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Featured Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jordan Henshaw, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Jordan Henshaw

    Jordan Henshaw Active Member

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    Through the context.
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How you define eonian in Rom.16:26; 2 Thess.1:9; Mt.25:46?
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I have no idea what you're referring to or trying to say.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Clearly your position is untenable, erroneous & was refuted:

    The letter was written to Timothy, not ex-pagans. So the more pertinent question is how Timothy would have understood Paul's remark in 2 Tim.2:24-25. The answer is in accord with Paul's teachings re universalism, e.g. Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; Phil.2:9-11; Eph.1:10; Col.1:16,20, 1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:9-11; etc.

    So what would Timothy have taught these alleged ex-pagans? Exactly the same teaching of universalism that Paul taught.

    How do you know Timothy read Paul's letter to Timothy to illiterate, uneducated ex-pagans who believed in some sort of a "hell"? Would that be a universalist type of "hell" or some horror-fantasy like Dante's Inferno or an annihilationist "hell" or something else? Were all converts to Christianity believers in a God or an afterlife, e.g. Sadducee types?


    Each time the "Lord's bond-servant" does what 2 Tim.2:24-25 says, it is possible "God may grant them repentance". The verse puts no time limit on when one may repent or the number of opportunities Love Omnipotent will grant people to repent, either in this life or postmortem. Therefore it does not contradict UR (universalism) & is perfectly in harmony with it as taught elsewhere in the Scriptures. God has all eternity & unlimited love & opportunities for repentance & salvation for His created beings. It's mathematically impossible anyone could reject him forever.

    Evidently the Christian persecutor called Saul, who became the apostle Paul, had been refusing to repent, for when Christ appeared to him Jesus said to him it is hard to keep kicking against the goads. And why do you persecute Me?

    2Tim.2:24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
    if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You have never refuted anything I posted and you never will. You have yet to provide one single verse where God/Jesus clearly states that all mankind will be saved no matter what. All you or any other URite has ever done is quote a handful of out-of-context proof texts thrown together regardless of context.
    Please show me any historical evidence that prior to Christian evangelism the Greek pagans in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika etc. did not believe in pagan God and their form of hell. On virtually every page of this forum someone claims that the Christian belief in hell was copied from Greek paganism but when I say that you claim they didn't.

    Total nonsense! There is absolutely no way the free will and autonomy of mankind can be calculated mathematically.
    Several ridiculous arguments here. Is the will of God fulfilled in every situation?
    Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, was for the whole house of Israel and Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So
    instead of them being unto God, “
    for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.” God destroyed them.
    Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
    2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
    3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
    4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
    5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
    6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
    7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
    8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
    10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
    11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

    · · ·
    14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
    Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
    .....Now all you have to do is show me a verse where God Himself is speaking where God says that He will have pity, will have mercy and will undestroy the the Israelites and Judaens He destroyed in Jere 13:14? I keep asking this but all I get is a lot of irrelevant out-of-context proof texts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Context doesn't change the definition of a word.
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    An age
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Finite or eternal? Why?
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You obviously erred in several comments including:

    Each time the "Lord's bond-servant" does what 2 Tim.2:24-25 says, it is possible "God may grant them repentance". The verse puts no time limit on when one may repent or the number of opportunities Love Omnipotent will grant people to repent, either in this life or postmortem. Therefore it does not contradict UR (universalism) & is perfectly in harmony with it as taught elsewhere in the Scriptures. God has all eternity & unlimited love & opportunities for repentance & salvation for His created beings. It's mathematically impossible anyone could reject him forever.

    Evidently the Christian persecutor called Saul, who became the apostle Paul, had been refusing to repent, for when Christ appeared to him Jesus said to him it is hard to keep kicking against the goads. And why do you persecute Me?

    2Tim.2:24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
    if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You obviously erred in several comments including:
    Each time the "Lord's bond-servant" does what 2 Tim.2:24-25 says,
    it is possible "God may grant [Possible not certain! Why doesn't Paul say they will definitely be granted repentance? DA] them repentance". The verse puts no time limit on [Logical fallacy, argument from silence. DA] when one may repent or the number of opportunities Love Omnipotent will grant people to repent, either in this life or postmortem. [Where does Paul say that those whom the "Lord's bond servant teaches will definitely be granted repentance even postmortem? DA] Therefore it does not contradict UR (universalism) & is perfectly in harmony with it as taught elsewhere in the Scriptures. God has all eternity & unlimited love & opportunities for repentance & salvation for His created beings. It's mathematically impossible anyone could reject him forever.[Nonsensical argument. repentance and faith cannot be mathematically calculated. DA]
    Evidently the Christian persecutor called Saul, who became the apostle Paul, had been refusing to repent, for when Christ appeared to him Jesus said to him it is hard to keep kicking against the goads. And why do you persecute Me?
    2Tim.2:24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
    if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
    Please show me a verse where God or Jesus is speaking and they say unequivocally all mankind will be saved no matter what?
    .....The prison recidivism rate in the U.S. is 66+%. Out of 100 prisoners released more than 66 will return to prison. The "corrective" nature of penal imprisonment is not working. Many criminal released from prison blame everyone but themselves; judges, lawyers, juries, witnesses etc. and even try to take revenge on them.
    .....After unrepentant sinners are punished by God in fire for an indeterminate period will they be filled with warm fuzzies and love for God or will they blame and be angry with God as criminals are in this life?
    .....Where does God, Himself, say that He will have pity, will spare, will have compassion and undestroy the Israelites and Judeans He destroyed in Jer 13:14?

    Jeremiah 13:11
    (11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto Me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD, that they might be unto Me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory; but they would not hearken.
    Jeremiah 13:14
    (14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD; I will not pity, nor spare, nor have compassion, that I should not destroy them.
    The verses(s) I want to see are God, Himself, speaking, not Paul or another NT writer, not Isaiah or another OT prophet. Only God can abrogate His words.
     
  11. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Good post, allow me to add:

    There are many, many verses on this most precious subject, as this doctrine tells us about the great, awesome and wonderful love of God for us, demonstrating His tender mercies before all the inhabitants of the univese, fallen and unfallen.

    Now, admittedly, there are a handful, a very few, passages of scripture that need to be read carefully and prayerfully, as at the first they seem to go in another direction than the whole. However, when considered meticulously, they are seen to be in perfect agreement with all the texts from the beginning unto the last.

    Yes, I agree, we do not want a 'What I think ...', but rather an "It is written ...", and a "Thus saith the LORD ...", for as it is written:

    Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

    The word "hell" in scripture has several components to it, whether in Hebrew H7585, "שׁאל / שׁאול", "she'ôl" or Koine Greek, G86, "[h]ᾅδης", "hadēs", and also Koine Greek G1067, "γέεννα", "geenna", and also linked Koine Greek G5020, "ταρταρόω", "tartaroō", however, it generally means the "pit", "grave", "lower parts of the earth", and linked with words like "darkness", "corruption", "death", "worms", "dust", "burnt", "fire", "torment", etc.

    It is not so much that "hell", or ever "hellfire", or even the "lake of fire", will not be a place of 'conscious torment', because it will be, but that it is not an eternal and endlessly suffering in conscious torment, but rather a punishment upon wickedness and sin, that brings the execution of the penalty, or the wages for sin, eternal death, called the "second death", "twice dead", etc, where those who perish in said fires, will come to a point of ceasing to exist, without any further opportunities at life, or resurrection. They will be gone forever, including satan and all his angels with him.

    I will demonstrate some of these, from the scripture [KJB], things in a moment.

    There are a few, as stated, passages that seem to teach an eternal, endless conscious torment, but when read prayerfully and slowly, and carefully, considering each word in its proper place, in comparison with the context of the whole, they will be seen to not teach such a doctrine, but rather the opposite. I am not asking anyone to take my word, but to take the "word" of God.

    God will always do the right thing, that's because He is love [1 John 4:8,16 KJB], and He always knows what is best, even for those who never accepted His offer in Christ Jesus.

    God is the judge of the heart of all persons, and He knows the light that all person have had in regards His offer in Christ Jesus.

    John 3:19 KJB - And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

    There will be those in Heaven who never knew the name of Jesus, because they had no opportunity in life to know:

    Zechariah 13:6 KJB - And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.​

    I am not looking to give any false hopes, but simply stating what scripture [KJB] says.

    According to scripture [KJB], no matter whether a person ultimately believed or did not ultimately believe, is dead, buried [assumably, if not cremated, buried at sea, etc] and in the grave, and is asleep in death, knowing nothing, feeling nothing, doing nothing, unconscious of any passage of time [only known exceptions are Enoch and Elijah, both translated without seeing death, & Moses who received special resurrection in the OT by Jesus, and the firstfruits around Jerusalem in Jesus' day, who received special resurrections and taken to Heaven], until such time as his call by God to the resurrection*, either to the first great, being the resurrection of life [at the beginning of the 1,000 years] or to the second great, the resurrection of condemnation [at the end of the 1,000 years, Revelation 20; Isaiah 24 KJB, etc].

    [* as a side note, there will be a special resurrection of some wicked, and some righteous before the two great resurrections, but it will generally not apply to many except they meet specific conditions, more on that if you would like to know.]​

    Ok, onto the evidences, from scripture [KJB], which we can look at anything you would like, either presented or otherwise [what follows is non-exhaustive, but well representative, and not meant to be overwhelming, but at least a well-rounded presentation, and again I am open to looking at anything specific you would like to consider more closely]:

    Do the scriptures teach the Annihilation of the Lost in the 2nd Death?

