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Featured Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jordan Henshaw, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I will address your view of aion at the end.
    "False dilemma" requires an either/or situation. I did not present an either/or situation. I made a statement then provided scripture to support my premise.

    I agree Isa 66:24 is about the future but it does not refer to the valley of Hinnom. If there is even one verse which states that someone/something is thrown into the lake of fire but they do not die then your argument is destroyed.

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    One of those thrown into the LOF, the false prophet, was a human. While the lake of fire is called the second death not one single verse says that anyone/anything dies in the lake of fire. So lake of fire and second death are interchangeable terms, The lake of fire is the second death or the second death is the lake of fire.
    Anything that anyone says about scripture which is not specifically stated in scripture is an inference. Some inferences can be wrong but inferences which are based on sound evidence are more correct than those that aren't.
    Here is one of the 22 verses which I posted. In this verse “aionios” is paired with “without end.” “aionios” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionios” by definition here means eternal. Prove me wrong?

    Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

    Matthew 16:26
    (26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]
    Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"
    1 John 5:19
    (19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
    Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?
    Revelation 12:9
    (9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
    Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?
    Revelation 13:3
    (3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
    Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?
    Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.
    Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?
    Acts of the apostles 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,
    Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"
    Acts of the apostles 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?
    Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?
    Acts of the apostles 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.
    Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"
    Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
    Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"
    Acts of the apostles 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth
    Did "all the world" literally worship the goddess Diana?
    Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    Was the faith of the Romans literally spoke of throughout "the whole world?"
    Let us use your reasoning on these verses. The phrases "the whole world" and "all the world" cannot literally mean the entire planet earth because they are used to describe things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."


     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Your post is unreadable.
     
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    That's correct. Yet you are arguing that aion must mean eternal because it is not finite. There you've given two options, finite or infinite. However, I have clearly shown a third option. An age, an undefined period of time.


    If you agree it's future then why the post about there not being any historical evidence. We wouldn't expect any if the event is future. Jesus quotes Isaiah 66 and calls it Gehenna.


    What does this prove? Isn't the word aion the one we've been debating? How is using the word in question as evidence helping your case? However, even if this was speaking of a human burning forever, it doesn't prove your ETC doctrine. All it would prove is that one human would be burning forever. This passage speaks of specific individuals not all of mankind. This passage doesn't help the ETC doctrine one bit. All it would prove if your understanding was correct is that the false prophet would burn forever. No other humans are mentioned. However, as I said, it doesn't prove your doctrine because it's not forever. As Jeremiah prophesied Gehenna will one day be holy to the Lord, thus it won't burn for eternity. Thus aion doesn't mean eternal.


    Correct. However, we have to be careful because additional information can lead to us changing an inference.



    What do you say of Paul's words?

    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)

    What about John's words?

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6 KJV)



    Yeah, It's hyperbole. What's your point with these passages?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  5. jesus316

    jesus316 All Truth is in Jesus Supporter

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    Maybe the Bible teaches this. Maybe not.
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Please show me where I have given two options?
    What did many 1st century Jews of Jesus time, whom He taught and preached to, understand about Gehenna? There is no literary or archaeological evidence that the valley of Hinnom was ever used as a dump for burning trash or bodies. They believed in a place of fiery eternal torment which they called both Gehinnom and sheol, evidence provided previously.
    URites and annihilationists assume that everyone thrown into the LOF dies since the LOF is called "the second death." However, I have shown three living beings are thrown into the LOF but they do not die. Thus the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.
    One should take their own advice before looking at the speck in someone else's eye.
    What do you say of Paul's words?

    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)

    Do you think the words of Paul trump the words of the angel of God? Maybe you should interpret the words of Paul to agree with the words of the angel of God instead of the wrong way round?

    Luke 1:30-33
    (30) But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.
    (31) You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.
    (32) He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
    (33) and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."
    What exactly do you think this proves? Those who have part of the first resurrection shall reign with God and Christ for a thousand years. This says nothing about the length of Christs reign.
    But according to the UR/annihilationist argument aion/aionios cannot be used hyperbolically.
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You've posted several times that aion cannot mean finite because it means infinite. That's two options.

    What they believed doesn't change the Scriptures. Jesus quoted Isaiah 66 and called it Gehenna. He was speaking of a future event. You keep arguing that there is no evidence. We wouldn't expect to find evidence of an event that hasn't occurred yet.

    Yet you've used the very word in question to do so. You believe you've proven your point because you're using aion as eternal. Yet that has been refuted. Thus your quote of Rev 20 has not proven your case about the Lake of fire.

    This argument doesn't even make sense. If ETC were true then the wicked would suffer for eternity. So, in the end no one would die in the second death. Why is it called the second death if no one dies?

