• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jordan Henshaw, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Viren

    Viren Contributor

    +1,556
    Christian
    Single
    According to 1 Corinthians 15:45 "The first Adam became a living soul; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

    The first Adam died, because he was a living soul. The last Adam is Christ and has eternal life as a life-giving spirit. To have eternal life a person has to be born of Spirit. John 3:1.

    The second death is just that, death. The ungodly who are cast into the lake of fire will experience final death. The beast, false prophet, Satan, the horse named death and hell aren't literal beings. They are symbols. For example, Jesus even called Peter Satan. Matt 16:23. Paul says "The God of peace will soon trample Satan under your feet" Romans 16:20. Satan is the source of lies namely your carnal mind. He isn't a literal being. The Greek word basanizo translated as torment can also mean touchstone. Everything that caused evil will be a touchstone day and night for ages and ages after the apocalypse or revelation of Jesus Christ as a reminder of the great things God has done.
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,476
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Would a man being tormented in fire be speaking rationally or reasonably? Or would he beg for anything which might ease his suffering? Where does Jesus say or imply that the incident of Lazarus and the rich man was the norm for everyone?

    The rich man was not in heaven he was in hades.

    Jonah was in fear for his life, thinking he might die at any moment and of course Jonah could not possibly be using "sheol" hyperbolically, could he? I have heard people say that this, that or the other was "hell." The meaning of a word is not determined by a single usage. Can punishing a child save him from the grave?

    Proverbs 23:13-14
    (13) Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
    (14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

    Are you implying that scripture is not my foundation? I trust the writings of Irenaeus, e.g. who was a student of Polycarp who was a student of John than anonymous "Viren" online. If you think any of the ECF are wrong, prove it. Those who ignore their past are doomed to repeat it. In the Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek, one of, if not the, most highly accredited lexicons available the ECF are cited as authorities for the definition of many words.
    .....In addition to Luke 16:19-31 the Bible also speaks about the dead in sheol moving speaking etc.
    In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

    Isaiah 4:9-11 (KJV)
    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
    [ . . . ]
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
    Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.

    Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

    Ezekiel 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Ezekiel 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
     
  3. Viren

    Viren Contributor

    +1,556
    Christian
    Single
    I don't believe a horse named death will be tormented. To me that's symbolism.
     
  4. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    +2,585
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    No, my question was correct.

    The OP makes the belief a fact.

    Again, you miss the point.

    According to scriptures, Jesus spoke more on the topic of eternal torment" than any other topic.

    Yes, I do partially live a Christian life for a couple of reasons:
    1. Its the right thing to do according to scriptures and my belief in God.
    2. Yes, I fear endless torments for all eternity.
    For one, I have said previously that being an EMT at one point in my life, taught me that no matter the pain, no matter the injury, if a person knows there will eventually be an end to it, they can/will endure it.

    I shattered my ankle 40 years ago. It hurt like a ***! But, as soon as I got to the hospital, and as soon as I was put to sleep for surgery, the pain ceased. I can endure almost anything in life as long as I have assurance that the pain will end.

    What kind of stupid question is that?!?

    As an EMT, I was also a volunteer fireman. Of course any father would try and saved their children. But, in saying so, I must admit that there are times when that is an impossibility. I've seen family members nearly on the verge of death just knowing a loved one was in a fire, and there was absolutely nothing they or we could do about it.

    Absolutely. You'll get no argument from me on that.

    But you still miss the point.

    If annihilationism is in fact, a fact, there is really no motivation to be saved. Sure, you could and spend eternity in heaven. But, you could as well live as you want to because after all, there is the "escape clause": Annihilation.

    Sooner or later, you will eventually burn up into nothing. There is an "escape" from all that.

    Annihilation.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  5. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    +2,585
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Let me quote Mike Duran:

    "But there’s a single reason I do not seriously consider Annihilationism. It’s this:

    Annihilationism does not seem to provoke eternal urgency.

    And Jesus oozed eternal urgency.

    When the Bible speaks of hell it’s always with a grim, relentless tone. You do not want to go here. And if the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is any indication, if you did go there, you would want to rush back and beg your family to avoid that place at all costs. Annihilation doesn’t seem to have such a compulsion. I mean, if the worse that’s going to happen to me is that I’m going to… disappear, why not eat, drink, and be merry?

    If the punishment for not surrendering to my Maker is that I’ll just be erased, then why not live the way I want? Sure, eternal life might be better. But if I’m not around to even know the difference, who cares?"

    Can Annihilationism be Hell?

    Which proves my point.

    One last thing. If the Greek word "aionion" does not actually mean "eternal" as it is used in Mt. 25:46, how can anybody be sure that when Jesus uses the same Greek word in Jn. 3:16, it doesn't mean the same?

    If annihilationsim is true, then "eternal punishment" does not mean what is says. Ergo, eternal life cannot mean eternal. At some point if the unsaved just burn up into nothing, then those in heaven must at some point in time, also just imply "disappear".