    All darkness [shall be] hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle. (Job 20:26)

    This [is] the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God. (Job 20:29)

    For what portion of God [is there] from above? and [what] inheritance of the Almighty from on high? (Job 31:2)

    [Is] not destruction to the wicked? and a strange [punishment] to the workers of iniquity? (Job 31:3)

    The wicked shall be turned into hell, [and] all the nations that forget God. (Psalms 9:17)

    Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins. (Psalms 7:9)

    Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup. (Psalms 11:6)

    Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them. (Psalms 21:9)

    For yet a little while, and the wicked [shall] not [be]: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it [shall] not [be]. (Psalms 37:10)

    But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD [shall be] as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psalms 37:20)

    For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalms 37:28)

    But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. (Psalms 37:38)

    As smoke is driven away, [so] drive [them] away: as wax melteth before the fire, [so] let the wicked perish at the presence of God. (Psalms 68:2)

    Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (Psalms 69:28)

    For in the hand of the LORD [there is] a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring [them] out, [and] drink [them]. (Psalms 75:8)

    All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; [but] the horns of the righteous shall be exalted. (Psalms 75:10)

    When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; [it is] that they shall be destroyed for ever: (Psalms 92:7)

    For, lo, thine enemies, O LORD, for, lo, thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered. (Psalms 92:9)

    Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD. (Psalms 104:35)

    And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked. (Psalms 106:18)

    The wicked shall see [it], and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish. (Psalms 112:10)

    The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy. (Psalms 145:20)

    But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. (Proverbs 2:22)

    As the whirlwind passeth, so [is] the wicked no [more]: but the righteous [is] an everlasting foundation. (Proverbs 10:25)

    The hope of the righteous [shall be] gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish. (Proverbs 10:28)

    The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. (Proverbs 10:30)

    The wicked are overthrown, and [are] not: but the house of the righteous shall stand. (Proverbs 12:7)

    The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out. (Proverbs 13:9)

    The house of the wicked shall be overthrown: but the tabernacle of the upright shall flourish. (Proverbs 14:11)

    For there shall be no reward to the evil [man]; the candle of the wicked shall be put out. (Proverbs 24:20)

    Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

    The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:20)

    Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (Isaiah 13:9)

    They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 66:17)

    And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24)

    For while [they be] folden together [as] thorns, and while they are drunken [as] drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry. (Nahum 1:10)

    For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, [so] shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. (Obadiah 1:16)

    I will utterly consume all [things] from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zephaniah 1:2)

    I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. (Zephaniah 1:3)

    Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:15)

    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

    For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

    But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned. (Hebrews 6:8)

    But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (2 Peter 3:10)

    And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9)​

    Other passages can also be looked at individually, and such terms like "unquenchable", "eternal", "for ever and ever", "everlasting", etc and their Biblical use in terms of the righteous and the wicked in context.

    Begin to ask, where are the all of the wicked [including Satan and his angels] standing in Revelation 20:8-9? Do they [the wicked] live there eternally or are they rather not completely destroyed so that the New Heaven and the New Earth may be created there, wherein dwelleth righteousness, peace, no more tears, pain or sorrow or sin or satan?

    "...and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11;p​

    The text [Matthew 10:28] is saying, simply [a more thorough answer may come if needed/requested], that mankind cannot so kill/destroy the person to where they cannot be resurrected by God and so live again [therefore do not fear that temporary death], but says the text and Christ Jesus Himself, that God can so kill/destroy the person that they cannot be so resurrected ever again [a permanent death, and to fear/reverence Him, ie obey God rather than men].

    There is a clear and distinct difference in scripture given, between the 1st death ['sleep', 'no knowledge'] and 2nd death [annihilation, 'no more'].

    This text [Matthew 10:28] absolutely shows that the pagan and platonic philosophy of immortal tormenting sufferors [in any manner] is incorrect. God does not prolong the suffering of the wicked in their sin, hatred and misery, He justly, mercifully and even lovingly ends it forever.

    A More Thorough Answer:

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Matthew 10:28 και μη φοβηθητε απο των αποκτεινοντων το σωμα την δε ψυχην μη δυναμενων αποκτειναι φοβηθητε δε μαλλον τον δυναμενον και ψυχην και σωμα απολεσαι εν γεεννη

    Matthew 10:28 καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτενόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβήθητε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.

    Matthew 10:28 AndG2532 fearG5399 notG3361 (G575) them which killG615 theG3588 body,G4983 butG1161 are notG3361 ableG1410 to killG615 theG3588 soul:G5590 butG1161 ratherG3123 fearG5399 him which is ableG1410 to destroyG622 bothG2532 soulG5590 andG2532 bodyG4983 inG1722 hell.G1067

    Matthew 10:28 καιG2532 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N φοβηθητεG5399 V-AOM-2P αποG575 PREP τωνG3588 T-GPM αποκτεινοντωνG615 V-PAP-GPM τοG3588 T-ASN σωμαG4983 N-ASN τηνG3588 T-ASF δεG1161 CONJ ψυχηνG5590 N-ASF μηG3361 PRT-N δυναμενωνG1410 V-PNP-GPM αποκτειναιG615 V-AAN φοβηθητεG5399 V-AOM-2P δεG1161 CONJ μαλλονG3123 ADV τονG3588 T-ASM δυναμενονG1410 V-PNP-ASM καιG2532 CONJ ψυχηνG5590 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ σωμαG4983 N-ASN απολεσαιG622 V-AAN ενG1722 PREP γεεννηG1067 N-DSF​

    This very verse not only vindicates God in His infinite love, but also His word, His doctrine, that in the first death, all "sleep", from which we must be awakened (A) in a state of unawareness (B), and remain as such in the grave (C), until their respective resurrection (D), either the special (E), first great resurrection of the just/righteous/saints (F) which takes place when Jesus comes in Power and Glory (G), or in the second great resurrection of the unjust/unrighteous/wicked (H), which takes place, on earth (I), after the 1000 years (J), when Christ Jesus finally descend upon the mount of olives in the 3rd Advent with all of the saved and glorified saints and New Jerusalem (K), wherein satan, his devils and all of the wicked who have ever lived will face the executive judgment of the 2nd death (L), from which there is no returning, it is a total annihilation and removal of sin forever (M), but it also completely, absolutely, and most thankfully, eliminates any possibility of the satan [thus pagan] originated (N) doctrine of 'eternal tormented sufferers', 'immortal soul/spirit' theology and and a vindictive, sadistic, cruel and malevolent Jesus from being true.

    Why does it eliminate such possibility of 'eternal tormented sufferers' and erroneously dangerous 'immortal soul/spirit' theology? For the text in the latter half is most strikingly clear and decisive:

    "...fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

    God is able to, and will, 'destroy' both ['soul' + 'body'] in 'hell' (O), which mankind is unable to do. The doctrine of devils (P) that the wicked suffer eternally is now itself - destroyed, itself subject to the 2nd death. Jesus, Himself, "the resurrection and the life" (Q), says that we as His followers ought not to fear, or be afraid of, those people which are able to kill/destroy this current existence of ours, this mortal body/flesh (R), this animated "dust", "clay", "earthen" (S), of which we all are, for only God is immortal (T), for only in Him is Life, unborrowed, underived, eternal, self-existing (U), for those people cannot kill/destroy the soul, the 'nefesh' or 'psyche' (V), which is the total living and aware being made up of "dust" + "breath of life" of God (W), for these people can only kill/destroy in the manner which God has allowed which is the first death, and so those which are so killed/destroyed or die in such manner are, as Christ Jesus Himself, says, they which "sleepeth" (X) awaiting to be awakened in their respective resurrection by Him (Y), but says He, that we ought to rightly fear and reverence God (Z) who is not only able, but will so destroy all sin and sinners in the 2nd Death, which is to come, and from which there is no return, nor resurrection, nor life in any fashion.

    ...references to follow...

