• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jordan Henshaw, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Ah yes the ever popular internet screed "the concept of hell was copied from Greek mythology." But consider this.
    According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.


     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    The ever present illogical argument "Everybody knows,""It's a known fact""It's common knowledge" etc. etc.
    Those verses say no such thing! "Prince" does not mean "demon." And the mention of one prince does not make a multitude.
    I don't need the unsupported opinions of some anonymous person on the 'net.
     
  3. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    What does the Tree of Life mean to you?
     
  4. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    But he could have also meant death.

    You have proved nothing. You are just speculating.

    What does the Tree of Life mean to you?
     
  5. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    1 It means eternal in result.
    2 Do you not know what the word quench means? And the worm thing is a reference to poetic imagery in Isaiah.
    3 OK?
    4 OK?
    5 OK?
    6 OK?

    Is that all you have?

    Because I've got a bunch of questions I'd like you to answer.

    Let's start with the first:

    What does the Tree of Life mean to you?
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    +499
    Christian
    Married
    As usual you've set up a straw man. I was talking about ETC, not hell.

    Just keep posting your infallible Jewish commentaries.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,137
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Oh, and demon possession is also in the Bible, too (See Matthew 9:32-33, Matthew 12:22, Matthew 17:18, Mark 5:1-20, Mark 7:26-30, Luke 4:33-36, Luke 22:3; Acts 16:16-18). The point I was trying to make is that the real world confirms such a truth that is in the Bible.

    Well, I do not believe the Prince of Persia (who is a flesh and blood human man on the ground in Persia) could prevent an angel from coming to Daniel. It wouldn't make any sense to even say that. No human man can stop an angel. Angels have the ability to destroy cities and stuff (See the story of Sodom and Gomorrah and or this article here by Answers in Genesis).

    Revelation 12:7-8 says,
    “And there was war in heaven:Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

    Clearly good angels fight with bad fallen angels (demons). This should not be any new teaching for the believer. This is just simply what happens behind the spiritual realm that we cannot see.

    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (Ephesians 6:12).

    Jesus says,
    "Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children." (Luke 7:35).

    Paul says,

    "Let your speech
    be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6).

    May God's love shine upon you today.

     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  8. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

    +1,169
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    As Christian brothers and sisters we should strive together in our pursuit of the truth. I take comfort in the fact that if I am wrong one of the many Christians here will let me know how and why. It is a very good thing that we sharpen each other in the truth.

    That said I am confused by your intentions here. We speak to you in love hoping to sharpen you in the pursuit of truth and possibly be sharpened by you but you do not reciprocate. Instead you seem to play the role of saboteur, rather than a sharpener and a friend in Christ. If you simply want to continue believing what you will then such diligent participation is not required, but if you do wish to participate in sharpening your fellow brother then actual participation is expected.
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond to it. Had you done so you would have found that it does in fact address ECT. Typical irrational negative response. While the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, all of which I quoted, are not "infallible" I know of no more accurate and credible record of what the Jews believed at the time of Jesus. If you know of such a record please let me know.
    What do you call my posts if not participation? I will respond to discussion, I state facts and supporting evidence and expect to respond to same. Not juvenile questions which various people erroneously think "prove" whatever it is they are trying to prove.
     
  10. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    I'm not trying to prove anything. I just wonder what the Tree of Life means to you.

    If you can't answer that, you essentially forfeit the debate.

    It's not a hard question. It's not rigged. It's not leading. It doesn't make assumptions. It's not based off of any controversial premise. It's not objectionable in any way.

    You have ZERO reason to avoid it.

    What does the Tree of Life mean to you?
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Thank you for this unsupported opinion. Read my discussion. The Jews contradict you.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Irrelevant! This is a discussion forum, I am not here to play games like 20 questions. You state what it means to you and I'll prove you wrong because I'm quite sure you have it wrong..
     
  12. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    The question isn't directed to me. It's directed to you.

    I am asking you a question.

    It's not rocket science.

    Repeat after me: "In my perspective, the Tree of Life is..." and follow through with what you think the Tree of Life means to you.

    It's EXTREMELY simple.
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    If it is so simple then you start off and repeat after me: "In my perspective, the Tree of Life is..." and follow through with what you think the Tree of Life means to you. You keep asking me surely you are not afraid to state what you believe.
     
  14. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    The question was addressed to you. Not to me.

    Please answer the question.
     
  15. Sanoy

    Sanoy Well-Known Member

    +1,169
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Participation toward leading a brother to truth includes that such a participant would show why a point is wrong rather than dismiss it as Juvenile and wrong. Questions are not wrong, they merely lead to things that might be right or wrong, namely answers. As the one asked, right or wrong falls on you to achieve via your answer.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +5,137
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Der Alter:

    I will answer your question for you.

    Q: Please show me any verse(s) which states that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they die?

    A: Scripture says death is cast into the Lake of Fire.
    "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
    (Revelation 20:14).

    And Scripture says that the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
    “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26).

    Oh, and here is a verse that suggests that the wicked will perish by fire.

    Psalms 68:2 says,
    "....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

    May God bless you today.

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.
     
  17. brakelite3

    brakelite3 Newbie

    43
    +7
    SDA
    Married
    My former post also made the point that all scripture must be compared to other scripture that pertains to the same topic or subject matter. As a supporter of ECT you have gone to no more than 5 proof texts which in truth offer very little in credible support for your case. IOW non of them specifically state that the wicked suffer torment forever, except for just one. That one can be easily dealt with when one appreciates what for ever and ever means...that it continues until its finished.
    However, on the other hand there are copious texts which state specifically the opposite. That the wicked shall be burnt up...perish...die...be cut off...shall not be found...be destroyed...in other words, the wicked shall be utterly done away with, permanently. That the punishment (death) for the wicked is eternal. NOT the punishing.(torment).

    I have a question. If as is true and agreed to be everyone, that sinners in hell are separated from God, that being part of the torment they suffer, how do they continue to survive if separated from the only source of life?
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Although you quoted my question you evidently did not understand it because you did not provide a verse which states in specific words something or someone is thrown into the LOF "then they die." Note the LOF is mentioned 5 times in Rev. The second death is mentioned 4 times. The 5 vss. which mention the LOF.
    [1] Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    [2] Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    Although the LOF is called the second death it is not synonymous with death because three living beings, one the false prophet is a man, are thrown into it but they do not die they are tormented day and night forever and ever.
    [3] Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Again the LOF is called "the second death" it is not synonymous with death because hell and death are thrown into it but neither can die, they cannot and have not had a first death so they cannot have a second death.
    [4] Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    [5] Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    The 4 vss. which mention the second death.
    [1] Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    [2] Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    [3] Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    [4] Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,474
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Nonsense you are trying to force a distinction which does not exist in Greek. If this assumption is correct then the righteous do not live forever because they are given eternal "life," a noun, not eternal "living," a verb.
    You evidently missed my discussion of Matt 25:46 in [post #161]
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  20. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

    345
    +62
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Single
    Are you going to answer my question?
     
Loading...