Annihilation=No Wrath

[Diamond72]

We aren't yet complete persons.

The Bible talks about a new heaven and a new earth but I do not know what that means.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Bible talks about a new heaven and a new earth but I do not know what that means.

The earth (literal) is not developing into something God will convert. The heaven may be of a different nature from what we imagine it to be, even now, and certainly then. But we know that the literal "we" will be changed —not exactly remade nor annihilated, but glorified— and, in fact, may even be of a different nature from temporal flesh, but still the same us.

So many different speculations I have heard, and the best are always, to me, anyway, that what we take for granted as substance, within eternity becomes of a different sort of thing altogether. For example, language whose words are the actual thing, and not to represent the thing. A place where decision isn't even a matter of discussion. Distance being only a thought away. —Stuff like that makes a certain sense to me because God is infinite, and our ways are not his ways, and we are not now what we will be. The "Sons of God" of Romans 8:19 (which I believe to be the redeemed) are yet to be revealed. But that event is something that all creation is eagerly waiting for.

 

[Diamond72]

The heaven may be of a different nature from what we imagine it to be, even now, and certainly then. But we know that the literal "we" will be changed —not exactly remade nor annihilated, but glorified— and, in fact, may even be of a different nature from temporal flesh, but still the same us.

This would mean the laws of physics would change. Matthew 5:19 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

It is difficult to understand how we leave our body behind. They say our "spiritual" body looks enough like this one that people are able to recognize us and know who we are. My wife's best friend just died. She was married to my best friend at the time who died 5 years ago. I imagine they are in Heaven now and perhaps he is showing her and teaching her about what life is like there in Heaven.

Maybe even if there is no marriage in Heaven they get along better there than they did here on the Earth living in the flesh the way we do.

 

[Diamond72]

So many different speculations I have heard, and the best are always, to me, anyway, that what we take for granted as substance, within eternity becomes of a different sort of thing altogether. For example, language whose words are the actual thing, and not to represent the thing. A place where decision isn't even a matter of discussion. Distance being only a thought away. —Stuff like that makes a certain sense to me because God is infinite, and our ways are not his ways, and we are not now what we will be. The "Sons of God" of Romans 8:19 (which I believe to be the redeemed) are yet to be revealed. But that event is something that all creation is eagerly waiting for

That is interesting. Decision or choice is a very big consideration here. Perhaps there we will be more inline with God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That is interesting. Decision or choice is a very big consideration here. Perhaps there we will be more inline with God.

No doubt about it. He is our very sustenance there. It may even be a reasonable use of the idea that he is our very substance, there, but that may go too far in meaning for some. One thing for sure: We are made in his image, and are no more of the world than Christ was (John 17). And there, we will see it for fact.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This would mean the laws of physics would change. Matthew 5:19 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

It is difficult to understand how we leave our body behind. They say our "spiritual" body looks enough like this one that people are able to recognize us and know who we are. My wife's best friend just died. She was married to my best friend at the time who died 5 years ago. I imagine they are in Heaven now and perhaps he is showing her and teaching her about what life is like there in Heaven.

Maybe even if there is no marriage in Heaven they get along better there than they did here on the Earth living in the flesh the way we do.

I don't think we really leave our body behind. Just the state of it as we consider it "alive" now. But I don't know what it will mean, to say that God will glorify it, either. One thing I am pretty sure of, is that when we are gone from here, there will not be a measurement of time until our bodies are raised and glorified, united with our spirits. We only measure time this way here during THIS existence, which is not relevant there—at least, certainly not in the same way.

I think that appearing there as we do now, is putting it backwards. It was for Heaven that God created those to whom he chose to show mercy, each of them the particular members of The Bride he intended them to become, once they are glorified. THAT is what we look like, but what we see on earth is only a poor representation. I think we will be much more adept at recognizing each other there, than we are now.

