Through the context.If aionios means both eternal and finite how do you determine which it is?
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Through the context.If aionios means both eternal and finite how do you determine which it is?
That's the point, you can't. People say it means eternal because they aleady believe that God is eternal. So basically, they use their theology to define the word. My point is that without context one cannot define an age.
"Aion" means "eternal, endless" etc. when it supports UR doctrine but when it doesn't then it means a finite period of time. How convenient.
What does it matter? You ignored the rest of Paul's letter to Timothy because it doesn't fit your agenda. What did Paul tell Timothy to do 2 Timothy 2:1-2? The same chapter your out-of-context proof text is from.
.....You said the "alleged ex-pagans." What were the inhabitants of Ephesus, and the rest of Asia [modern day Turkey] before Christians came, if not pagans? Since you can't even recognize that nothing you say means anything. Just pushing an agenda and ignoring anything which doesn't fit that agenda.
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Once again since you did not answer this what would the former pagan Christians, who had been taught about "hell," understand when Timothy read 2 Tim.2:24-25 to them? They did not have several Bibles on a laptop or tablet which they could whip out and look up all the verses which are usually thrown together to prove UR. .....In fact very few would even have a copy of this letter to refer to. Many of them could not even read. What would they understand when Timothy read "correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."
This verse does not support UR but contradicts it. If salvation was a done deal why did the writer say "perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth? Instead of "God will certainly grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth?"
You have never refuted anything I posted and you never will. You have yet to provide one single verse where God/Jesus clearly states that all mankind will be saved no matter what. All you or any other URite has ever done is quote a handful of out-of-context proof texts thrown together regardless of context.Clearly your position is untenable, erroneous & was refuted:
Please show me any historical evidence that prior to Christian evangelism the Greek pagans in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Thessalonika etc. did not believe in pagan God and their form of hell. On virtually every page of this forum someone claims that the Christian belief in hell was copied from Greek paganism but when I say that you claim they didn't.The letter was written to Timothy, not ex-pagans. So the more pertinent question is how Timothy would have understood Paul's remark in 2 Tim.2:24-25. The answer is in accord with Paul's teachings re universalism, e.g. Rom.5:18-19; 1 Cor.15:22-28; Phil.2:9-11; Eph.1:10; Col.1:16,20, 1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:9-11; etc.
So what would Timothy have taught these alleged ex-pagans? Exactly the same teaching of universalism that Paul taught.
How do you know Timothy read Paul's letter to Timothy to illiterate, uneducated ex-pagans who believed in some sort of a "hell"? Would that be a universalist type of "hell" or some horror-fantasy like Dante's Inferno or an annihilationist "hell" or something else? Were all converts to Christianity believers in a God or an afterlife, e.g. Sadducee types?
Each time the "Lord's bond-servant" does what 2 Tim.2:24-25 says, it is possible "God may grant them repentance". The verse puts no time limit on when one may repent or the number of opportunities Love Omnipotent will grant people to repent, either in this life or postmortem. Therefore it does not contradict UR (universalism) & is perfectly in harmony with it as taught elsewhere in the Scriptures. God has all eternity & unlimited love & opportunities for repentance & salvation for His created beings.
Total nonsense! There is absolutely no way the free will and autonomy of mankind can be calculated mathematically.It's mathematically impossible anyone could reject him forever.
Several ridiculous arguments here. Is the will of God fulfilled in every situation?Evidently the Christian persecutor called Saul, who became the apostle Paul, had been refusing to repent, for when Christ appeared to him Jesus said to him it is hard to keep kicking against the goads. And why do you persecute Me?
2Tim.2:24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
Through the context.
How you define eonian in Rom.16:26; 2 Thess.1:9; Mt.25:46?
An age
You have never refuted anything I posted and you never will.
This verse does not support UR but contradicts it. If salvation was a done deal why did the writer say "perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth? Instead of "God will certainly grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth?"
