• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jordan Henshaw, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    The bible distinctly teaches that immortality is a gift given to the elect only, the bible repeatedly describes the wicked as being destroyed, burned up, and killed (souls included), and the bible demonstrates the nature of God’s wrath against unrighteousness by unleashing it unto Jesus in the form of physical death after momentary spiritual separation, and not eternal conscious torment.





    Point 1:
    The bible specifically states more than 34 times throughout scripture that immortality is given as a gift to the righteous only. In Genesis, God casts Adam and Eve out of the garden specifically to protect them from the curse of immortality.

    1 John 3:15; Mark 10:17; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:18; John 3:16; John 5:39; John 6:54; John 6:68; John 10:28; John 17:2; John 17:3; Acts 13:48; Romans 2:7; Romans 5:21; Romans 6:23; 1 Timothy 6:19; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 2:25; 1 John 3:15; 1 John 5:11; 1 John 5:13; 1 John 5:20; Jude 1:21; Genesis 3:22; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 22:2; Revelation 22:14; John 4:14; Revelation 21:6; 1 Corinthians 15:53; 1 Corinthians 15:54; 1 Timothy 6:16





    Point 2:
    The bible expressly states that the wicked shall be destroyed, slaughtered, and burned to ashes repeatedly throughout scripture. Our example of what will happen to the wicked is Sodom, which is no longer burning.

    Mathew 10:28; Romans 6:23; James 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 5:16; Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8; Philippians 3:19; Psalm 145:20; Mathew 7:13; Psalm 68:2; John 3:16; John 10:28; Jude 1:7





    Point 3:
    If the punishment for sin was eternal conscious torment, Jesus must still be dead. Or else his tiny sacrifice of simply death must be meaningless in the face of God’s eternal anger.

    Isaiah 53:5-6; John 10:11; 1 Peter 2:24; Mark 10:45; Hebrews 10:9; Romans 3:25; 1 Peter 3:18; Ephesians 5:25; Leviticus 16:10; 1 John 3:16; Deuteronomy 21:22





    The supporters of eternal conscious torment use the following passages as core support:
    1.And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” - Isaiah 66:22-24

    Ellicot’s Commentary for English Readers Isaiah 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." - “...devoured by worms, or given to the flames. Taken strictly, therefore, the words do not speak of the punishment of the souls of men after death, but of the defeat and destruction upon earth of the enemies of Jehovah…Even so taken, however, with this wider range, it is still a question whether the words are to be taken literally or figuratively (though this, perhaps, is hardly a question), whether the bodies, which represent souls, are thought of as not destroyed, but only tormented, or as consumed to nothing, by the fire and by the worm…”

    The commentators are unsure whether or not the worm is literal or figurative. They seem to take the side of ECT, but admit it isn’t clear either way.

    The book of Isaiah is known for being the most poetic, figurative book in the Old Testament.

    Also,

    Quench - the definition of quench
    verb (used with object)

    2. to put out or extinguish (fire, flames, etc.).

    3. to cool suddenly by plunging into a liquid, as in tempering steel by immersion in water.





    2. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” - Daniel 12:1-2

    This simply means that their name will forever be held in contempt; that they will never be redeemed. Such as how the people of Sodom are held in contempt even today. 4,000 years later, and most people seem to know that the Sodomites were bad people. Everlasting contempt. The Sodomites will never be redeemed.





    3. “It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.” - Mathew 18:6-9

    “In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.” – Jude 1:7

    Sodom is no longer burning, despite having been burned by this eternal fire.





    4. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Mathew 25:31-46

    Eternal in result, not in cause. In other words, the death of a human being is eternal (at least if dead for a certain period of time). A dead human will never come back to life. The result of that death lasts forever and ever. But the person isn’t suffering eternal death. The process of death itself is not eternal. It is quick.

    Likewise, God’s punishment for the wicked is eternal in result, or in consequence. But certainly not eternal in process, or in action.





    5. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” - Revelation 14:9-11

    For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation” – Isaiah 34:8-11

    How can an owl, raven, pelican, and hedgehog dwell in this land if it is burning forever?