Lol, I also think that putting it this way is only "a way to look at the matter". I'm pretty sure that the reality of it is infinitely better than whatever I can describe.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Bible talks about a new heaven and a new earth but I do not know what that means.

Me either. But I'm full of notions —er, ideas...!

 

[BurningBush84]

My conscience, my flesh, my sinful nature would LOVE to believe in Annihilation theology,,, in fact , it CRAVES Annihilation Theology,,, my sinful nature craves Annihilation Theology...

Why ???? Because it means my sins have no eternal consequences for me personally. Annihilation theology gives me a license to sin.
The Annihilatied will not KNOW what they are missing(Heaven) because they don't exist . The Annihilatied will never have to ENDURE any eternal punishment. The Annihilatied are basically Resting In Peace , which is a reward, not a punishment ,,,,did God reward Hitler with Resting In Peace forever ? ?? If Hitler believed in ECT, he never would have committed suicide, nor would ANYONE,,, people commit suicide because Satan tricks them into believing suicide will end their pain,,,, but for most suicidals ,,, suicide sends them to ECT
(Luke 16:19-31)
.

 

[JulieB67]

. Absolutely no eternal consequences for the wicked unbeliever.

The second death, the death of the soul is a consequence.

Annihilation theology gives me a license to sin.

What, for a lifetime? A very very short time in the grand scheme of things, especially where God and time are concerned. As God states the wicked have their reward which is this lifetime. When in reality this lifetime is nothing compared to the eternity. It's just a pit stop. The problem with the eternal hell doctrine is that in many instances it brings people to God in fear instead of love.

I always ask people these questions. What about people that are of a different religion and were raised that way and died that way. First, do you believe they are burning in hell right now and second will they burn for an eternity?

 

[BurningBush84]

The second death, the death of the soul is a consequence.



What, for a lifetime? A very very short time in the grand scheme of things, especially where God and time are concerned. As God states the wicked have their reward which is this lifetime. When in reality this lifetime is nothing compared to the eternity. It's just a pit stop. The problem with the eternal hell doctrine is that in many instances it brings people to God in fear instead of love.

I always ask people these questions. What about people that are of a different religion and were raised that way and died that way. First, do you believe they are burning in hell right now and second will they burn for an eternity?

All throughout the Bible it says to "fear God". As for people of different religions, what does John 14:6 say ? Also Luke 12:48 says the ones who don't know the Lord will receive a LESS severe punishment, but punishment nonetheless.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Once again I am accused of "prooftexting" there is a BIG difference between an out-of-context "proof text" and an in context scripture posted in support of a point. I do the latter. For example. Matthew 7:21-23. I post this passage and immediately the nay sayers, "Nuh uh it doesn't mean what it says."

EOB Matt 7:21 It is not everyone who tells me, ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, did not we prophesy in your Name, cast out demons in your Name and do many deeds of power in your Name?’ 2 ’Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you! Depart from me, you who do what is wicked.’ ​

Neither God nor Jesus ever said that all mankind will enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact, Jesus, Himself, said just the opposite, "not everyone ...will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven..." Then Jesus will say, "Many," NOT a few, "will tell me in that Day,", i.e. Judgement day, "Lord, Lord, did not we ...do many deeds of power in your Name?" To this Jesus will reply, "'I never knew you! Depart from me, you who do what is wicked." When Jesus says never, He means never not someday by and by.
Please tell me how this is an out-of-context proof text? And I am positive I can poke holes in any argument you post.
Link to EOB online. Matt 7:21-23 in on pg. 53

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

I’m just a bit curious … according to this teaching of Jesus, have you ever wondered if you might be one of them who “thought” they belonged to Him but are sorely mistaken? If not, you really, really should because according to Jesus you most likely are in the group of self deceived believers!

I believe the real purpose of the carnally minded doctrine of hell is to inflict God’s people with doubt, mental anguish and prevent them from enjoying the abundant life Jesus promised to those believing on Him would have.