You obviously erred in several comments including:begin
Please show me a verse where God or Jesus is speaking and they say unequivocally all mankind will be saved no matter what?
Good post, allow me to add:The bible distinctly teaches that immortality is a gift given to the elect only, the bible repeatedly describes the wicked as being destroyed, burned up, and killed (souls included), and the bible demonstrates the nature of God’s wrath against unrighteousness by unleashing it unto Jesus in the form of physical death after momentary spiritual separation, and not eternal conscious torment.
Point 1: The bible specifically states more than 34 times throughout scripture that immortality is given as a gift to the righteous only. In Genesis, God casts Adam and Eve out of the garden specifically to protect them from the curse of immortality.
1 John 3:15; Mark 10:17; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:18; John 3:16; John 5:39; John 6:54; John 6:68; John 10:28; John 17:2; John 17:3; Acts 13:48; Romans 2:7; Romans 5:21; Romans 6:23; 1 Timothy 6:19; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 2:25; 1 John 3:15; 1 John 5:11; 1 John 5:13; 1 John 5:20; Jude 1:21; Genesis 3:22; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 22:2; Revelation 22:14; John 4:14; Revelation 21:6; 1 Corinthians 15:53; 1 Corinthians 15:54; 1 Timothy 6:16
Point 2: The bible expressly states that the wicked shall be destroyed, slaughtered, and burned to ashes repeatedly throughout scripture. Our example of what will happen to the wicked is Sodom, which is no longer burning.
Mathew 10:28; Romans 6:23; James 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 5:16; Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8; Philippians 3:19; Psalm 145:20; Mathew 7:13; Psalm 68:2; John 3:16; John 10:28; Jude 1:7
Point 3: If the punishment for sin was eternal conscious torment, Jesus must still be dead. Or else his tiny sacrifice of simply death must be meaningless in the face of God’s eternal anger.
Isaiah 53:5-6; John 10:11; 1 Peter 2:24; Mark 10:45; Hebrews 10:9; Romans 3:25; 1 Peter 3:18; Ephesians 5:25; Leviticus 16:10; 1 John 3:16; Deuteronomy 21:22
The supporters of eternal conscious torment use the following passages as core support:1. “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” - Isaiah 66:22-24
Ellicot’s Commentary for English Readers Isaiah 66:24 "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." - “...devoured by worms, or given to the flames. Taken strictly, therefore, the words do not speak of the punishment of the souls of men after death, but of the defeat and destruction upon earth of the enemies of Jehovah…Even so taken, however, with this wider range, it is still a question whether the words are to be taken literally or figuratively (though this, perhaps, is hardly a question), whether the bodies, which represent souls, are thought of as not destroyed, but only tormented, or as consumed to nothing, by the fire and by the worm…”
The commentators are unsure whether or not the worm is literal or figurative. They seem to take the side of ECT, but admit it isn’t clear either way.
The book of Isaiah is known for being the most poetic, figurative book in the Old Testament.
Also,
Quench - the definition of quench
verb (used with object)
2. to put out or extinguish (fire, flames, etc.).
3. to cool suddenly by plunging into a liquid, as in tempering steel by immersion in water.
2. “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” - Daniel 12:1-2
This simply means that their name will forever be held in contempt; that they will never be redeemed. Such as how the people of Sodom are held in contempt even today. 4,000 years later, and most people seem to know that the Sodomites were bad people. Everlasting contempt. The Sodomites will never be redeemed.
3. “It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.” - Mathew 18:6-9
“In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.” – Jude 1:7
Sodom is no longer burning, despite having been burned by this eternal fire.
4. "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Mathew 25:31-46
Eternal in result, not in cause. In other words, the death of a human being is eternal (at least if dead for a certain period of time). A dead human will never come back to life. The result of that death lasts forever and ever. But the person isn’t suffering eternal death. The process of death itself is not eternal. It is quick.