    Eternal bliss. Great, wonderful!

    Burn up into nothing.

    If I'm not around, what am I missing out on?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2018
  6. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    +2,585
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    ClementofA, no matter what I say, your going to find fault with it.

    So here's what I'm going to do.

    "To keep the peace", I'll unsubscribe.

    I'm outta here.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,476
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I see several problems with this reply. The horse is not named death, the rider is. Horses can't sin. The Bible nowhere says anything about animals being subject to punishment for sin. The verse in question says nothing about horses being thrown into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    Note, his name that sat on him, the pale horse, was Death. I refer to this being as the angel of death whom we first encounter in Exo 12 and Eze 9. And I call the other being the demon of hell.
    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. But a being named "Death", see Rev 6:8, can be thrown into the lake of fire. "Hell" can conceivably be thrown into lake of fire but neither death nor hell are living so they have not and cannot die a first death so they cannot die a second death.
    .....Logically it is the the angel of death and the demon of hell, Rev 6:8, who are thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Nonsense. One motivation is to be with God & live forever. A second motivation is not to be non existent forever. A third motivation is to not suffer torments for X number of years. I previously gave you an example of trillions of millenniums of torments (which you brushed aside as if nothing).

    Furthermore, only a fool would choose to ignore all those motivations (listed above) in order to do what they want for the rest of their brief life, which could be over at any moment, & is at most several decades, knowing that they could have avoided the above stated torments & have enjoyed life for all eternity. Yes, foolish in the extreme.

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  9. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    +2,585
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Your problem:

    If in the strictest sense, if "eternal punishment" does not mean that, then by the same token, applying the same rule, "eternal life" does not mean what it says.

    If one can escape the lake of fire, and cease to exist, by rule, by the Greek, the at some point, even in heaven, one would cease to exist.

    And that point was also brought out!

    "Annihilationism Argument:

    It is asserted that the word "eternal" only means "belonging to the age to come." Therefore, "eternal" does not mean "everlasting" or "forever and ever."

    A Biblical Response:

    First, while in some texts the word "eternal" (Greek, aionios) may refer to "the age to come" or "age" (Luke 1:70, etc.) in Matthew 25:46 we read:

    And these will go away into eternal [aionios] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aionios] life.

    The Greek word [aionios] is used numerous times in the New Testament. In addition to being used for, an eternal covenant (Heb 13:20), an eternal kingdom (2 Pet 1:11), an eternal dominion (1 Tim 6:16), an eternal gospel (Rev 14:6), an eternal redemption (Heb 9:12), an eternal salvation (Heb 5:9), an eternal inheritance (Heb 9:15), an eternal comfort (2 Thess 2:16), an eternal weight of glory (2 Cor 4:17-18; cf. 2 Tim 2:10; 1 Pet 5:10), and an eternal house (2 Cor 5:1), it is also used (1) three times to describe God's eternal nature (Rom 16:26; 1 Tim 6:16; Heb 9:14), (2) numerous times to describe the unending happiness of the redeemed (Rom 5:21; 6:23; 1 John 1:2, et. al.); and (3) five times to refer to the punishment of the wicked (Matt 18:8; 25:41, 46; 2 Thess 1:9; Jude 1:7).

    In Matthew 25:46, the identical word "eternal" (Greek, aionios) is mentioned twice: (1) once in regard to the righteous and (2) and again in regards to the unrighteous. So, if the punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is merely temporary and if the Annilhilationist is consistent in their interpretation method, then Heaven, God's covenant, God's kingdom, God's dominion, the Gospel, the saint's redemption, the saint's salvation, the saint's inheritance, the saint's comfort, God's and the saint's glory, the saint's eternal home, the saint's happiness, AND God's very nature are all temporary too! If the Annihilationist doesn't believe in the necessary conclusion of their interpretation, then they need to repent and abandon the false doctrine of Annihilationism. If they fail to abandon Annihilationism then; "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

    In Matthew 25:46 the contrast is clear that there is a different quality of existence that is "endless" in both cases. Moreover, when this verse is read in its fuller context, including Matthew 25:41, speaking of the unbeliever in "eternal fire," a conscious state of torment and painful judgment is clearly understood. The "eternal fire" that unbelievers are cast into (Matt 25:41) is the same "eternal fire" the devil and his angels are cast into; where they are tormented "forever and ever" (Rev 20:10). Therefore, in context "eternal" must mean "forever and ever," "endless," "everlasting," or "eternity" (cf. 2 Thess 1:9). Hell is forever; it is an endless place of torment!

    Second, God lives "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 1:18; 10:6; 15:7), and glory, which includes God's holy and just wrath against the wicked (Isa 5:16; Rom 9:22-23; cf. Rev 18:20; 19:2-3), is to be given to him "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 1:6; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12), and since the righteous in Christ shall reign with him "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 22:5), then the wicked surely will be tormented day and night "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 20:10; cf. Rev 14:11).