    A: [sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

    B: [knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

    C: [grave/s, sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]] Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

    D: [resurrection/s] 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Psalms 16:10; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:23,28,30,31, 27:52,53 [special firstfruits resurrection; see also Isaiah 26:19; Ephesians 4:8]; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:27,33,35,36; John 5:29, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 2:27,31, 4:2,33, 17:31,32, 23:6,8, 24:15,21; Romans 1:4, 6:5,8; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Ephesians 1:20, 4:8 [special firstfruits resurrection; see also Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53]; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3, 3:21; Jude 1:9 [Moses resurrection; combine with Matthew 17; Mark 9; Luke 9; 2 Peter 1:16; Romans 5:14]; Revelation 1:5,18, 20:5,6,13; [translations] - Enoch [Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5]; Elijah [2 Kings 2:1,11; Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30,31] and some at Jesus's 2nd Advent/Coming [1 Thessalonians 4:13-17]; other special resurrections that took place - Elijah raises the Widow of Zarephath's [1 Kings 17:17-24]; Elijah raises the son of the Shunamite Woman [2 Kings 4:18-37]; A man and Elisha's Bones [2 Kings 13:20-21]; The Valley of Bones, the Resurrected Army [Ezekiel 37:1-14]; Jesus raises the Widow of Nain's Son [Luke 7:11-17]; Jesus raises Jairus's Daughter [Matthew 9:18,19,23-26; Mark 5:22-24,35-43; Luke 8:41-42,49-56]; Jesus raises Lazarus [John 11:1-47]; Peter raises Tabitha [Dorcas] [Acts 9:36-42]; Paul raises Eutychus [Acts 20:9-12]; Paul himself was not resurrected but was miraculously healed from stoning [Acts 14:19-20]; a special resurrection that will take place before the Great First Resurrection of the Righteous [Daniel 12:2,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13]; Jesus' Resurrection [Matthew 28:1-20; Mark 16:1-20; Luke 24:1-53; John 20:1-31]

    E: [a special resurrection, some righteous, some wicked - to witness Christ coming in Power in Glory to fulfill His Word] Daniel 12:1-3,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13

    F: [[first great] resurrection [of the saints, just, life, before/at start of the 1000 years when Christ Jesus returns in Power and Glory], raised] 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; [All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels [the "reapers"] with Him] Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7

    G: [2nd Advent/Coming in Power and Glory, with all the holy angels, even unto the 3rd] Zechariah 14:1-7 [3rd]; Daniel 2:35,44,45, 7:14,22,27, 8:25, 12:1-3; Matthew 19:28, 24:30, 25:31; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27; 1 Corinthians 15:43; 2 Thessalonians 1:9

    H: [[second great] resurrection [of the wicked, unjust, damnation, at the end/close of the 1000 years, when Christ Jesus and all of the Saints [then immortal] descend to Earth in New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20]] John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a

    I: [resurrection of unjust/damnation takes place on earth] Revelation 20:5,7-15

    J: [1000 years, the day of the Lord, the 7th millennium] Psalms 90:4; Isaiah 24:22; 2 Peter 3:8; Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7; see also the Biblical pattern,

    Just as the week is 6 Days and the 7th of Rest [Genesis 2:2-3; Exodus 16:26, 20:8-11, 23:12, 31:15,17, 34:21, 35:2; Leviticus 23:3; Deuteronomy 5:12-15, Ezekiel 46:1; etc], so too is to be the 1000 years, a Sabbath of Rest in Heaven, for the Gospel has been preached in the world for 6000 years.

    Just as the feast of Unleaven Bread would last for 6 days and the 7th a solemn assembly; Deuteronomy 16:8

    Just as Joshua surrounded Jericho for 6 days [1 times] and on the 7th Day [7 times]; Joshua 6:3,4, 13-16

    Just as the Land itself was to be worked for 6 years and the 7th year it was to be left alone, so too is to be the 1000 years, a Sabbath of Rest in Heavenly Canaan - The Promised Land. [Exodus 23:10-11]

    Just as the slaves worked for 6 years, they were to be set free in the 7th year, so too is it to be in the 1000 years, a Sabbath of Rest in Heaven. [Exodus 21:2; Deuteronomy 15:12]

    Just as Moses waited at the base of the Mountain 6 days, and on the 7th he was then called up into the Mount, into the clouds, so too shall we be called upwards. [Exodus 24:16; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17]

    Just as Joash was hid in the Temple 6 years, while Athaliah [daughter of Jezebel] reigned, and in the 7th year he was crowned King and came out with an army to slay her, so too will CHRIST JESUS come as KING of Kings and LORD of Lords and HE shall reign, and slay the wicked. [2 Kings 1:3; 2 Chronicles 22:12]

    Just as JESUS and the three Disciples [Peter, James and John] after 6 days went up the Mountain of Transfiguration, they saw JESUS transfigured before them standing with Moses and Elijah [the Law and the Prophets, the Resurrected Dead and the Translated Living, types of those to be on Earth at the 2nd Advent; Matthew 17, Mark 9; Luke 9; 2 Peter 1:16].
    K: [New Jerusalem descends from Heaven with Christ and all Saints, after 1000 years] Zechariah 14:1-5; Revelation 3:12, 20:5-15, 21:2;

    L: [2nd death from which there is no life, nor resurrection, nor return - annihilation] Psalms 9:17; Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; James 3:6; Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8

    M: [sin/sinners gone forever, cut off, perished, no more, destroyed, passed away, etc] Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 25:8, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Malachi 4:1; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 7:17, 20:9, 21:4

    John 3:16 says Perish or Everlasting Life [the wicked receive no such gift as everlasting life [there are no immortalized wicked anywhere and never will be], it is only a gift to the saved/just/righteous].

    Additionally, it is the Righteous who will eternally dwell with God, who is “a Spirit” [John 4:24 KJB], and “the Holy Spirit” the fullness of “fire” [Acts 2:3; Revelation 1:4; 4:5 KJB], who “baptize/s” with “fire” [Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16 KJB], thus we will dwell with “everlasting burnings” [Isaiah 33:14 KJB], for God is a “consuming fire” [to sin and of “Love”] [Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:8,16 KJB] and a “fire goeth before Him” [Psalms 97:3 KJB] which “shall devour before Him” [Psalms 50:3 KJB] and “he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire” [Lamentations 2:3 KJB], and for those whom He loves He is a “wall of fire round about” [Zechariah 2:5 KJB] and His “ministers a flame of fire” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB] and His “tongue as a devouring fire” [Isaiah 30:7 KJB] His speech “fire” [2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8; Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB], His “eyes … as a flame of fire” [Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 19:12 KJB], His “face as the sun” and His “feet a pillar of fire” [Matthew 17:2; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Revelation 1:15, 2:18, 10:1 KJB], for He is a “refiners fire” [Malachi 3:2 KJB] having a “throne of fire” [Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:9; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Revelation 4:5 KJB], His Ten Commandments a “Fiery Law” [Deuteronomy 33:2; Ezekiel 28:14,16 KJB] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass "mingled with fire" [Revelation 15:2 KJB], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [Exodus 3:3 KJB], for He is “Light”, even the Light of all.

    However, the lost are never immortal, for they are to be burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished forever; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4 KJB.

    [Hebrew: machah מחה; meaning: to wipe out; blot out, obliterate; exterminated]
    [Hebrew: macah מסה; meaning: melt away, dissolve, liquefy, consumed]
    [Hebrew: muwg מוג; meaning: to melt, dissolve, faint, dissipate, flow away]
    [Hebrew: muwth מות; meaning: dead, death, kill, slain]
    [Hebrew: da`ak דעך; meaning: extinguished, to go out, put out, dry up, made extinct, quenched]
    [Hebrew: caphah ספה; meaning: to be swept away, destroyed, consumed]
    [Hebrew: shachath שחת; meaning: destroyed, corrupted, ruined, decayed]
    [Hebrew: parar פרר; meaning: break apart, frustrate, split, splinter to pieces, shatter, cracked up]
    [Hebrew: 'abad אבד; meaning: perished, vanished, destroyed, die, exterminated, blot out, put to death]
    [Hebrew: 'obed אבד; meaning: destruction, perish]
    [Hebrew: gava` גוע; meaning: to expire, die, death, breathe ones last, yield up the last breath]
    [Hebrew: cuwph סוף; meaning: to come to an end, to make an end, consume utterly, cause to cease, perish]
    [Hebrew: damah דמה; meaning: to cease, cause to cease, cut off, destroy, perish, to be undone]
    [Hebrew: charam חרם; meaning: to ban, destroy utterly and completely, exterminated, forfeited, divided, prohibited]
    [Hebrew: kalah כלה; meaning: consumed, determined, ended, finished, completely spent, at an end, perish, terminated, annihilation, complete destruction]
    [Hebrew: karath כרת; meaning: cut off, cut asunder, eliminate, kill, cut down]
    [Hebrew: kachad כחד; meaning: hide, conceal, cut down, make desolate, destroy, cut off, annihilate, efface]
    [Hebrew: bala` בלע; meaning: swallowed up, eaten up, to be ended]
    [Hebrew: balah בלה; meaning: to wear out, wear away, use up completely]
    [Hebrew: harac הרס; meaning: to tear down, break down, overthrow, destroy utterly]
    [Hebrew: show' שוא; meaning: devastated, ruined, laid to waste]
    [Hebrew: tsamath צמת; meaning: put an end to, cut off, destroy, exterminate, annihilate]
    [Hebrew: shamad שמד; meaning: destroyed, exterminate, annihilated, devastated]
    [Hebrew: naphal נפל; meaning: cast down, fail, waste away, overturn, knock down, fall]
    [Hebrew: 'akal אכל; meaning: to eat, devour, consume, to be wasted, destroyed]
    [Hebrew: chacal חסל; meaning: to consume, eaten up, bring to an end]
    [Hebrew: tamam תמם; meaning: to be complete, finished, at an end, consumed, exhausted]
    [Hebrew: 'oklah אכלה; meaning: object of devouring, consuming in judgment]
    [Hebrew: maqaq מקק; meaning: to decay, pine away, rot, fester, corrupt, dissolve]
    [Hebrew: guwz גוז; meaning: to pass over, pass away (of life), cut off]
    [Hebrew: yatsath יצת; meaning: to be burned up, to be made desolate, set on fire]
    [Hebrew: sĕrephah שרפה; meaning: burning, burn, burnt up throughly]