    Also it's called the second death. It's the second of a kind. The second means it's like the first, it's the second one. The first one is physical death. Likewise the second one is physical death. Thus we see in Isaiah 66 burning corpses, not souls, not spirits, but corpses.

    I do. I'm always aware of anything that I infer. I don't present it as fact. My point is that you're trying to prove your argument based on inferences rather than facts. Given that there are quite a few passages that use aion for a finite period of time it should give you pause to rethink your position. Additional evidence can always present itself that could make an inference wrong.

    Yet I notice you made no attempt to do so. Why? Do you not agree with what Paul said? Paul's statement seems pretty clear to me and the word aion is in question. Maybe we should interpret both passages so that they harmonize. If aion means an age, then the passage in Luke would say that Christ will reign for an age and His kingdom will have no end. That agrees with what Paul said, Christ shall reign until He has put down all authorities and then turn the kingdom over to the Father. This way both passages harmonize and John's statement fits with this too.

    I really find your statement troubling. Do you think the reverse is true? Wasn't Paul personally instructed by Christ? Didn't Christ bring the word of God to man? I mean really, what do you make of Paul's words. It seems to me that you've simply rejected what he said. Do we pick and choose the parts of Scripture that we want to believe?

    Another thing to remember is that Luke was a man just like Paul. I'm pretty sure you didn't personally hear the angle speak to Mary.

    Correct, it doesn't state it plainly. However, given Paul's statement it does bear on the subject.

    I don't know about the " UR/annihilationist argument." I simply argue from the Scriptures.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2018
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    If you want me to respond to your posts, post correctly so I can. Place a quote block [QU0TE] at the beginning of a section you want to address separately and a close quote block [/QU0TE] at the end of that section. Preview your post and correct any quote errors. Once again I point out your error. The angel of God said,
    Luke 1:30-33
    (30) But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.
    (31) You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.
    (32) He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
    (33) and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."
    You countered with,
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)
    I said "Do you think the words of Paul trump the words of the angel of God? Maybe you should interpret the words of Paul to agree with the words of the angel of God instead of the wrong way round?" But you insist that we ignore the words of the angel and accept your interpretation of Paul's words.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Can you quote a single URite (i.e. universal reconciliation doctrine believer) who has ever said what you say above, that:

    "URites and annihilationists assume that everyone thrown into the LOF dies since the LOF is called "the second death."

    How is it that a spirit being such as Satan would die a second death in the LOF?

    100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How would you know when it is being used in hyperbole? Is this hyperbole:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    More examples re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually the post by Butch5 showed how 1 Cor.15:24-26 harmonizes with aion in Lk.1:33 being finite. OTOH you didn't show how Lk.1:33 harmonizes with 1 Cor.15.

    12 points re forever and ever being finite:
    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Ooops my bad I should not have included UR-ites. They believe that everyone is going to be saved no matter what. Still waiting for a response to this.
    .....The recidivism rate for US prisons is 66+ %. Out of 1000 prisoners released more than 6600 will return. Many of them blame everyone but themselves for their punishment;judges, juries, lawyers, witnesses etc. And many try to take revenge on the people they blame.

    .....After a wicked person has been tormented in fire for an indeterminate time will they be rehabilitated and filled with warm fuzzies and love for God who punished them or will they do what most criminals do today?


    Who said he was a "spirit being?" Actually scripture says Satan, the beast and the false prophet will not a first or second death but will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    .....Please show me one verse where "Love Ominpotent," Himself, says that He will save everyone no matter what? Surely such important information as this must be clearly stated somewhere?
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Must have been one of those posts I can't read or quote. 1 Cor 15 covers a lot of material. If you have a question about Lk 1:33 and 1 Cor 15 please state it and I will address it. I haven't quite mastered the art of mind reading.
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually they believe everyone will be saved. And that through Jesus Christ, Who is the only Way, Truth & Life (Jn.14:6). Not saved "no matter what", whatever that is supposed to mean.

    If Love Omnipotent doesn't save them, is it because He can't or doesn't want to? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Irrelevant not scripture.
    Irrelevant. Link to a "book" by a person with no stated or demonstrated expertise in Greek. Self published opinions have no validity.
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why can't you read or quote it. Here it is again (i've added >>> to show Butch5 responses in post #727 to your comments):

    Please show me where I have given two options?

    >>>You've posted several times that aion cannot mean finite because it means infinite. That's two options.

    What did many 1st century Jews of Jesus time, whom He taught and preached to, understand about Gehenna? There is no literary or archaeological evidence that the valley of Hinnom was ever used as a dump for burning trash or bodies. They believed in a place of fiery eternal torment which they called both Gehinnom and sheol, evidence provided previously.

