Annihilation=No Wrath

[Der Alte]

Scripture teaches a lake of fire. The question remains whether it is eternal conscience torment or a slow painful second death.
Blessings

According to Rev 20:10 it is "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Revelation 20:10.
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

 

[BurningBush84]

When people die their Souls go to sleep. During this sleep phase all souls will dream and some will have nightmares. The realm in which this dreaming takes place is called Hell, Gehenna, land of the dead, Sheol or Hades – they are all the same place. Even Abraham's bosom and Paradise are located in Hell. The difference between these places is their wavelengths. The lower the wavelength, the more severe the hell. Paradise is located in the highest realm. The wavelength one ends up in is appropriate for their spiritual condition. All people, including God's Sheep will experience some time in Hell. Its a final cleansing for the righteous and recompense for the wicked. The righteous may receive Mercy in Hell but the wicked will not. The righteous will wake up on Judgment day white as snow, without spot or blemish, cleansed and their naked souls covered with the Holy Spirit. The wicked, on the other hand, will face judgment day with filthy, naked souls. Their shame will be exposed to all. After being exposed, they will collectively jump in to the Lake of Fire (also called Hell) and be annihilated. The righteous enter into Eternal life.

That's one heck of an interpretation !

 

[Der Alte]

@Twin_niwT
I read your post. There is no scriptural support for what I have highlighted in red.

"When people die their Souls go to sleep. During this sleep phase all souls will dream and some will have nightmares. The realm in which this dreaming takes place is called Hell, Gehenna, land of the dead, Sheol or Hades – they are all the same place. Even Abraham's bosom and Paradise are located in Hell. The difference between these places is their wavelengths. The lower the wavelength, the more severe the hell. Paradise is located in the highest realm. The wavelength one ends up in is appropriate for their spiritual condition. All people, including God's Sheep will experience some time in Hell. Its a final cleansing for the righteous and recompense for the wicked. The righteous may receive Mercy in Hell but the wicked will not. The righteous will wake up on Judgment day white as snow, without spot or blemish, cleansed and their naked souls covered with the Holy Spirit. The wicked, on the other hand, will face judgment day with filthy, naked souls. Their shame will be exposed to all. After being exposed, they will collectively jump in to the Lake of Fire (also called Hell) and be annihilated. The righteous enter into Eternal life."​

 

[Der Alte]

@Twin_niwT
Note, this article says nothing about the valley of Ge Hinnom being a constantly burning trash dump.
Nature and Situation.

Gehenna according to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia​

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.). The mouth is narrow, impeding the smoke, but below Gehenna extends indefinitely (Men. 99b). According to one opinion, it is above the firmament, and according to another, behind the dark mountains (Ta'an. 32b). An Arabian pointed out to a scholar the spot in the wilderness where the earth swallowed the sons of Korah (Num. xvi. 31-32), who descended into Gehenna (Sanh. 110b). It is situated deep down in the earth, and is immeasurably large. "The earth is one-sixtieth of the garden, the garden one-sixtieth of Eden [paradise], Eden one-sixtieth of Gehenna; hence the whole world is like a lid for Gehenna. Some say that Gehenna can not be measured" (Pes. 94a). It is divided into seven compartments (Soṭah 10b); a similar view was held by the Babylonians (Jeremias, "Hölle und Paradies bei den Babyloniern," pp. 16 et seq., Leipsic, 1901; Guthe, "Kurzes Bibel-wörterb." p. 272, Tübingen and Leipsic, 1903).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (Ḥag. 13b). This is "the fire of the West, which every setting sun receives. I came to a fiery river, whose fire flows like water, and which empties into a large sea in the West" (Enoch, xvii. 4-6). Hell here is described exactly as in the Talmud. The Persians believed that glowing molten metal flowed under the feet of sinners (Schwally, "Das Leben nach dem Tode," p. 145, Giessen, 1892). The waters of the warm springs of Tiberias are heated while flowing past Gehenna (Shab. 39a). The fire of Gehenna never goes out (Tosef., Ber. 6, 7; Mark ix. 43 et seq.; Matt. xviii. 8, xxv. 41; comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176); there is always plenty of wood there (Men. 100a). This fire is sixty times as hot as any earthly fire (Ber. 57b). There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεῖς Ιστορίαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire. Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176)....​

Read more pages at link.​

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[BNR32FAN]

Many atheists don’t believe in an afterlife and yet still consider death to be a wrath.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"..... but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord." Romans 12:19

"........their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them". Deuteronomy 32:35

Annihilation seems very peaceful, the total opposite of experiencing wrath. Annihilation is basically resting in eternal peace, a peaceful soothing eternal sleep. Annihilation means the wicked unbelievers wont have to endure any punishment in the afterlife. Annihilation seems like more of a blessing than a curse. Annihilation seems more like Gods grace rather than his wrath. If your trying to convince people that Gods wrath is peaceful eternal sleep, then Gods wrath is a gracious peaceful reward for the wicked. Absolutely no eternal consequences for the wicked unbeliever. Eternal sleep is a gift, not a consequence, not a punishment. No reason to fear Gods wrath. If you don't go to Heaven it wont matter because you wont know what your missing, you wont feel regret, remorse or pain, you wont feel anything. Is that what the Bible really teaches ??