    [Greek: apollymi ἀπόλλυμι; meaning: to destroy, put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin, render useless, kill, perish]
    [Greek: lyō λύω; meaning: loosed, undone, annul, dissolve, do away with, overthrow, break up]
    [Greek: katalyō καταλύω; meaning: dissolved, disunite, overthrow, render vain, bring to naught]
    [Greek: analiskō ἀναλίσκω; meaning: to expend, consume, destroy]
    [Greek: phtheirō φθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, to destroy, to perish, deprave]
    [Greek: diaphtheirō διαφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, consume, destroy, kill, eat up, ruin]
    [Greek: aphanizō ἀφανίζω; meaning: to snatch away, take away, to make unseen, to destroy, consume, to make vanish]
    [Greek: phthora φθορά; meaning: corruption, destruction, perishing, decay]
    [Greek: kataphtheirō καταφθείρω; meaning: to corrupt, deprave, to destroy, perish]
    [Greek: ekkoptō ἐκκόπτω; meaning: hewn down, cut off or out]
    [Greek: apokoptō ἀποκόπτω; meaning: cut off, amputate]
    [Greek: nekros νεκρός; meaning: lifeless, dead, deceased, breathed ones last, inanimate, inactive]
    [Greek: nekroō νεκρόω; meaning: dead, put to death, to deprive of power, destroy the strength]
    [Greek: apothnēskō ἀποθνῄσκω; meaning: to die, perish, dry up, eternal death]
    [Greek: empi(m)prēmi ἐμπί(μ)πρημι; meaning: burn up, destroy by fire]
    [Greek: katakaiō κατακαίω; meaning: to burn up, consume by fire]

    Begin to ask, where are the all of the wicked [including Satan and his angels] standing in Revelation 20:8-9? Do they [the wicked] live there eternally or are they rather not completely destroyed so that the New Heaven and the New Earth may be created there, wherein dwelleth righteousness, peace, no more tears, pain or sorrow or sin or satan?

    "...and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11;p
    N: [the serpent/devil/satan/dragon said, "Ye shall not surely die..."] Genesis 3:4; and [God said "Ye shall surely die..."] Genesis 2:17, 27:4; Proverbs 19:16; Ezekiel 3:19, 18:4,20, 33:9; James 5:20; Revelation 16:3; and [God strictly warned and forbade necromancy, attempted communication, prayer to/with the 'dead', for He knew it was false, a deception of Satan to ensnare] Exodus 22:18, Deuteronomy 18:9-12; Isaiah 8:19; Luke 24:5; [Episode of Saul and the woman of Endor] 1 Samuel 28:7-25, 31:1-12; 2 Samuel 1:1-24; 1 Chronicles 10:1-13

    O: [Word definitions, from Strong's, but we can alwys look at how the Bible itself defines this word]:

    'Able': "δύναμαι"; "dynamai"; meaning "1) to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom; 2) to be able to do something; 3) to be capable, strong and powerful"

    'Kill': [also 'Destroy']: "ἀποκτείνω"; "apokteinō"; meaning: "1) to kill in any way whatever; a) to destroy, to allow to perish; 2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish"

    'Body': "σῶμα"; "sōma"; meaning "1) the body both of men or animals; a) a dead body or corpse; b) the living body; 1) of animals; 2) the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies); 3) is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body; a) so in the NT of the church; 4) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself"

    'Soul': "ψυχή"; "psychē"; meaning "1) breath; a) the breath of life; 1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing; a) of animals; b) of men; b) life; c) that in which there is life; 1) a living being, a living soul; 2) the soul; a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)"

    'Hell': "γέεννα"; "geenna"; meaning "1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction."
    P: [doctrines of devils] 1 Timothy 4:1

    Q: [Jesus is the resurrection and the life] John 11:25

    R: [man is mortal, mortality] Genesis 2:17; Job 4:17; Romans 6:12, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:53,54; 2 Corinthians 4:11, 5:4

    S: [dust, clay, earthen] Genesis 1:24,25, 2:7,19, 3:14,19, 18:27; Job 4:19, 7:21, 10:9, 13:12, 17:16, 20:11, 21:26, 30:19, 33:6, 34:15, 40:13; Psalms 22:15,29, 30:9, 103:14, 104:29; Ecclesiastes 3:20, 12:7; Isaiah 26:19, 29:16, 41:25, 45:9, 64:8; Jeremiah 18:4,6; Lamentations 4:2; Daniel 12:2; Malachi 4:3; John 9:6,11,14,15; Romans 9:21; 2 Corinthians 4:7; 2 Peter 2:6

    T: [God alone is inherently immortal] 1 Timothy 1:17, 6:14-16

    U: [God alone has inherent unborrowed life, original, eternal] John 1:4

    V: [nephesh / psychē] "The traditional Christian concept of an immaterial and immortal soul separate from the body is not found in pre-exilic Judaism, but evolved as a result of interaction with Persian and Hellenistic philosophy.[1] Accordingly, the Old Testament Hebrew word nephesh, although translated as "soul" in some older Bibles, actually has a meaning closer to "living being". Nephesh was rendered in the Greek Septuagint (a translation of the Old Testament dating from the centuries immediately prior to the modern era) as psyche (ψυχή), the Greek word for soul. The New Testament also uses the word psyche, but with the Hebrew meaning and not the Greek.[2]

    Genesis 2:7 gives the formula for creating a nephesh. According to this verse God did not make a body and put a soul into it like a letter into an envelope of dust; rather he formed man's body from the dust, then, by breathing divine breath into it, he made the body of dust live, i.e. the dust did not embody a soul, but it became a soul—a whole creature.[6] A dead body is not a nephesh. A living, conscious body is a nephesh.

    The only Hebrew word traditionally translated "soul" (nephesh) in English language Bibles refers to a living, breathing conscious body, rather than to an immortal soul.[3] John Goldingay writes, "The life of a human being came more directly from God, and it is also evident that when someone dies, the breath (rûaḥ, e.g., Ps 104:29) or the life (nepeš, e.g., Gen 35:18) disappears and returns to the God who is rûaḥ."[4]

    In the New Testament, the Greek word traditionally translated "soul" (psyche) has substantially the same meaning as the Hebrew, without reference to an immortal soul.[5]

    Man as Nephesh

    The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground,
    and breathed into his nostrils the breath [neshemah] of life,
    and the man became a living being/soul [nephesh]
    Genesis 2:7

    Animals as Nephesh

    Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. ... And whatever the man called each living creature [nephesh], that was its name. .—Genesis 2:19" [Wikipedia; "Soul In The Bible"] - Soul in the Bible - Wikipedia

    "...The modern scholarly consensus is that the canonical teaching of the Old Testament made no reference to an "immortal soul" independent of the body.[174][175][176][177] This view is represented consistently in a wide range of scholarly reference works.[178][179][180][181][182][183]

    ...The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul,[1][5] is affirmed as biblical teaching by a range of standard scholarly Jewish and Christian sources. The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Modern Christian Thought (1995), says "There is no concept of an immortal soul in the Old Testament, nor does the New Testament ever call the human soul immortal.",[193] Harper's Bible Dictionary (1st ed. 1985), says that 'For a Hebrew, ‘soul’ indicated the unity of a human person; Hebrews were living bodies, they did not have bodies",[194] the New Bible Dictionary’ (3rd. ed. 1996), says "But to the Bible man is not a soul in a body but a body/soul unity",[195] the Encyclopedia of Judaism’ (2000), says "Scripture does not present even a rudimentarily developed theology of the soul",[196] the New Dictionary of Theology’ (2000), and "The notion of the soul as an independent force that animates human life but that can exist apart from the human body—either prior to conception and birth or subsequent to life and death—is the product only of later Judaism", [191] Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (2000), says "Far from referring simply to one aspect of a person, “soul” refers to the whole person",[197] the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says "Possibly Jn. 6:33 also includes an allusion to the general life-giving function. This teaching rules out all ideas of an emanation of the soul.",[198] and "The soul and the body belong together, so that without either the one or the other there is no true man",[199] Eerdmans Bible Dictionary (1987), says "Indeed, the salvation of the “immortal soul” has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical.",[200] the Encyclopedia of Christianity (2003), says "The Hebrew Bible does not present the human soul (nepeš) or spirit (rûah) as an immortal substance, and for the most part it envisions the dead as ghosts in Sheol, the dark, sleepy underworld",[201] The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (2005), says "there is practically no specific teaching on the subject in the Bible beyond an underlying assumption of some form of afterlife (see immortality)",[202] and the Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible (rev. ed. 2009), says "It is this essential soul-body oneness that provides the uniqueness of the biblical concept of the resurrection of the body as distinguished from the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul".[203][204]

    The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul,[1][5] is also affirmed as biblical teaching by various modern theologians,[205][206][207][208][209][210][211][212][213] and Hebblethwaite observes the doctrine is "not popular amongst Christian theologians or among Christian philosophers today".[214]" [Wikipedia; Immortality of the Soul; Modern Scholarship] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

    One might also consider [an additional reference]:

    What Happens When You Die? | Truth About Death

    Is Hell Real? | Hell Truth

    Ghosts: Who Are They? | Ghost Truth

    http://virginmarybook.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Mary-English.pdf

    http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/immortality.htm

    http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/soul-and-spirit.htm

    http://biblelight.net/luther-tyndale.htm

    Heresy

    The Truth About Death

    The Truth About Hell & Hellfire

    http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Books/CFOOF1966-V01.pdf

    http://documents.adventistarchives.org/Books/CFOOF1965-V02.pdf

    [Wikipedia; "Annihilationism"] - Annihilationism - Wikipedia

    [Wikipedia; "Conditional Immortality"] - Christian conditionalism - Wikipedia

    [Wikipedia; "Soul Death"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

    [Wikipedia; "Christian Mortalism"] - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia

    Truth About Hell/Hellfire Mini -



    Truth About Death Mini-


    Testimony of an ex-Satanist, Roger Morneau:


    Testimonies of Godly men:

    “William Tyndale (1484-1536), English Bible translator and Martyr

    In 1530 responding to Sir Thomas More's objection to his belief that "all souls lie and sleep till doomsday" he vigorously replyed.