    Also, the symbolic imagery of “smoke rising from a destroyed city” is not new: “…and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace.” – Genesis 19:28. This imagery is a symbol. The prophet Isaiah is best known for being one of the more poetic writers of the bible. Put two and two together and it makes sense that he would use such imagery and it is perfectly reasonable to believe that he is speaking figuratively when he says the smoke will “go up forever and ever”. In other words, he is speaking of the permanent destruction of the city. While the physical smoke may have dissipated, the memory of it will remain forever and ever. It symbolically will continue to rise.

    http://rethinkinghell.com/2017/04/a-primer-on-revelation-149-11/





    6. And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10; 14-15

    This is talking about the Beast, Devil, and False Prophet. Not humans.

    http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2015/12/a-primer-on-revelation-2010/





    7. “Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." - Luke 16:19-31

    If this passage is meant to be taken as a literal picture of the end times, and not as a metaphorical parable, as proponents of eternal conscious torment suggest, a plethora of massive problems arise. For example, how can a man in hell speak to a man in heaven like he was face to face, despite the “great chasm” that separates them? Also, how can all the righteous fit into Abraham’s bosom? Also, how can Heaven be anywhere near perfect if all the screams from people being eternally tortured in hell are clearly audible?

    It is clear that this passage, while uncharacteristic of most other parables, is not meant to be taken as a literal picture of the end times.





    Conclusion:
    The bible distinctly teaches that immortality is a gift given to the elect only, the bible repeatedly describes the wicked as being destroyed, burned up, and killed (souls included), and the bible demonstrates the nature of God’s wrath against unrighteousness by unleashing it unto Jesus in the form of physical death after momentary spiritual separation, and not eternal conscious torment.

    Annihilationism is therefore...biblical.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +721
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    To add to what you submitted, there is the following perspective to take into consideration as well.

    Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


    This indicates eating of the tree of life gives one the ability to live forever.

    Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


    I would think the overcomers are meaning the saved. This verse indicates that Jesus will give the saved to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


    This verse indicates what is being meant by the midst of the paradise of God in Revelation 2:7. It's meaning in the new Jerusalem.

    I'm pretty positive that those that get cast into the lake of fire, that they won't have access to the tree of life. What then is the source of their eternal life in the lake of fire, assuming eternal conscience torment were the correct position? After all, one can't burn forever consciously without first having the ability to live forever.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  3. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    It's really strange how the modern church just flat out ignores things like this.
     
  4. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

    +7,240
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Democrat
    I encountered the argument in General Theology a couple of years ago, really didn't participate but enjoyed a very interesting exchange. It was a gentlemanly discussion and the arguments were pretty uncomplicated. Before I had encountered the term 'annihilationism' I heard someone defending the very on for some common sense reasons. The most interesting for me was simply, what is the point of torturing someone for eternity. Somehow the topic get popular on here so I went through and did an exposition of all the requisite texts. All of them except the one late in Revelations allow for annihilation, and that one leaves a little wiggle room.

    I also took a look at the OT concept of death and the grave and it's consistently the end, the concept of hell is a New Testament one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  5. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

    +1,100
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I think another clear indication that the lake of fire is a pit for the purpose of annihilating a thing is the fact that death and hell are thrown into it. So there is no longer death or hell because it has been destroyed.

    I often wonder if Greek mythology isn't partially responsible for the view of ECT due to the translation of sheol into Hades.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  6. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

    +7,240
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Democrat
    One guy I encountered early had an explanation how the rich man, in the rich man and Lazarus story, was tormented by the flames. Hell is a kind of holding area in close proximity to the lake of fire, this theory was it floated kind of like an island above it. I've talked casually to other Christians about the concept since and they kind of respond with a kind of, hum, interesting. It's not something I would ever be dogmatic about just something worth considering.
     
  7. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    Hmmmm. And which bible verse explicitly supports said theory?
     
  8. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

    +7,240
    Calvinist
    Single
    US-Democrat
    No, just the poster. I thought it made sense.
     
  9. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    I wish someone would defend ECT - those debates are really fun.

    Anyone???
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    That is a often repeated argument with no, zero, none, credible, verifiable, historical evidence. But consider
    this, according to 1. the Jewish Encyclopedia, 2. Encyclopedia Judaica and 3. the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, and 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
    .....The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus would have known what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
    Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
    Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
    Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
    “Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
    (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
    G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
    “Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
    The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
     
  11. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    OK, so maybe that particular valley wasn't Jerusalem's garbage dump.

    What does it even matter?
     
  12. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

    +1,100
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    What is a often repeated argument with no, zero, none, credible, verifiable, historical evidence? Just in general could you refine your response.
     
  13. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

    +1,144
    United States
    Charismatic
    Married
    And yet Christians still die daily???? You know why? Because they still sin, usually 'daily'. Only problem with the rest of your POINTS of analogy is this. They don't line up with your last comment of your premise above. IOW, Jesus didn't go to eternal hell and pay that price eternally. Orthodoxy wants to 'change the price for sin' with Jesus. That doesn't wash for me.

