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Featured Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jordan Henshaw, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    John 3:16
     
  2. DarylFawcett

    DarylFawcett Ticket Support Manager | HR Manager Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Then there are the following texts that say that the dead know not anything and that their thoughts end (perish) at death.:

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Psalms 146:3 KJV Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
    4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
     
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  3. DarylFawcett

    DarylFawcett Ticket Support Manager | HR Manager Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    There is this text that says that a soul that sins will die:

    Ezekiel 18:3 KJV As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
    4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Eccl 9:5 is often quoted as a proof text for annihilationism. But even as you quoted it, in context, it says "the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; ...under the sun." Note the phrase "neither have they any more reward" does that also apply to the righteous after they die?
    The phrase "under the sun" occurs 29 times in Eccl., 6 times in chap. 9

    Ecc 9:3
    (3) This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead.
    Ecc 9:6
    (6) Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.
    Ecc 9:9
    (9) Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.
    Ecc 9:11
    (11) I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all.
    Ecc 9:13
    (13) I also saw under the sun this example of wisdom that greatly impressed me:
    This out-of-context proof text is not about man's eternal fate but what happens in this world "under the sun." This same writer did not know where a man's spirit went after he dies in chap. 3
    Ecc 3:21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
    In this passage the psalmist is speaking what he observes with his senses. In the 2 passages I cited God Himself is speaking.

    ISV Psa 146:4
    (4) When they stop breathing, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans evaporate!
    NIV Psa 146:4
    (4) When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.
     
  6. DarylFawcett

    DarylFawcett Ticket Support Manager | HR Manager Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Until they are resurrected at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, I would say that it also applies to the righteous.
     
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  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The word translated "perish" in Jn 3;16 is ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi.
    ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
    (1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned]. The definition from one of, if not the, most highly accredited NT Greek lexicons.

    ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
    1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
    a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26,3 (cf.Sir 20:22).
    b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
    b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
    2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
    a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
    b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
    . Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
    BAG Greek Lexicon online
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I note you ignored the bulk of my post. That is not what the writer of Eccl. said. Shall I remind you "the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward" The writer said nothing about after the resurrection.
     
  9. DarylFawcett

    DarylFawcett Ticket Support Manager | HR Manager Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    You asked a question in that post and I answered that question.
     
  10. DavidPT

    DavidPT Premil, the correct position of course

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    Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


    Has this passage been brought up in this thread yet? This one is typically used by the ECT crowd for support of their doctrine.

    Note what verse 12 says. If the lake of fire is meant, what would verse 12 have to do with that?

    Verse 10 states----The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation


    Compare that with the following.

    Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

    It seems to me the context in Revelation 14:10 has to do with the vials of wrath and not the lake of fire instead.

    Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


    This is said between the 6th and 7th vial, possibly explaining Revelation 14:12.

    Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.


    Ezekiel 38:22 perhaps explains Revelation 14:10----and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    Which also might be referring to this.

    Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


    In Revelation 14:11----and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name----that can perhaps be explained by the 7 vials being unleashed on them. If that involves days or even longer, it makes sense they wouldn't have rest day or night if they are being bombarded by the plagues via these vials. And when that same verse says----And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever---that is hyperbole and not meant to be taken in the literal sense. The following verses IMO proves that point.

    Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
    3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    Obviously this takes place on the earth. Eventually there will be a new heavens and a new earth. Is one to then believe this scene depicted in verse 3 above, is to be like that forever?
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    "Eternal Conscious Torment" is a Belief Founded Upon Not Properly Understanding The Word "Forever."

    First, the majority of God's Word does not specifically say that the wicked will burn alive in flames for all time. Revelation 14:10-11 is the only passage that appears to say that at first glance (of which I explain below). Inferences or assumptions are made on the words used within a select few small verses (without looking at how those words are used elsewhere in Scripture).

    Second, the fire is "everlasting" and or "unquenchable" for the amount of time that the Lake of Fire exists. But the Lake of Fire will not exist for all eternity. How so? Well, in the future, "...God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4). "...for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;.." (Revelation 21:1). The Lake of Fire is a part of the old heavens and old Earth and not the New Heavens and New Earth.

    But how can the words like "forever" and "everlasting" be used in a temporal sense?

    Well, in the Bible, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15. For it says,

    "For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;"
    (Philemon 1:15 KJV).​

    This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

    15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
    16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
    (Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).​

    In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means.

    But what about words like "for ever and ever"? Surely this must be talking about an endless eternity, right? Again, this would not be true according to the Bible. For Jeremiah 7 says,

    "Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever." (Jeremiah 7:7).​

    Are we to assume that certain faithful Old Testament saints will dwell in the land here upon this Earth forever and ever while the rest of the saints dwell upon the New Earth? Surely not. "For ever and ever" is used in context to how long that promise will be fulfilled and will last (Which would be with the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ).

    Are you still not convinced?

    There are other examples where the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

    Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.

