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Featured Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jordan Henshaw, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    It is customary to cites sources when referring to them. So the king of Tyre is figuratively referred to as the covering cherub but when it comes to the dying and being trampled underfoot part it is the covering cherub this happens to not the king of Tyre?
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Read the post again and your post I was addressing. We were not specifically discussing ECT and/or Annihilation. I was addressing the shortcoming of abductive reasoning.
     
  3. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    I offered to link you the journal article but you have not asked for it.

    The idea of paralleling the two entails that it will move in and out of view. Parts will relate to satan exclusively and others to the king. I think both can be in view here as satan does take on the appearance of a classically cythonic being.
     
  4. Colter

    Colter Member

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    God cant do everything, he has a nature, he cannot do the ungodlike thing! An infinite God torturing a finite human that God allowed some higher being to fool, requires just a grain of common sense to deny!
     
  5. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    Still have no idea. It has often been the case in this thread that we do not understand the point you are trying to make.

    Abductive reasoning is a valid form of reasoning. Almost all of apologetics on the existence of God and the Resurrection are abductive so be careful in what you choose to destroy in your pursuit of ECT. If you can make a better case for ECT using a higher tier of reasoning then I invite you to do so.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  6. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Yep. Do you know why? Because he said that the wages of sin is DEATH and that the gift of God is eternal life. He didn't say that the punishment for sin is eternal conscious torment. He can't go back on his word.

    The view of Annihilationism is this:

    "The wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    That pretty much sums it up.

    Here's another way of putting it:

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in Him shall not PERISH, but would have eternal LIFE."

    The view of ECT is this:

    "The wages of sin is eternal life in torment, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in Him shall not suffer eternal TORMENT, but would have eternal LIFE."


    It just so happens that only one of those beliefs is biblical.

    And you still have like 8 questions to answer, and you didn't answer my follow up.

    Ask me any question and I will easily answer it without delay.
     
  7. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Strangely, after reading dozens of your posts, I still don't know what you're position on this is. I mean I know you are trying to support ECT, but you STILL haven't provided a coherent argument against the opening statement. I have asked you MANY questions for you to answer from whatever belief system you have, and you STILL have only answered ONE.

    You can keep nitpicking at little words here and there, but if you can't make a coherent, big picture rebuttal to the opening statement, which you have yet to do, you can't possibly achieve anything, and you're just treading water, wasting time.

    Let's start with question 1: What does the Tree of Life mean to you?

    Furthermore, I find it very strange that you are the only person on this thread who seems to be supporting ECT, despite the fact that Annihilationism isn't even taken seriously by most churches.
     
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I don't need to tell God He can't do that. I already know He can't do that. You know how I know? Simple. In order for ECT to be true of humans, that requires that they, too, receive eternal life. Anyone sticking to context though, and when it comes to the subject of eternal life, that is not once promised to the unsaved who get cast into the LOF. The ECT doctrine would have us believe that eternal life is universal, and that everyone receives it, thus become immortal, including the lost who are cast into the LOF.

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Obviously death and eternal life are polar opposites. That means the death meant here has to be the opposite of the eternal life meant here, therefore meaning eternal death. That is the opposite of eternal life. But if death is instead meaning ECT, that's not the opposite of eternal life, that's the exact same thing as eternal life, the only difference being, where one is living out this eternal life. But it's still eternal life either way, yet the text indicates the wages of sin is the exact opposite of eternal life, it says it is death instead.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I would be happy to answer (When I have more time).

    But I am curious as to your thoughts on Revelation 21:8. How do you explain the "Second Death" not being like the "First Death"?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    See my [post #25] this thread.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire according to Revelation 20:14, right?

    Well, 1 Corinthians 15:26 says,

    “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”​

    So okay. Let's recap.

    #1. Death and hell cast into Lake of Fire.
    #2. Death is destroyed (Which is the last enemy).