    Third, "eternal life" means more than a mere "eternal existence." A rock has an existence, but it's not alive. Eternal life has a living beginning point; so does eternal damnation. John 3:36 states, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Here as in other places "eternal life" is spoken of as a present possession (John 5:24; 6:54; 1 John 5:11, 13). As "eternal life" is a present (John 17:3) and future reality (Matt 25:46), so the unbeliever is under the living "wrath of God" now (John 3:36) and in the future (Matt 25:46). So, eternity has already begun and will never end. The wrath of God upon the unbeliever has already begun; they are "condemned already" (John 3:18)."

    Source

    For the annihilationist to have a consistent theology, if Annihilationism is fact as it was said in the first post, if a person after their sin debt is paid in full they simply "burn up"/ "disappear", "vanish", go into a state of non-existence, they would also have to have the same theology about those who are saved. In 1,000,000 years, or 100,000,000 years they too would have to cease to exist.

    Therefore, for a strict consistent theology, to what end would it serve to to be saved to begin with. Either way, a person will cease to exist.

    But ultimately, it will boil down to this again:

    Good-bye!

    Unsubscribing.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Which, like the rest of your post, is irrelevant to the point i made (so i'm not going to bother responding to it here), & is addressed at the url below:

    Nonsense. One motivation is to be with God & live forever. A second motivation is not to be non existent forever. A third motivation is to not suffer torments for X number of years. I previously gave you an example of trillions of millenniums of torments (which you brushed aside as if nothing).

    Furthermore, only a fool would choose to ignore all those motivations (listed above) in order to do what they want for the rest of their brief life, which could be over at any moment, & is at most several decades, knowing that they could have avoided the above stated torments & have enjoyed life for all eternity. Yes, foolish in the extreme.

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2018
  11. Denadii

    Denadii Well-Known Member

    708
    +297
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You are reading that sooooo wrong! No such thing as Annihilationism
     
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

    +776
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    I haven't been to this thread for some time. Can you remind me where it has been undeniably proven in this thread that there is no such thing as Annihilationism?


    You also indicate that I'm reading that sooooo wrong! Until you first show me how I was, why should I just take your word for it?
     
  13. Denadii

    Denadii Well-Known Member

    708
    +297
    Canada
    Non-Denom
    Married
    OK David I started making you a list of your mistakes, but they are ALL based on one fact....I'll concentrate on that....God is lOVE. He is LIFE. Separate yourself from HIM and you've separated yourself from LOVE and LIFE. What do you have left? Your spirit cannot die but it has ALL the symptoms of death..Darkness, emptiness, etc...Plus....Those demons that share the place you are hate you and spend their time making you suffer. For eternity....You exist! But you have only pain and darkness....I would call that destroyed....On the other hand...God did not do that to you....You did it.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,476
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I haven't been to this thread for some time. Can you remind me where it has been undeniably proven in this thread that there is no such thing as Annihilationism?
    You also indicate that I'm reading that sooooo wrong! Until you first show me how I was, why should I just take your word for it?
    Where has it been undeniably proven in this thread, or any other thread, that there is such a thing as Annihilationism?
    Matthew 25:41
    (41) "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
    Matthew 25:46
    (46) "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
    How did a native Greek speaking early church father understand "eternal punishment?"
    Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    “‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Is that relevant? You said "Irrelevant not scripture":

    Then are also all your quotes re Jewish beliefs & opinions irrelevant? And your quotes of church fathers? And opinions of lexicons? And BDAG references to non scriptural usages of aionios? So you won't be quoting any of these ever again, since they are, as you say, "Irrelevant not scripture"?

    You also said:


    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,476
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Quite some brazen nerve, challenge my sources while you copy/paste the same meaningless quotes from the same unqualified websites over and over. As if somehow by endless repetition they can somehow be made relevant.
     
  17. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

    +2,585
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Bull.

    If eternal does not mean eternal, then "eternal punishment" is not a motive to be saved.

    If eternal does not mean eternal, then "eternal life" does not mean eternal life.

    If the doomed will escape by disappearing into nothingness, the same logic must be applied to those who are saved. Sooner or later eternal life will end.

    And like I said, if I am sentenced to the lake of fire, and know I will sooner or later "disappear" or slip into "non-existence", what would I be missing? Nothing!

    But have it your way.

    I am sick and tired of debating with you.

    Unsubscribing.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,153
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Once again your comments, including that above, are irrelevant to the point being made, which you have failed to address:

    Nonsense. One motivation is to be with God & live forever. A second motivation is not to be non existent forever. A third motivation is to not suffer torments for X number of years. I previously gave you an example of trillions of millenniums of torments (which you brushed aside as if nothing).

    Furthermore, only a fool would choose to ignore all those motivations (listed above) in order to do what they want for the rest of their brief life, which could be over at any moment, & is at most several decades, knowing that they could have avoided the above stated torments & have enjoyed life for all eternity. Yes, foolish in the extreme.

    Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
     
Loading...