Personally, the only people I know or have ever known, that are tormented by the heinously wicked doctrine of hell are those who profess that Jesus is the Christ. Never once did I think about hell prior to believing in the Christ. I remember hearing RC Sproul, in his closing prayer after teaching the Scripture, say something along these lines (paraphrased): Lord, if I have deceived myself in to believing I am counted as one of yours, and find myself awake in the eternal flames of hell, then I deserve to be there and you are righteous in your judgement of my eternal damnation. WOW …

That kind of false piety makes me sick. What is the message he declared in that prayer? Let me tell you. You can never really be sure you are one of His. That is the message I heard all through my walk of faith while I was being deceived by my adversary. This is completely opposite of what the beloved Apostle John said concerning the writing of Scripture and its intent (1st John 5:13). Pretty sure I didn’t take anything out of context.

PS A personal question, no need to answer. Just a question to you concerning your doctrinal position on hell. Remember, faith without good works is dead and I am hard pressed to think of a more important work than telling people they are headed for hell, that is if you really believe in this awful place.

How often are you proclaiming to the unbelieving that they are on their way to hell? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? I also found that the majority of people I know who profess Christ to be very neglectful in this area of their walk of faith. I remember hearing a pastor say, while he was presenting the Gospel to a man, the man stopped him and said (paraphrased) if I really believed in hell like you say you do, I would crawl across hot coals of fire to warn of this horrific place that awaits them. How about you sir?

blessing,

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

You're deflecting and avoiding answering the question. Is Matthew 25:31-46, especially the whole conclusion in verse 46, literal or figurative?

That is all I have seen him do in this discussion. I’m only in to the 9th page of reading this discussion and all his tactics are: answer a question with a question, repeat the same thing ad nausea without addressing the question, ridicule and formulate statements that the other person never said or implied and deflect … deflect … deflect …

Your perseverance and humility in defending your position is commendable and honoring to the Lord.

blessings,

 

[Der Alte]

I’m just a bit curious … according to this teaching of Jesus, have you ever wondered if you might be one of them who “thought” they belonged to Him but are sorely mistaken? If not, you really, really should because according to Jesus you most likely are in the group of self deceived believers!

I believe the real purpose of the carnally minded doctrine of hell is to inflict God’s people with doubt, mental anguish and prevent them from enjoying the abundant life Jesus promised to those believing on Him would have.

Personally, the only people I know or have ever known, that are tormented by the heinously wicked doctrine of hell are those who profess that Jesus is the Christ. Never once did I think about hell prior to believing in the Christ. I remember hearing RC Sproul, in his closing prayer after teaching the Scripture, say something along these lines (paraphrased): Lord, if I have deceived myself in to believing I am counted as one of yours, and find myself awake in the eternal flames of hell, then I deserve to be there and you are righteous in your judgement of my eternal damnation. WOW …

That kind of false piety makes me sick. What is the message he declared in that prayer? Let me tell you. You can never really be sure you are one of His. That is the message I heard all through my walk of faith while I was being deceived by my adversary. This is completely opposite of what the beloved Apostle John said concerning the writing of Scripture and its intent (1st John 5:13). Pretty sure I didn’t take anything out of context.

PS A personal question, no need to answer. Just a question to you concerning your doctrinal position on hell. Remember, faith without good works is dead and I am hard pressed to think of a more important work than telling people they are headed for hell, that is if you really believe in this awful place.

How often are you proclaiming to the unbelieving that they are on their way to hell? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? I also found that the majority of people I know who profess Christ to be very neglectful in this area of their walk of faith. I remember hearing a pastor say, while he was presenting the Gospel to a man, the man stopped him and said (paraphrased) if I really believed in hell like you say you do, I would crawl across hot coals of fire to warn of this horrific place that awaits them. How about you sir?

blessing,

I notice that your post does NOT specifically address anything I said.
Jeremiah 13:10-11
(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Romans 1:24
(24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Romans 1:26
(26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:28
(28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

And I noticed you have not answered if you have considered if you are one of those who are self deceived. Nor have you responded to your actions matching up to your belief in hell.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

By the way Der Alte, the questions I asked you are the very questions I asked myself when I was a deceived and was challenged to take a look at my heart to see if it lined up with my life and what I said. I was Not pleased with what I found.