    And, following your logic above; neither did Jesus have to be eternally annihilated to pay the price for sin. Hmmmm???? What did He have to do? Dead body on the cross...Price paid. Why? Because 'that body/flesh' NEVER SINNED, therefore 'that body was immortal' Jesus had to surrender his spirit willingly into the hands of the Father for that body to die and pay the price for sin. "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.

    Had Jesus not done this, his immortal body could have bled out and he'd still be alive on that cross.

    So now we're back to the biblical sentence for sin, which was physical death. That was the promise to Adam and Eve. And as far as the nominal churches misunderstanding of; "the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." more literal translations reveal the nuance of the Hebraism of that statement.

    YLT GEN 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it - dying thou dost die.'

    IOW the day they ate, they started the dying, or the death process. Same kind of sentence given today in courts when they say; "you shall be hung by the neck until dead." Same kind of understanding in the Green Mile where they said "Dead man walking." to those on 'death row'. Sin doesn't cause immediate death (usually). "As for the soul that sins IT SHALL surely die."

    So, yes the soul can die the flesh can die. But no scripture supports that man's spirit, which was made in the image of God can die. For all spirits are eternal.

    JOH 4:24 God is spirit,


    And as far as the orthodox misunderstanding of 'their spirit died that day'...poppycock. Purely non biblical isogesis. It is the spirit that gives life to the flesh. And when Jesus raised the girl from the dead "Her spirit returned." And that's what gave/gives the flesh animating life. And when does the flesh die? When sin has become "finished/perfected/completed/full-grown."

    JAM 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.

    The problem with these last 3 Points concerning your conclusion for me is this;

    Truth has nothing to do with the conclusion if the methodology falls short.


     
  14. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    "neither did Jesus have to be eternally annihilated to pay the price for sin." - Um... no. The wages of sin is death. That's the price that Jesus paid. Yes, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, but that is just one verse talking about the unrighteous humans specifically. There are plenty of verses that deal specifically with the punishment for sin itself and it is always death.

    "Had Jesus not done this, his immortal body could have bled out and he'd still be alive on that cross." - I'm not sure what verse you're basing this conclusion based off of, but it is insignificant, as we both agree the price he paid was simply death.

    "But no scripture supports that man's spirit, which was made in the image of God can die. For all spirits are eternal." - OK. I have just shown you 34 verses that tell us that eternal life/immortality is a gift given only to the unrighteous. If you can find just one verse that tells us that the "spirit" of every man is eternal, I will reconsider my position.

    "JAM 1:15 'Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.'" - This is figurative language. "Desire" can't be given birth to. This is symbolism. What does this have to do with anything, anyway?

    "Truth has nothing to do with the conclusion if the methodology falls short." - Sure. It's just a common practice in debating and really just writing in general to sum up the whole post/essay/speech in a conclusion paragraph at the end.
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Interesting. I posted a five page post, you ignored the bulk of the post and ask only one question. My post among other things disproved the argument that when Jesus referred to the "fires of gehenna" etc. He was supposedly referring to the valley adjacent to Jerusalem.
     
  16. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

    +721
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    Before you know it there will be plenty in here attempting to do exactly that. You can bank on it. I'm only up to this post so far, and noticed there are already numerous posts being submitted in this thread. Maybe some of those posts are from ECT defenders. I don't know yet, but getting ready to find out as I continue to read on in this thread.
     
  17. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

    +4,595
    Presbyterian
    Single
    It doesn't appear that there was a single, explicit Jewish model. Apparently many Jews believed (and still believe) that hell is temporary, at least for many people. That's probably thd case in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. It speaks of Hades, not Gehenna, and most commentators see Hades in the NT as temporary, whatever they may think of Gehenna.
     
  18. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    You could have written a hundred page post, but if it isn't relevant to the thread, I'm not going to spend a lot of time dealing with it.

    It seemed to me like the whole post was trying to disprove the notion that Gehenna is a trash dump.

    Notice that you're the first one to mention Gehenna, the trash dump idea, and almost every idea you brought up in your whole post.

    I don't see how it is relevant to what is being argued on this thread.
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Your entire post but specifically the final sentence.
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,452
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    It doesn't appear that there was a single, explicit Jewish model. Apparently many Jews believed (and still believe) that hell is temporary, at least for many people. That's probably thd case in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. It speaks of Hades, not Gehenna, and most commentators see Hades in the NT as temporary, whatever they may think of Gehenna.

    Speculation, assumption and presupposition much?
     
Loading...