    "And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurection...And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be ? And then what cause is there of the resurrection ?" - William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk.4, ch.4, pp.180,181 - An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue
    Tyndale went to the heart of the issue in pointing out the papacy's draft upon the teachings of "heathen philosophers" in seeking to establish its contention of innante immortality. Thus

    "The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And becuase the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it. If the soul be in heaven, tell me what cause is there for the resurrection?" - ibid., p.180
    In yet another section of the same treatise, dealing with the "invocation of saints," Tyndale uses the same reasoning, pointing out that the doctrine of departed saints being in heaven had not yet been introduced in Christ's day:

    "And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, 'If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;' there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints would rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect." - ibid., p.118
    Tyndale presses his contention still further by showing the conflict of papal teaching with St. Paul, as he says is slightly sarcastic vein :

    " 'Nay Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again.' And I marvel that Paul had not conforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what should be of the resurrection?" - ibid. p.118
    John Frith (1503-33), associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr writes

    "Notwithstanding, let me grant it him that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing he shall never be able to prove by the Scriptures, yea, and which plainly destroy the resurrection, and taketh away the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul do prove that we shall rise;..and as touching this point where they rest, I dare be bold to say that they are in the hand of God." - An Answer to John Fisher, Bishop of Rochester
    Martin Luther (1493-1546) German reformer and Bible Translator.

    Regarding Luther's position Archdeacon Francis Blackburne of Cleveland; rector of Richmond states in his "Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State" of 1765 :

    "Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a Scripture foundation, and then made use of it as a confutation of purgatory and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment in his life." page 14.

    Martin Luther declared that it was the Pope, not the bible, who taught that "the soul is immortal" Martin Luther, Defence, proposition 27

    "Luther held that the soul died with the body, and that God would hereafter raise both the one and the other." Catholic Cardinal Du Perron, Historical View, p344
    Here are some sample Luther citations. The first one is from a 1573 translation.

    "Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.

    "But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288

    "Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760

    "...Protestants denied the Catholic purgatory. Luther taught mortality of the soul, comparing the sleep of a tired man after a day's work whose soul "sleeps not but is awake" ("non sic dormit, sed vigilat") and can "experience visions and the discourses of the angels and of God", with the sleep of the dead which experience nothing but still "live to God" ("coram Deo vivit").[4][5][6][7] ..."

    "..."so the soul after death enters its chamber and peace, and sleeping does not feel its sleep" (Commentary on Genesis – Enarrationes in Genesin, 1535–1545).[36]

    ... However, the best known advocate of soul sleep was Martin Luther (1483–1546).[95] In writing on Ecclesiastes, Luther says, “Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awoken, they shall seeme to have slept scarce one minute.[96]” - Intermediate state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    “As soon as thy eyes have closed shalt thou be woken, a thousand years shall be as if thou hadst slept but a little half hour. Just as at night we hear the clock strike and know not how long we have slept, so too, and how much more, are in death a thousand years soon past. Before a man should turn round, he is already a fair angel.[97]" - Christian mortalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    George Wishart (1500-1546), Greek scholar, friend of Latimer, tutor of John Knox, and martyr.

    Wishart was charged with attacking auricular confession, transubstatiation, extreme unction, holy water, invocation of saints and purgatory. Charge "XVI" was for promulgating the doctrine of the sleep of the soul.

    Charge "XVI": Thou false heretic has preached openly saying, that the soul of man shall sleep to the latter day of judgment and shall not obtain life immortal until that day." Blackburne, "Historical View", p.21.
    General Baptists In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held

    "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern
    Samuel Richardson (1633-1658) Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

    "A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 herem right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography
    John Milton (1608-1674), "Greatest of the Sacred Poets"; Latin secretary to Cromwell.

    "Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life...The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.", "Treatise of Christian Doctine" Vol.1, ch. 13, [see Page 271 here] - The Prose Works of John Milton ...
    Dr A.A. Phelps, pastor Congregational Church, Rochester, New York, and editor of "The Bible Banner", in discussing "Is Man By Nature Immortal?" (pp.639-650), presents twelve counts against the doctrine of innate immortality:
    1. It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.

    2. It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.

    3. It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.

    4. It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death.

    5. It is equally opposed to the physiological facts.

    6. Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existance.

    7. Immortality is a blessing to be sought, and not a birthright legacy.

    8. Inherent immortality is opposed to the scriptural doom of the wicked.

    9. It supersedes the necessity of the resurrection.

    10. It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce.

    11. It subverts the bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.

    12. It is a prolific source of error -Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism.” - Heresy
    Modern era:

    "... annihilationists come from and are part of any number of different denominations. ...

    ... E. Earle Ellis was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist Convention) until he fell asleep. Similarly, Dale Moody taught at Southern Baptist Seminary (also SBC). I bet you never thought conservative Southern Baptists would hold this view! Claude Mariottini, Old Testament professor at Northern Baptist Seminary (American Baptist Convention), is also an annihilationist, 7 ..." - Don’t Be Afraid to Rethink Hell: Why Other Beliefs Needn’t Get In Your Way

    "... I was a few weeks into the research when I read an article by a renown Southern Baptist New Testament scholar named E. Earle Ellis titled “The New Testament Teaching on Hell.” In it, he argued fairly and thoroughly that the New Testament advocates for an annihilation view of hell. This caught me off guard; I didn’t know he was going to argue for this. I read the article very casually, thinking it was going to be yet another defense of the traditional view. After all, Ellis is Southern Baptist. He’s evangelical. And he didn’t front his view at the beginning. He simply looked at all the relevant passages, exegeted them (with the exegetical methods I was taught in seminary), and then concluded that hell would not last forever; that is, its inhabitants would not experience everlasting conscious torment. And Ellis argued this from the text. ..." - Is Annihilation an Evangelical Option?
    E. Earle Ellis ; New Testament Teaching on Hell - Rethinking Hell

    W: [mankind is created as "dust" + "breath of life" of God, neither of which we own, and is no different in that respect than the beasts, thus in the first death; returning to dust which we are, "breath of life" of God returns to God, for it is His, not ours]
    Genesis 2:7, 6:17; Job 34:14,15; Psalms 104:29; Ecclesiastes 8:8, 12:7; Acts 17:25

    X: [Jesus, Himself says that the first death = "sleepeth"] Matthew 9:24; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; John 11:11

    Y: [God raises the dead] John 2:19, 6:39,44,54; Acts 26:8; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 4:14; Hebrews 11:19

    Z: [Fear/Reverence God] Ecclesiastes 12:13-14; Acts 5:29; Revelation 14:6-12
     
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    +496
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    It depends on the context. In Romans 16:26 there is nothing in the context to tell us the length of the age. The word is aionios which is an adjective. I think Youngs literal translation does well with it's translation of age-during.

    YLT Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --

    However, we do know from the apostle Paul that the Father alone has immortality. Therefore the age in Romans 16:26 is likely endless.

    2 Thessalonians 1:9 is the same word. Again, there is no time given in the context except the word destruction. If they are destroyed one could expect that to be permanent. Unless of course God restored them.

    Regarding Mathew 25:46, it is finite. The punishment is not unending. We know that because the Lake of fire will not exist forever, therefore the punishment won't.
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,333
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    How do you know Young's is correct? Just because a translation agrees with one's assumptions/presuppositions that does not make it correct.

    What makes you think the lake of fire will not exist forever?
    In the following twenty two verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described by other words and phrases as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 20:1, Romans 26:10.

    In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described as meaning a period of time less than eternal as in the following verses.

    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
    [3]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. See Robertson below. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” If an “aionios” house is at some time destroyed then it is no different than the earthly house. The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.” If the tabernacle in heaven is destroyed, it is no different than the earthly tabernacle.
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has a permanent [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God.
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “incorruptible.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. not “corruption.” “Age(s) is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting.”
    [10]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s)” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [12]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [13]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” “aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “little while.” Thus by definition “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [14]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortality.” If “aion” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternal.”
    [15]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” by definition here means eternal.
    [16]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionas] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [18]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [19]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [20]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal.”
    [21]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios” by definition here means ‘eternal.”
    [22]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever.
     
  14. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Context:

    Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?

    Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Revelation 21:3 KJB - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    Revelation 21:4 KJB - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    Revelation 21:5 KJB - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

    While Revelation 21:1 KJB states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:

    Isaiah 33:14 KJB - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

    Isaiah 33:15 KJB - He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

    Isaiah 33:16 KJB - He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

    Isaiah 33:17 KJB - Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

    Isaiah 33:18 KJB - Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?