 

[JulieB67]

All throughout the Bible it says to "fear God". As for people of different religions, what does John 14:6 say ? Also Luke 12:48 says the ones who don't know the Lord will receive a LESS severe punishment, but punishment nonetheless.

Christ states very specifically we are to fear the one that can both destroy (fully in the Greek) both body and soul in hell.

He also states the the Lake of Fire is the second death. Which totally coincides with Matthew 10:28

 

[BurningBush84]

Christ states very specifically we are to fear the one that can both destroy (fully in the Greek) both body and soul in hell.

He also states the the Lake of Fire is the second death. Which totally coincides with Matthew 10:28

Ive never seen the word annihilate in any version of the bible. And to say destruction and annihilation mean the exact same thing is very naive.

Annihilation is basically Resting In Peace forever which is a blessing not a punishment. Jesus saves people from resting in peace ??? Makes no sense. But Jesus saving mankind from ECT makes him thee ultimate form of Savior.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Wow … you are one scary dude man. I don’t believe I have ever come across someone so “hell bent” on making sure the wicked get what’s coming to them. Man, there is no quit in you; and I haven’t detected one iota of compassion towards those who will go to this unimaginable fate you battle so hard to maintain as truth.

I have asked the following question to many who hold to the doctrine of ECT. If you believe Jesus died to pay the penalty for your sins, and that penalty is ECT … then Jesus must, Scripturally and by simple logic, suffer the eternal torment for all who place their faith in Him. Anything less is an incomplete sacrifice …

YOUR sin and faith, in accepting His offer of eternal life MANDATES He suffer the eternal consequences on your behalf. I’m sorry my brother, but you cannot have it both ways. Never mind the whole wicked world that is also doomed. YOU, by accepting His offer of forgiveness by faith, have secured His sacrificial offer of standing in your place and suffering the eternal conscious torment on your behalf!

Think about it …
blessings,

 

[BurningBush84]

Wow … you are one scary dude man. I don’t believe I have ever come across someone so “hell bent” on making sure the wicked get what’s coming to them. Man, there is no quit in you; and I haven’t detected one iota of compassion towards those who will go to this unimaginable fate you battle so hard to maintain as truth.

I have asked the following question to many who hold to the doctrine of ECT. If you believe Jesus died to pay the penalty for your sins, and that penalty is ECT … then Jesus must, Scripturally and by simple logic, suffer the eternal torment for all who place their faith in Him. Anything less is an incomplete sacrifice …

YOUR sin and faith, in accepting His offer of eternal life MANDATES He suffer the eternal consequences on your behalf. I’m sorry my brother, but you cannot have it both ways. Never mind the whole wicked world that is also doomed. YOU, by accepting His offer of forgiveness by faith, have secured His sacrificial offer of standing in your place and suffering the eternal conscious torment on your behalf!

Think about it …
blessings,

How could a loving God allow his one and only Son to be tortured to death ? Why not just a quick painless death ? Why all the SUFFERING ???

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

I’ll be happy to reply to your questions once you have replied to mine. More often than not, throughout this thread, you have answered a question with another question. Now, that tactic was used by Jesus plenty but the question was always resolved by the authority He possessed; it was never used as a deflection.

I will answer, in good faith that you will also reciprocate, one of your questions.

“How could a loving God allow his one and only Son to be tortured to death?”

Ans: I won’t pretend to know God’s mind but the Scriptures declare it must happen to The Christ AND it pleased the Father to do so.
Isaiah 52:13-53

your turn,
blessings