    So yes. Things are destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
    The entity known as death will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

    Jesus says in Matthew 10:28:

    “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”

    Alright. Contrast time here.

    Fear not them that can kill the body.
    But fear the One (Jesus) who can DESTROY both body and soul in hell [i.e. Gehenna or the Lake of Fire].

    Also, you are still ignoring the contrast made between the "Second Death" and the "First Death." If the word "Death" does not mean "Death" and is totally unlike the "First Death" then we cannot say it is a sequel to the first.
     
  12. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    He's ignoring a lot of things.
     
  13. brakelite3

    brakelite3 Newbie

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    Psalm 37:1 ¶ « A Psalm of David. » Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
    2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
    3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
    4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
    5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
    6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.
    7 ¶ Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
    8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.
    9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
    12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
    13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
    14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
    15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
    16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
    17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
    18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
    19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
    20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
    21 ¶ The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
    22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
    23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.
    24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.
    25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
    26 He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed.
    27 Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
    28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
    29 The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.
    30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
    31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
    32 The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.
    33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.
    34 ¶ Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
    35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
    36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
    37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
    38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
    39 But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.
    40 And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

    First, I wonder how many supporters of ECT read the above? If you did read it, do you believe it? When compared to other scriptures throughout the Bible that repeat this theme constantly and consistently, and in many cases specifically applying the principles of destruction to the entire person, not just the flesh, what justification is there when one considers the whole of scripture to defend ECT? Even in the above, we read clearly that the rewards for the righteous as perceived by the author are eternal and spiritual...let us not limit the rewards for the wicked in the same sentence as being limited to the flesh and pertaining to their life on the earth.
     
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  14. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Most haven't read John 3:16 either.
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Well you talked all around my post but didn't address what I said. Just a different version of "I'm right and your're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"
    But what it doesn't say is "The wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgement then a second death." I only see one death per person.
    Isaiah 14:9-11
    Ezekiel 32:19-21
    Ezekiel 32:30-31
    Luke 16:22-31
     
  16. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Um...ok. Wow. :sigh:

    What does death mean?

    Care to elaborate???

    I already addressed this in the opening statement.

    You still have all those questions that are still unanswered. Let's start with the first:

    What does the Tree of Life mean to you?
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Evidently the Hell, no! crowd has not read this proof text in-context.
    Psalm 37:1 ¶ « A Psalm of David. » Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
    2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
    The wicked will be cut down like grass and wither as the green herb, in this life. This says nothing about annihilation.
    10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    The righteous will look for the wicked in this world and they won't be there. The righteous will not be looking all over heaven for the wicked. Nothing about annihilation.
    14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
    15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
    The wicked drew the sword and bent the bow, to attack the righteous, their sword will pierce their own hearts and their bows broken, in this life, nothing about annihilation.
    17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
    The arms of the wicked will be broken in this life, nothing about annihilation
    22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
    The wicked will be cut off like the grass, in this life, vs. 2, nothing about annihilation.
    34 ¶ Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
    36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
    Te wicked will be cut off like the grass vs. 2. The righteous will look for the wicked in this world, they will not be looking all over heaven for the wicked. Nothing about annihilation.
    38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
    The wicked will be cut off like the grass, verse 2, Nothing about annihilation.
     
  18. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Do you want it to use the specific word, "annihilation" or something?

    Here's one (in one translation at least)

    Isaiah 34:2

    What does the Tree of Life mean to you?
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This is a discussion group I'm not here to play 20 questions. Tell me your view, in your own words, not a copy/paste, and we'll go from there.
    I already did earlier in this thread. Which has not been addressed.
    I doubt it, probably nothing but the same old everything is figurative cop-out. Every early church father who quotes or refers to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual. Which opening statement where?

    As I said I'm not here to play 20 questions. Give me your view, in your own words not a copy/paste, and I'll prove you wrong.
     
  20. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    What does the Tree of Life mean to you?
     
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