    >>>What they believed doesn't change the Scriptures. Jesus quoted Isaiah 66 and called it Gehenna. He was speaking of a future event. You keep arguing that there is no evidence. We wouldn't expect to find evidence of an event that hasn't occurred yet.

    URites and annihilationists assume that everyone thrown into the LOF dies since the LOF is called "the second death." However, I have shown three living beings are thrown into the LOF but they do not die. Thus the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

    >>>Yet you've used the very word in question to do so. You believe you've proven your point because you're using aion as eternal. Yet that has been refuted. Thus your quote of Rev 20 has not proven your case about the Lake of fire.

    >>>This argument doesn't even make sense. If ETC were true then the wicked would suffer for eternity. So, in the end no one would die in the second death. Why is it called the second death if no one dies?

    >>>Also it's called the second death. It's the second of a kind. The second means it's like the first, it's the second one. The first one is physical death. Likewise the second one is physical death. Thus we see in Isaiah 66 burning corpses, not souls, not spirits, but corpses.

    One should take their own advice before looking at the speck in someone else's eye.

    >>>I do. I'm always aware of anything that I infer. I don't present it as fact. My point is that you're trying to prove your argument based on inferences rather than facts. Given that there are quite a few passages that use aion for a finite period of time it should give you pause to rethink your position. Additional evidence can always present itself that could make an inference wrong.

    Do you think the words of Paul trump the words of the angel of God? Maybe you should interpret the words of Paul to agree with the words of the angel of God instead of the wrong way round?

    Luke 1:30-33
    (30) But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.
    (31) You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.
    (32) He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
    (33) and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."
    Yet I notice you made no attempt to do so. Why? Do you not agree with what Paul said? Paul's statement seems pretty clear to me and the word aion is in question. Maybe we should interpret both passages so that they harmonize. If aion means an age, then the passage in Luke would say that Christ will reign for an age and His kingdom will have no end. That agrees with what Paul said, Christ shall reign until He has put down all authorities and then turn the kingdom over to the Father. This way both passages harmonize and John's statement fits with this too.

    >>>>I really find your statement troubling. Do you think the reverse is true? Wasn't Paul personally instructed by Christ? Didn't Christ bring the word of God to man? I mean really, what do you make of Paul's words. It seems to me that you've simply rejected what he said. Do we pick and choose the parts of Scripture that we want to believe?

    >>>Another thing to remember is that Luke was a man just like Paul. I'm pretty sure you didn't personally hear the angle speak to Mary.

    What exactly do you think this proves? Those who have part of the first resurrection shall reign with God and Christ for a thousand years. This says nothing about the length of Christs reign.

    >>>Correct, it doesn't state it plainly. However, given Paul's statement it does bear on the subject.

    But according to the UR/annihilationist argument aion/aionios cannot be used hyperbolically.

    >>>I don't know about the " UR/annihilationist argument." I simply argue from the Scriptures.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    "Saved no matter what" means that God supposedly will save everyone including unrepentant mass murderers, rapists, pedophiles etc.

    The same same empty platitudes no, zero, none scripture. Please show me one verse where "Love Ominpotent," Himself, says that He will save everyone no matter what, including e.g. unrepentant mass murderers, rapists, pedophiles etc? Surely such important information as this must be clearly stated somewhere?
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Then are also all your quotes re Jewish beliefs & opinions irrelevant? And your quotes of church fathers? And opinions of lexicons? And BDAG references to non scriptural usages of aionios? So you won't be quoting any of these ever again, since they are, as you say, "Irrelevant not scripture"?
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I wouldn't say it cannot be (concievably) used in hyperbole, but how would you know when it is being used in hyperbole? Is this hyperbole:

    "end of the age" (Mt.24:3)

    If yes, how do you know it is hyperbole? Did Jesus send an angel to tell you?

    Can you quote a single lexicon, scholar, ECF or commentary in the past 2000 years who opines Mt.24:3 uses aion in hyperbole. Or are all opposed to your opinion re Mt.24:3?

    More examples re aion/ios (& olam) being finite:

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mass murderers...like Saul (who became the apostle Paul, the worst of sinners), who was persecuting Christ & the church, like an Inquisitionist, including both men & women? Or David, who committed premeditated murder & adultery after God had shown him many miracles? Or Thomas who refused to believe Christ was raised after Thomas had been with Jesus for years & seen numerous healings & works of God done by the Lord? But for the grace of God, there go we all. Is anything too difficult for Love Omnipotent?

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
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