Likewise, God’s punishment for the wicked is eternal in result, or in consequence. But certainly not eternal in process, or in action.
5. “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” - Revelation 14:9-11
“For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever. But pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation” – Isaiah 34:8-11
How can an owl, raven, pelican, and hedgehog dwell in this land if it is burning forever?
Also, the symbolic imagery of “smoke rising from a destroyed city” is not new: “…and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace.” – Genesis 19:28. This imagery is a symbol. The prophet Isaiah is best known for being one of the more poetic writers of the bible. Put two and two together and it makes sense that he would use such imagery and it is perfectly reasonable to believe that he is speaking figuratively when he says the smoke will “go up forever and ever”. In other words, he is speaking of the permanent destruction of the city. While the physical smoke may have dissipated, the memory of it will remain forever and ever. It symbolically will continue to rise.
http://rethinkinghell.com/2017/04/a-primer-on-revelation-149-11/
6. “And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - Revelation 20:10; 14-15
This is talking about the Beast, Devil, and False Prophet. Not humans.
http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2015/12/a-primer-on-revelation-2010/
7. “Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." - Luke 16:19-31
If this passage is meant to be taken as a literal picture of the end times, and not as a metaphorical parable, as proponents of eternal conscious torment suggest, a plethora of massive problems arise. For example, how can a man in hell speak to a man in heaven like he was face to face, despite the “great chasm” that separates them? Also, how can all the righteous fit into Abraham’s bosom? Also, how can Heaven be anywhere near perfect if all the screams from people being eternally tortured in hell are clearly audible?
It is clear that this passage, while uncharacteristic of most other parables, is not meant to be taken as a literal picture of the end times.
Conclusion:The bible distinctly teaches that immortality is a gift given to the elect only, the bible repeatedly describes the wicked as being destroyed, burned up, and killed (souls included), and the bible demonstrates the nature of God’s wrath against unrighteousness by unleashing it unto Jesus in the form of physical death after momentary spiritual separation, and not eternal conscious torment.
Annihilationism is therefore...biblical.
Finite or eternal? Why?
How do you know Young's is correct? Just because a translation agrees with one's assumptions/presuppositions that does not make it correct.It depends on the context. In Romans 16:26 there is nothing in the context to tell us the length of the age. The word is aionios which is an adjective. I think Youngs literal translation does well with it's translation of age-during.
What makes you think the lake of fire will not exist forever?YLT Romans 16:26 and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --
However, we do know from the apostle Paul that the Father alone has immortality. Therefore the age in Romans 16:26 is likely endless.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 is the same word. Again, there is no time given in the context except the word destruction. If they are destroyed one could expect that to be permanent. Unless of course God restored them.
Regarding Mathew 25:46, it is finite. The punishment is not unending. We know that because the Lake of fire will not exist forever, therefore the punishment won't.
Context:... What makes you think the lake of fire will not exist forever? ...
How do you know Young's is correct? Just because a translation agrees with one's assumptions/presuppositions that does not make it correct.
What makes you think the lake of fire will not exist forever?
No it does not as I proved in my post [#713] this thread where I quoted 22 verses which prove that aion/aionios mean eternity/eternal but it was ignored because it doesn't fit your agenda.Because it fits all of the occurrences of the word.
John said the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus said the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. The only way to reconcile these is to conclude that the they are the same place. The prophet Jeremiah prophesied that Gehenna would, one day, be made holy to the Lord again.begin
Jeremiah does not even mention Gehenna. There is no archaeological or literary evidence that Ge Hinnom was ever used as a dump for burning trash or bodies. Archaeological and literary evidence shows a valley which was used as a dump the Kidron valley which Jeremiah does mention. I recommend that you do actual research and not depend on internet "fake news" for your beliefs.
While Revelation 21:1 KJB states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:....begin
I hope you don't really think anyone is going to read 11 pages of copy/paste. Here are a few errors I noticed when I skimmed through your post. Near the beginning you indicate that "no more sea" Rev 21:1 refers to water. Later you indicate that if refers to the lake of fire. Which is it?