    Isaiah 33:19 KJB - Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

    Isaiah 33:20 KJB - Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

    Isaiah 33:21 KJB - But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

    [see also Ezekiel 47:1-6 KJB]
    Isaiah 33:22 KJB - For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

    Isaiah 33:23 KJB - Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

    Isaiah 33:24 KJB - And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.
    The text also reveals that the "lake of fire", even the fiery "sea" will have passed away also [for to "pass away", is to "die"], for it was upon this old earth, look again [ignore the chapter break for a moment, just read it straight through]:

    Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

    In scripture, a "Sea" = "Lake" [whether of water, fire, etc]:

    Luke 5:1 - "the lake of Gennesaret" [see "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11 KJB], [see also "Chinnereth" [Deuteronomy 3:17; Joshua 19:35 KJB]] or "sea of Chinneroth" [Joshua 12:3 KJB], or "of Gennesaret" [Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53 KJB]; Matthew 8:27; Mark 4:39,41 KJB uses the word "sea" and John 6:1 says, "sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias".

    The very word "lake" in the Koine Greek in Revelation 20:14,15 is λιμνην [limnen].

    G3041 [only used in the Koine Greek of the NT, I didn't find it in the (so-called) LXX either]

    λίμνη limnē

    Total KJB Occurrences: 10

    lake, 10

    Luke 5:1-2 (2), 8:22-23 (2),33;

    Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15 (2), 21:8
    See also the alternate word for "sea":

    G2281 [its also in the (so-called) LXX, in the very places of the "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11,12 (so-called) [LXX], etc]

    θάλασσα thalassa

    Total KJB Occurrences: 95

    sea, 93

    Mat_4:15, Mat_4:18 (2), Mat_8:24, Mat_8:26-27 (2), Mat_8:32, Mat_13:1, Mat_13:47, Mat_14:24-26 (3), Mat_15:29, Mat_17:27, Mat_18:6, Mat_21:21, Mar_1:15-16 (3), Mar_2:13, Mar_3:7, Mar_4:1 (3), Mar_4:39, Mar_4:41, Mar_5:1, Mar_5:13 (2), Mar_5:21, Mar_6:47-49 (3), Mar_7:31, Mar_9:42, Mar_11:23, Luk_17:2, Luk_17:6, Luk_21:25, Joh_6:1 (2), Joh_6:16-19 (4), Joh_6:22, Joh_6:25, Joh_21:1, Joh_21:7, Act_4:24, Act_7:36, Act_10:6, Act_10:32, Act_14:15, Act_17:14, Act_27:30, Act_27:38, Act_27:40, Act_28:4, Rom_9:27, 1Co_10:1-2 (2), 2Co_11:26, Heb_11:12, Heb_11:29, Jas_1:6, Jud_1:13, Rev_4:6, Rev_5:13, Rev_7:1-3 (3), Rev_8:8-9 (3), Rev_10:2, Rev_10:5-6 (2), Rev_10:8, Rev_12:12, Rev_13:1 (2), Rev_14:7, Rev_16:2-3 (4), Rev_18:17, Rev_18:19, Rev_18:21, Rev_20:8, Rev_20:13, Rev_21:1
    red [sea], 2

    Act_7:36, Heb_11:29​

    Do you believe?

    Do you believe that the wicked will be at some point "ashes" by th fire/lake of fire?

    Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    Do you believe that this fire/lake of fire only burns up the 'body' unto "ashes"?

    Do you believe that something of the person [an immortal essence, or whatever] continues to exist after the 'body' is long gone as "ashes"?

    If so, how does this physical fire, bring any further 'never-ending' torments to this non-corpse [non-body] entity?

    Where do these wicked non-body [non-corpse] entities exist for and ever?

    Do you believe that Satan has a physical body? If no, how does the physical fire of Revelation 20 [etc] affect him and his angels? How, would he and they become "ashes" [Ezekiel 28:18 KJB]?
    Definition, please.

    How do you understand the words "2nd death" [definitionally]?

    From my persepctive, based upon the definitions given to me in scripture, the 2nd death, is oblivion. A death from which there is no return to life, in any form whatsoever. It is a ceasing to be altogether.

    Is there torment leading up to this death? Absolutely, but as stated and shown before, the torment/suffering and the final ending, death, are two things, one limited in duration leading into the finality and eternity of the other.

    When I read "death" in scripture it means no life, at all.

    For instance, when speaking of the spiritual death, ie "dead in trespasses and sins" [Ephesians 2:1 KJB], it means there is no spiritual life whatsoever, not even a little. It is as without form and void of life as this world was in Genesis.

    Therefore, when I read of the second death, can you explain to me, how the wicked will have continued existance, by what means, and by what scriptural reasons?

    Did Jesus suffer [limited, though on a scale we cannot ever comprehend] and die for the sin of the world?​

    Righteous get Eternal Life, never the wicked:

    Heaven is eternal, no doubt, for God Himself is Eternal Life, and the redeemed will be indwelt by God throughout eternity, but the wicked are not so indwelt, but are found to be outside of God, rather than abiding in God. And since they are found outside of God, they are found outside of eternal life.

    How then are the wicked to have eternal existence?

    As shown, the words, of Revelation 20:10, "even for ever and ever", are Koine Greek, "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων", which when seen in their context, locally and globally through the scripture [KJB], do not always mean eternal, but can mean limited in time, and can even deal with distance, or even spacial ["world"].

    Can an "αιων" [aiwn, aeon, in either time, distance or space] come to an end? Yes, even as Paul shows in Hebrews:

    Hebrew 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Hebrew 9:26 KJB - επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται
    Notice, "end of the world [aeon]". Notice again:

    Titus 2:12 KJB - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    Titus 2:12 KJB - παιδευουσα ημας ινα αρνησαμενοι την ασεβειαν και τας κοσμικας επιθυμιας σωφρονως και δικαιως και ευσεβως ζησωμεν εν τω νυν αιωνι
    Notice, "in this present world [aeon]", which indicates that there is an end to the current "world", or existence, and another "world" [aeon], or existence, to follow after it. Thus and "aeon" can come to an end, and is not necessarily eternal. See also "since the world began", "before this world", "this present evil world", "this world", in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, Matthew 13:39-40 (2), Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20, Mark 4:19, Mark 10:30, Luke 1:70, Luke 16:8, Luke 18:30, Luke 20:34-35 (2), John 9:32, Acts 3:21, Acts 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (4), 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 6:12, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Timothy 4:10, Titus 2:12, Hebrews 6:5, Hebrews 9:26; and etc. We now see that "aeon's" can begin, and end, and are not always ongoing without ceasing, and thus context always determines the length, distance, existence, etc.

    Notice how the Bible uses the word "for ever":

    Jonah 2:6 KJB - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

    Jonah 2:6 (2:7) (so-called) LXX - κατέβην εἰς γῆν, ἧς οἱ μοχλοὶ αὐτῆς κάτοχοι αἰώνιοι, καὶ ἀναβήτω φθορὰ ζωῆς μου, κύριε ὁ θεός μου.
    In both distance and time, it is impossible for the word "for ever" in Jonah to be eternal, or without end. Not only does earth have limited space [thus "ends of the earth", dry land is earth, see Genesis 1], but Jonah was only 3 days and 3 nights, timewise, in the belly:

    Jonah 1:17 KJB - Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
    Therefore, in either case, "for ever" is limited, in this instance, in distance and time.

    In Deuteronomy 23:3 KJB, “forever” means 10 generations. It can also mean “as long as he lives,” or “to death.”; thus see 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalms 48:14 KJB.

    The redeemed will have eternal life, because Jesus is eternal life, but the wicked will never have eternal existence:

    Psalms 21:4 KJB - He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

    Ecclesiastes 8:13 KJB - But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.
    Iniquity must be purged and cleansed from the universe, and it will not happen until the wicked cease to be:

    Isaiah 22:14 KJB - And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

    Psalms 37:10 KJB - For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    When will these verses be fulfilled in your understanding:

    Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

    Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

    Consumed and Not Consumed:

    The example of the burning bush, is the perfect example of Christ Jesus in us [the redeemed] in type. It is not an example of how the wicked will be, since Christ Jesus is not in them:

    Penitently redeemed:

    John 14:20 KJB - At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

    John 15:4 KJB Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    Exodus 3:2 KJB - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
    Stubbornly wicked:

    John 5:38 KJB - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

    John 8:37 KJB - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

    John 5:42 KJB - But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

    Exodus 33:5 KJB - For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.
    You do not know it, but you are actually blaspheming God's very name an character by teaching what you teach. Think carefully about it, please.

    Notice the contrast between Exodus 3:2, with Christ Jesus in the midst of the bush, and the bush was "not consumed", and then see Exodus 33:5, wherein the peoples did not have Christ Jesus abiding within, and were about to be totally "consumed".
    Now, what does "consume" mean?

    Suffering, lengths of time, not eternally:

    One suffers longer according as their works [which is Justice]. Hence the difference between torment [limited] and final end, 2nd death [permanent, eternal].

    Matthew 8:29 KJB - And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
    Are wicked angels suffering now in fire, or later, if now, how do you explain this verse, and if later when according to your belief and for how long?

    I read, in scripture [KJB], that "suffering"/torment has a limit, even for such wickedness that reached unto Heaven:

    Jude 1:7 KJB - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    The "vengeance of eternal fire" , is the same as saying the "vengeance of God [who is the eternal fire]".

    Christ Jesus also "suffered" for sin, having took our sins [all sin of man-kind] upon himself, and was it forever, no, but "once" [having a limited time]?