    It tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

    In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

    • In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

    • The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

    • Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

    • Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

    • The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

    • Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

    • An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

    • Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

    • The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

    • Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

    • The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

    • The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

    • The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
    Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

    • God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

    • "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

    • Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

    • The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

    • “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 (as mentioned above) where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​


    Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
    http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

    Side Note:

    But what about those who worship the beast as not having rest day and night in Revelation 14:11? Well, this is saying that those who worship the beast will have no rest day and night WHILE or DURING the TIME they worship the beast. For Revelation 16:2 says they had painful boils.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

    The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

    Isaiah 66:22-24

    "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."​

    For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihiation):

    2 Thessalonians 1:9

    "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."​

    Malachi 4:1-3


    “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”​

    2 Peter 2:6 NHEB


    "...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”​

    Psalms 68:2

    "....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

    Job 4:8-9

    “Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”​

    Psalms 92:7 NLT

    "Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."​

    Deuteronomy 7:10

    “And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”​

    Psalms 1:6

    “For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”​

    Matthew 10:28

    “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”​

    Revelation 21:8

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."


    The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:


    A. Destruction of the Devil:


    Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

    12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​
    ‭‭

    Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

    Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

    “Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
    B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":


    1 Corinthians 15:26

    “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”​
     
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  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The End: - Saints Live with God for All Eternity.
    (There Will Be No More Pain, Sorrow, Death, etc.)

    Revelation 21:4-7

    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And he said unto me, "Write: for these words are true and faithful." And he said unto me, "It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

    Revelation 21:3 b


    "Behold, ...God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."​

    Isaiah 9:6-7

    "...unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever."​

    Daniel 7:14 ESV

    "And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed."​

    Revelation 22:3 b
    , Revelation 22:5 b

    "...and his servants shall serve him:" ... "and they shall reign for ever and ever."​

    1 Timothy 1:17 NIV

    "Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen"​

    1 Peter 5:11

    "To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."​
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Common Objections to Conditional Immortality:

    #1. Matthew 25:46.

    Well, in Matthew 25:46:

    Everlasting is the parallel (which speak of the eternal consequences).
    Both life and death (destruction, i.e. the punishment) have eternal consequences or effects. But life and death (punishment) is the contrast.

    So the verse is one part parallel and one part contrast.
    Now, the "everlasting punishment" is said to be "everlasting destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which is death.

    So the contrast is life (reward) and death (punishment).
    And everlasting is the parallel.

    Anyways, if ECT was true, the verse would say,

    "And these shall go away into everlasting life to be tortured in flames: but the righteous into life eternal to be in peaceful bliss."
    (Matthew 25:46 ECT Influenced Translation).
    But the verse doesn't really say that, though. In fact, no verse in Scripture says that the wicked have eternal life or immortality. But assumptions are made whereby it turns God into being some kind of non-stop angry kind of God who is beyond any kind of fair justice. But what about the loving God who is long suffering and not willing that any should PERISH? What about the God who so loved the world?​

    #2. Revelation 20:10

    What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?

    Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.

    "for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
    "for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
    "for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson
    In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

    Revelation 20:10 Darby
    "And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."

    For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.

    So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

    This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).

    Will the devil really be destroyed?

    Well, you may or may not know this, but Isaiah 14:12-20 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 are well known verses amongst Christians that talk about the devil. They are passages that describe both the devil and the evil rulers who were living during that time. Anyways, Ezekiel 28:18says that the fire will devour the devil and he will be brought to ashes. Isaiah 14:19 says the devil's carcass will be trodden under foot. Meaning he will be nothing but a charred up corpse or a destroyed spiritual body.​
     
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  15. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    Here is the verse.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    This part in blue here is echó . It is future tense, and perish is not given a future tense because as soon as we are born we are perishing without Christ. It does not refer to the first death as nearly all will experience that. It refers to the perishing unto the second death. Though perishing is slow it ultimately concludes with the finality of death which is an eternal state of affairs. Death is eternal for all states of affairs where one remains dead. Annihilation is a term which can also be viewed simply as the eternal state of a affairs where one remains dead which is entailed by perishing in John 3:16.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Exactly; And why compare the "Second Death" (i.e. the Lake of Fire) mentioned in Revelation 21:8 with the "First Death" (Which is physical death)?

    Physical death is something that is final.
    I find it strange that the "Second Death" is totally unlike the "First Death" in the worldview of ECT.

    In any event, I will pray that folks might be able to see this.

    May God bless you today.

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.


    Side Note:

    Oh, and I used to believe in ECT, and I tried to defend it. But in time, God talked to my heart about it and I was led to the truth on this with the Scriptures. I believe tradition in a person's church can be strong. They cannot fathom the idea that their church (or the majority of churches) may be wrong about something like this.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Thank you for this unsupported opinion. How many semesters of Biblical Greek did you say you had? I don't know what you mean by a word being an "echo." I'm not familiar with that as a grammatical term. Perhaps you should read the definition of apollumi which I posted and the many verses which were listed.
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Out-of-context proof text. Who is the "covering cherub" in Ezek 28:18?
    Ezekiel 28:12-14
    (12) 'Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say unto him: Thus saith the Lord GOD:Thou seal most accurate, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty,
    (13) thou wast in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the carnelian, the topaz, and the emerald, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the carbuncle, and the smaragd, and gold; the workmanship of thy settings and of thy sockets was in thee, in the day that thou wast created they were prepared.
    (14) Thou wast the far-covering cherub; and I set thee, so that thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of stones of fire.
    The king of Tyre is called the covering cherub. Isa 14:19 says nothing about a covering cherub.

     
  19. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

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    Strongs 2192. ἔχω echó. I will edit to make that more clear as a greek word.

    Again I am making an abductive argument. If you wish to challenge that then all you have to do is show your hypothesis to be more likely. I did not detect such a challenge in your reply so it continues to remain the best explanation of the verse.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Please show me any verse(s) which states that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they die?
     
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