As shown, the words, of Revelation 20:10, "even for ever and ever", are Koine Greek, "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων", which when seen in their context, locally and globally through the scripture [KJB], do not always mean eternal, but can mean limited in time, and can even deal with distance, or even spacial "world".begin
Please see my post [#713] this thread where I show that aion/aionios mean eternity/eternal.end]
Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.begin
Even as you quoted it Mal 4:3 says nothing about the lake of fire.
No it does not as I proved in my post [#713] this thread where I quoted 22 verses which prove that aion/aionios mean eternity/eternal but it was ignored because it doesn't fit your agenda.
Jeremiah does not even mention Gehenna. There is no archaeological or literary evidence that Ge Hinnom was ever used as a dump for burning trash or bodies. Archaeological and literary evidence shows a valley which was used as a dump the Kidron valley which Jeremiah does mention. I recommend that you do actual research and not depend on internet "fake news" for your beliefs.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223,)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
Someone saying I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh! is not addressing anything. That is what most of the opposition to my posts consist of, no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidenceNo, it was ignored because you just post the same things over and over even though they've already been addressed.
Your opinion of me or anyone else saying "wrong" is irrelevant to me. I am acting like an adult. If you can't handle being proven wrong you're in the wrong place. As they say if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen,This is why I don't respond to many of your posts. You're rude and I'm getting tired of your attitude. I don't care how many letters, if any, you have after your name, I'm not impressed. All a degree means is that one is educated in an erroneous theology. You don't engage in discussion you just try to prove everyone wrong. I don't know how many times I've seen you post "Wrong!". Well, you know, I find that people who go "Wrong!", usually are. Now if you're going to have a conversation with me you'll need to start acting like an adult.
You very evidently do not know what "cut and paste" usually means. Correct you did not say anything about a "garbage dump" but you did imply that Gehenna was a place where bodies were burned. The several references I quoted prove that to be false.Here you go with the garbage dump cut and paste again. I didn't say anything at all about a garbage dump.
Now regarding your 22 verses. All you've proven is that you don't know how to make logical argument. You argument is itself a logical fallacy. It's a "False Dilemma." It's an either or argument. You argue that aionios can't mean a finite period of time because it means eternal. That's an either or argument. However, there is another option. That being that aionios doesn't mean finite or infinite. An age is an undefined period of time. It's not defined within the definition of the word. It is the context that determines that length of an age.begin
Everybody with a Strong's thinks they are a Greek and Hebrew expert. You misrepresent my post in order to make your own false beliefs appear correct. I did not say anything about aionios not meaning anything. But I have quoted the complete definition of aion from BDAD which shows that sion does in fact mean eternal, everlasting, endless etc.
Someone saying I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh! is not addressing anything. That is what most of the opposition to my posts consist of, no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence
Your opinion of me or anyone else saying "wrong" is irrelevant to me. I am acting like an adult. If you can't handle being proven wrong you're in the wrong place. As they say if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen,
You very evidently do not know what "cut and paste" usually means. Correct you did not say anything about a "garbage dump" but you did imply that Gehenna was a place where bodies were burned. The several references I quoted prove that to be false.
Everybody with a Strong's thinks they are a Greek and Hebrew expert. You misrepresent my post in order to make your own false beliefs appear correct. I did not say anything about aionios not meaning anything. But I have quoted the complete definition of aion from BDAD which shows that sion does in fact mean eternal, everlasting, endless etc.
.....Before one presumes to lecture on the meaning of words in another language they should know what they are talking about. I have found that many who do that couldn't parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it.
.....Your lecture on "inference" is misguided. You might wish to acquaint yourself with the grammatical term "apposition." See for example Paul's use of the words "aidios" and "aidios." And you obviously do not know what a "false dilemma" argument is.