    1 Peter 3:18 KJB - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    Hebrews 13:12 KJB - Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

    Hebrews 9:25 KJB - Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    Hebrews 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Acts 17:3 KJB - Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

    Luke 24:26 KJB - Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
    Acts 17:3 KJB, teaches that suffering [for sin] exists only while alive, and the suffering was to continue unto the death, but once truly dead, there is no more suffering, and thus suffering has a limit, has an end, and thus the former things are passed away [gone, no more, not ever again, etc].​

    God's Mercy and the Days of Noah as an type:

    They will receive a reward for all the things done in the body at the resurrection of condemnation. Terrible, terrible is their reward, the suffering will be incalculable by human standards. They will suffer greatly, some a short time, some much longer. Yet, the wages of sin is death. God is merciful, just and love.

    God's own mercy is seen in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is merciful to end the life of the miserable sinner rather than to let them suffer forever in sin. Sin has a limit:

    God's mercy is extended only for a period of time, and is not without limit. God is "long-suffering", not endlessly suffering [which is another reason to know He does not believe in eternal torments].

    Exodus 34:6 KJB- And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
    For instance, God was longsuffering with Pharaoh. God was longsuffering with King Saul. God was longsuffering with Judas. God was longsuffering with Cain. God was longsuffering with Lucifer.

    Matthew 17:17 KJB - Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
    Our Father which art in Heaven is full of mercy and compassion, but He is also just and righteous and holy:

    Numbers 14:27 KJB - How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
    God has indeed multitude of tender mercies, yet God has set a time for each and also neither is His anger forever [again another reason to understand God's character in the matter of the destruction of the wicked, and not their eternal tormenting]:

    Psalms 79:5 KJB - How long, LORD? wilt thou be angry for ever? shall thy jealousy burn like fire?
    Notice:

    Romans 2:4 KJB - Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

    Romans 2:5 KJB - But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

    Romans 2:6 KJB - Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

    2 Peter 3:8 KJB - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    2 Peter 3:9 KJB - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    2 Peter 3:10 KJB - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    Sin has a limited time, and is living on borrowed time:

    James 1:15 KJB - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    Act 14:16 KJB - Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

    Act 17:26 KJB - And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

    Act 17:27 KJB - That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

    Act 17:30 KJB - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

    Act 17:31 KJB - Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
    Did the global flood of Noah kill all of the finally impentient outside of the Ark in one single instant of time?, or was there not rather various lengths of time, and degrees of injuries sustained throughout, that people continued to receive and live through, until all were finally destroyed from the face of the earth? with some instantly perishing, and others taking days to finally die either by beast, other men attempting to escape their doom fighting for the highest ground, starvation, thirst, hurling and heaving earth, or finally drown beneath the black depths ...

    In 2 Peter 2:5 [see also 2 Peter 3:6] KJB, Peter says "flood upon the world", yet in the Koine Greek, it is "κατακλυσμον κοσμω", a 'cosmic cataclysm'. Such devastation and destruction as has never been known, and will never again be known [by water], but will again be by fire. If one were to read Genesis 7-8 KJB carefully they will see that it took some time for all [human-kind] outside of the ark to finally perish, and not all perished at the same time. The wages for sin is death, even from Genesis 2:17 KJB, but the final punishment, being death, is preceded by terrors, anguish, torment, all limited and depending upon the deeds done in the body [Romans 2:6; jude 1:15 KJB], as it is written.

    So to die of thirst in such a cataclysm takes several days, while being crushed by a large piece of exploded land, or tree, or debris is near instantaneous. Each is just. Each received the length of time in torment, suffering, that was due, and both received the final end, death.
    I provided the scripture, now please consider a magnified look:

    Consider carefully:

    "... His mercy was not weakness, but a terrible power to punish sin because it is sin, yet a power to draw to it the love of humanity.”—7 Bible Commentary, 935-936 - SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 7 (EGW), Page 935

    "... “In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah’s time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain’s and Noah’s day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace.”—Great Controversy, 543 - The Great Controversy, Page 543
    As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be ...
    Consider:

    "... the Flood would never come. Notwithstanding the solemn scenes which they had witnessed—the beasts and birds entering the ark, and the angel of God closing the door—they still continued their sport and revelry, even making a jest of these signal manifestations of God's power. They gathered in crowds about the ark, deriding its inmates with a daring violence which they had never ventured upon before.

    But upon the eighth day dark clouds overspread the heavens. There followed the muttering of thunder and the flash of lightning. Soon large drops of rain began to fall. The world had never witnessed anything like this, and the hearts of men were struck with fear. All were secretly inquiring, “Can it be that Noah was in the right, and that the world is doomed to destruction?” Darker and darker grew the heavens, and faster came the falling rain. The beasts were roaming about in the wildest terror, and their discordant cries seemed to moan out their own destiny and the fate of man. Then “the fountains of the great deep” were “broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.” Water appeared to come from the clouds in mighty cataracts. Rivers broke away from their boundaries, and overflowed the valleys. Jets of water burst from the earth with indescribable force, throwing massive rocks hundreds of feet into the air, and these, in falling, buried themselves deep in the ground.

    The people first beheld the destruction of the works of their own hands. Their splendid buildings, and the beautiful gardens and groves where they had placed their idols, were destroyed by lightning from heaven, and the ruins were scattered far and wide. The altars on which human sacrifices had been offered were torn down, and the worshipers were made to tremble at the power of the living God, and to know that it was their corruption and idolatry which had called down their destruction.

    As the violence of the storm increased, trees, buildings, rocks, and earth were hurled in every direction. The terror of man and beast was beyond description. Above the roar of the tempest was heard the wailing of a people that had despised the authority of God. Satan himself, who was compelled to remain in the midst of the warring elements, feared for his own existence. He had delighted to control so powerful a race, and desired them to live to practice their abominations and continue their rebellion against the Ruler of heaven. He now uttered imprecations against God, [page 99-100] charging Him with injustice and cruelty. Many of the people, like Satan, blasphemed God, and had they been able, they would have torn Him from the throne of power. Others were frantic with fear, stretching their hands toward the ark and pleading for admittance. But their entreaties were in vain. Conscience was at last aroused to know that there is a God who ruleth in the heavens. They called upon Him earnestly, but His ear was not open to their cry. In that terrible hour they saw that the transgression of God's law had caused their ruin. Yet while, through fear of punishment, they acknowledged their sin, they felt no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They would have returned to their defiance of Heaven, had the judgment been removed. So when God's judgments shall fall upon the earth before its deluge by fire, the impenitent will know just where and what their sin is—the despising of His holy law. Yet they will have no more true repentance than did the old-world sinners.

    Some in their desperation endeavored to break into the ark, but the firm-made structure withstood their efforts. Some clung to the ark until they were borne away by the surging waters, or their hold was broken by collision with rocks and trees. The massive ark trembled in every fiber as it was beaten by the merciless winds and flung from billow to billow. The cries of the beasts within expressed their fear and pain. But amid the warring elements it continued to ride safely. Angels that excel in strength were commissioned to preserve it.

    The beasts, exposed to the tempest, rushed toward man, as though expecting help from him. Some of the people bound their children and themselves upon powerful animals, knowing that these were tenacious of life, and would climb to the highest points to escape the rising waters. Some fastened themselves to lofty trees on the summit of hills or mountains; but the trees were uprooted, and with their burden of living beings were hurled into the seething billows. One spot after another that promised safety was abandoned. As the waters rose higher and higher, the people fled for refuge to the loftiest mountains. Often man and beast would struggle together for a foothold, until both were swept away.

    From the highest peaks men looked abroad upon a shoreless ocean. The solemn warnings of God's servant no longer seemed a subject for ridicule and scorning. How those doomed sinners longed for the opportunities which they had slighted! ..." - Patriarchs and Prophets, pages 99-100 - Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 99
    You might say, "That the 2nd death is only eternal separation from God.", well, that's up to you of course, if you do not mind advocating Roman Catholic Jesuit doctrine, from the council of Trent:

    So, what you are telling me is, that you actually teach Jesuit Roman Catholic doctrine, passing it off as scripture [KJB]?

    Roman Catholic Online Catechism -

    "... 1033 ... To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." ..."

    "... 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. ..."

    "... 1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. ..." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting

    Commonly understood:

    "... But now the Catholic authorities in Rome have presented a strikingly different (and seemingly modern) picture of eternal damnation.

    By their account, hell is best understood as the condition of total alienation from all that is good, hopeful and loving in the world. What's more, this condition is chosen by the damned themselves, the ultimate exercise of free will, not a punishment engineered by God.

    Hell ''is not a 'place' but a 'state,' a person's 'state of being,' in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God,'' declared La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine based in Rome and closely tied to the Vatican, in a long editorial in July. ..." - Hell Is Getting A Makeover From Catholics; Jesuits Call It a Painful State But Not a Sulfurous Place

    You don't beleive that?, OK.

    So, according to your present belief, if we think this through, teaches that all of the wicked [sinners and sin] who have ever existed, including satan himself, will have eternal existence [being sustained by God, by continuous miracle] 'Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.....'. I assume you refer to Revelation 22:15 KJB in such a position? If so, you may want to reconsider the context of the text itself.

    Can you tell me then, according to such a belief, where [the specific location] is the New Jersualem, during this eternal existence of the wicked, once the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire", being 'Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem', surrounding the city itself?

    Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Revelation 21:10 KJB - And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    Revelation 21:25 KJB - And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

    Revelation 22:14 KJB - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

    From what I read, according to the texts, the New Jerusalem, comes down from God out of Heaven, and lands upon the earth [old], and remains there [even while God re-creates the earth around it after the "lake of fire" event].

    Are you telling me, that all of the wicked who have ever lived will be permanently existing outside of the New Jerusalem for all of eternity, in this vast "lake of fire", which would cover the entire face of the New Earth [as it is anti-type to Noah; and think of how many billions have existed since "cain"]? If so, it sounds like such a teaching as that has the wicked inheriting the position of existing all over the face of the New Earth. Does the righteous, in your belief, ever inherit the entire New Earth just for themselves where there is no more pain, etc? Or do you envision this "lake of fire" eternally existing outside of the New Jerusalem, being in view throughout eternity?

    Where then is the "lake of Fire" locationally, in this 'eternity' of yours?

    The "lake of fire" could not just be 'anywhere'. That is incorrect according to the scriptures cited before you. It is clearly just outside and surrounding the New Jerusalem, once it comes down from God out of Heaven and rests upon this [old] earth:

    Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    Revelation 20:10 KJB - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    As for some peoples wild escape plan theology, to avoid these obvious conclusoins, in a desparate attempt, say it exists in 'another dimension'! That is also not scriptural [KJB], and is "sci-fi" [science falsely so called; 1 Timothy 6:20 KJB], and they simply made it up [or borrowed it] to escape the inevitable conclusion of my pointed questions, and the clearly cited texts and evidences. They are self-deceiving themselves at this point if they choose to go theref, and unless they repent, they can only become more and more blind to scripture [KJB]. I do not joke. Please, do not do this. I am begging all, please, humble yourself before God, and go to Him, kneeling in prayer, asking Him for the truth of the matter before it is too late about these texts, for I fear that if anycontinue this route, they will do exactly as they of old did to Jesus, thinking they did God service.

    The "lake of fire" is entirely visible to those inside of the New Jerusalem [once it comes down and the fire falls and comes up], for the whole universe must witness the final result of the punishment and the wages for sin, so that sin will never arise again,

    Psalms 91:8 KJB - Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
    What others say of the matter or think of the matter, is irrelevant. What matters is what scripture [KJB] says and teaches.

    It is for us to know right now, for God hath spoken it even from the beginning:

    Deuteronomy 29:29 KJB - The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
    The "lake of fire" and its location, and how it comes about [fire from Heaven above, and from within the earth, as like unto the days of Noah with the waters, with the New Jerusalem resting above it all, all of the saved inside, preserved through it], is no secret, but plainly revealed, but will you accept what it says and teaches, along with the results thereof, or will you continue to put forth non-scriptural ideology? Your escape is cut off, there is no where for you to go, but through this fiery questioning, until you acknowledge the truth. Cauterize the festering and stinking wound of pride.

    Psalms 140:10 KJB - Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

    Psalms 11:6 KJB - Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

    Psalms 7:9 KJB - Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

    Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.​
     
  15. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Because it fits all of the occurrences of the word

    John said the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. The only way to reconcile these is to conclude that the they are the same place. The prophet Jeremiah prophesied that Gehenna would, one day, be made holy to the Lord again.

    And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 KJV)

    Note what it is that is burning in the fire. It is corpses, not living people or living souls or spirits, it's corpses.

    38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:1 KJV)
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No it does not as I proved in my post [#713] this thread where I quoted 22 verses which prove that aion/aionios mean eternity/eternal but it was ignored because it doesn't fit your agenda.
    John said the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. The only way to reconcile these is to conclude that the they are the same place. The prophet Jeremiah prophesied that Gehenna would, one day, be made holy to the Lord again.

    And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 KJV)
    Note what it is that is burning in the fire. It is corpses, not living people or living souls or spirits, it's corpses.
    38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:1 KJV)

    Jeremiah does not even mention Gehenna. There is no archaeological or literary evidence that Ge Hinnom was ever used as a dump for burning trash or bodies. Archaeological and literary evidence shows a valley which was used as a dump the Kidron valley which Jeremiah does mention. I recommend that you do actual research and not depend on internet "fake news" for your beliefs.

    The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
    Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
    Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
    Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
    “Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
    (“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223,)
    G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
    “Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
    The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism

     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    While Revelation 21:1 KJB states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:....
    * * *
    Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    In scripture, a "Sea" = "Lake" [whether of water, fire, etc]:
    I hope you don't really think anyone is going to read 11 pages of copy/paste. Here are a few errors I noticed when I skimmed through your post. Near the beginning you indicate that "no more sea" Rev 21:1 refers to water. Later you indicate that if refers to the lake of fire. Which is it?
    As shown, the words, of Revelation 20:10, "even for ever and ever", are Koine Greek, "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων", which when seen in their context, locally and globally through the scripture [KJB], do not always mean eternal, but can mean limited in time, and can even deal with distance, or even spacial "world".
    Please see my post [#713] this thread where I show that aion/aionios mean eternity/eternal.
    Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    Do you believe that the wicked will be at some point "ashes" by th fire/lake of fire?

    Even as you quoted it Mal 4:3 says nothing about the lake of fire.

    Malachi 4:1-3
    (1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    (2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    (3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    This passage refers to something that happens on one certain day in this life. "the day cometh" vs. 1 "in that day" vs. 3
     
  18. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    No, it was ignored because you just post the same things over and over even though they've already been addressed.


    This is why I don't respond to many of your posts. You're rude and I'm getting tired of your attitude. I don't care how many letters, if any, you have after your name, I'm not impressed. All a degree means is that one is educated in an erroneous theology. You don't engage in discussion you just try to prove everyone wrong. I don't know how many times I've seen you post "Wrong!". Well, you know, I find that people who go "Wrong!", usually are. Now if you're going to have a conversation with me you'll need to start acting like an adult.




    Here you go with the garbage dump cut and paste again. I didn't say anything at all about a garbage dump.

    Now regarding your 22 verses. All you've proven is that you don't know how to make logical argument. You argument is itself a logical fallacy. It's a "False Dilemma." It's an either or argument. You argue that aionios can't mean a finite period of time because it means eternal. That's an either or argument. However, there is another option. That being that aionios doesn't mean finite or infinite. An age is an undefined period of time. It's not defined within the definition of the word. It is the context that determines that length of an age.

    Also regarding your 22 verses, you seem to think that an inference is a fact. The two are quite different. The conclusions you draw from your comparisons are simply inferences. They are your inferences. They may be right or they may be wrong. The passages you quote are facts, your conclusions are inferences, not facts. As such they are subject to be wrong.
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Someone saying I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh! is not addressing anything. That is what most of the opposition to my posts consist of, no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence
    Your opinion of me or anyone else saying "wrong" is irrelevant to me. I am acting like an adult. If you can't handle being proven wrong you're in the wrong place. As they say if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen,

    You very evidently do not know what "cut and paste" usually means. Correct you did not say anything about a "garbage dump" but you did imply that Gehenna was a place where bodies were burned. The several references I quoted prove that to be false.

    Now regarding your 22 verses. All you've proven is that you don't know how to make logical argument. You argument is itself a logical fallacy. It's a "False Dilemma." It's an either or argument. You argue that aionios can't mean a finite period of time because it means eternal. That's an either or argument. However, there is another option. That being that aionios doesn't mean finite or infinite. An age is an undefined period of time. It's not defined within the definition of the word. It is the context that determines that length of an age.
    Also regarding your 22 verses, you seem to think that an inference is a fact. The two are quite different. The conclusions you draw from your comparisons are simply inferences. They are your inferences. They may be right or they may be wrong. The passages you quote are facts, your conclusions are inferences, not facts. As such they are subject to be wrong
    .
    Everybody with a Strong's thinks they are a Greek and Hebrew expert. You misrepresent my post in order to make your own false beliefs appear correct. I did not say anything about aionios not meaning anything. But I have quoted the complete definition of aion from BDAD which shows that sion does in fact mean eternal, everlasting, endless etc.
    .....Before one presumes to lecture on the meaning of words in another language they should know what they are talking about. I have found that many who do that couldn't parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it.
    .....Your lecture on "inference" is misguided. You might wish to acquaint yourself with the grammatical term "apposition." See for example Paul's use of the words "aidios" and "aidios." And you obviously do not know what a "false dilemma" argument is.
     
  20. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Because you reject any evidence that disagrees with your inspired, infallible references as non creditable. Your statement is also nonsense as I've shown you from Scripture that aion is used of finite periods of time.



    Heat? You're not even luke warm. You haven't proven anyone wrong. Your inferences aren't facts they're simple your inferences. And, as I've pointed out your argument in the logical fallacy of the "False Dilemma".




    No, if you actually paid attention to what was posted you'd see that it's in the future. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. If you read the quote in Isaiah it speaks of the new heaven and new. That's where the bodies will burn. And once again, it's bodies. It's not spirits, it's not Ghosts or souls, it's bodies. Bodies burning in the Lake of Fire, Gehenna. So there goes your ECT doctrine down the tubes.


    I agree, one should know what they're talking about. That's why you should look at the passages that use aion of finite periods of time so you won't mislead people into thinking it means eternal.

    That seems to be your typical response, People obviously don't know this or that. I know what a False Dilemma is. Just like the other fallacies I've pointed out in your arguments. The only thing misguided is your argument. It's fallacious and loaded with inferences. Until you realize that inferences aren't facts there's like not going to be much progress.
     
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