I don’t see how annihilation in a lake of fire seems to be peaceful.

 

[Omniskeptical]

Note, this article says nothing about the valley of Ge Hinnom being a constantly burning trash dump.

But it would be this, when the Romans set it ablaze. I agree Gehenna was an everlasting penalty.

 

[Der Alte]

But it would be this, when the Romans set it ablaze. I agree Gehenna was an everlasting penalty.

Interesting conclusion you jumped to. That the valley of Hinnom outside became synonymous will hell occurred about 800 yrs BC.
Gehenna from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. The entire article is about 4 pgs long this is part of the first paragraph. See link below for complete article.

Nature and Situation.
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there.​

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

 

[Omniskeptical]

Interesting conclusion you jumped to. That the valley of Hinnom outside became synonymous will hell occurred about 800 yrs BC.
Gehenna from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia. The entire article is about 4 pgs long this is part of the first paragraph. See link below for complete article.

Nature and Situation.​

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Soṭah 22a); according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day. Yet opinions on this point vary. According to some sources, it was created on the second day; according to others, even before the world, only its fire being created on the second day (Gen. R. iv., end; Pes. 54a). The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. ​

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.

jewishencyclopedia.com

And what is this supposed to prove? Hell is a place on Earth, and Hades is not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

When we quote Luke 16:19-31, you guys just say, "well...... That's just a parable". As if Jesus only spoke parables when he was drunk off his you know what .

Well, not all of us who believe the Lake of Fire is a place of eventual destruction or annihilation believe Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. I believe Luke 16:19-31 is a very real story about Hades (hell) in the heart of the Earth in the spiritual realm. This is called "Dualistic Conditional Immortality." I believe the rich man truly experiences torment by the flame.

However, death and hell (Hades) are cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). The Lake of Fire is called the Second Death (Revelation 21:8). This Second Death is related to the first death (Which is the body dying). 1 Corinthians 15:26 says that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Death is cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14), which is called the Second Death (Revelation 21:8). I believe death is most likely the devil, according to Hebrews 2:14. For it says, "that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" (Hebrews 2:14). So the devil (death) is the last enemy to be destroyed. So if there is a last enemy to be destroyed, according to 1 Corinthians 15:26, it makes sense that other enemies of God will be destroyed beforehand. Jesus said fear not the one who can kill the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and SOUL in Gehenna (i.e., the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28). The KJB says "hell," but hell sometimes can be a loose term to refer to different parts of the place of hell. I believe Hades (hell) is an island, and the Lake of Fire sits below it (sort of like water). Scripture describes hell as an island. When the time comes, the Lake of Fire will be cast down into it (along with the devil).

Think. Jesus did not suffer an eternity in hell for our punishment. Jesus suffered greatly for hours, and He died in our place once as "the punishment."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why do we need to be saved ???? Saved from what ???? Saved from eternal sleep ?????? Is that what Jesus saved mankind from ? Eternal sleep??? LOL Eternal sleep is a reward . Eternal sleep means i got the best of God LOL. Eternal sleep for the wicked means God is a Cuckold

No. The wicked will be punished in hell and most likely even further for their sins in the Lake of Fire. But the punishment will be no more and no less than what they deserve. Luke 12:47-48 describes the fair justice of God.

Also, I heard ECT Christians tell me that the reason why the wicked are being punished for all eternity is because they are sinning against God eternally. But that makes no sense. They do not have a time machine to sin against God. There is also NO verse in Scripture that even suggests this, either. So it is completely made up to defend ECT. Also, only five major verses sound like ECT at first glance, but they can be easily explained with Scripture. The goodness of God is on trial here. But many just fail the test. They can never explain using a real-world example of how it is good and fair for God to torture wicked people for all eternity with flames for a finite amount of crimes committed here on this Earth.

I mean, stop and think. Do you think the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was just?
They were destroyed by fire from Heaven.
Did God keep them alive and torture them in those flames until this very day for all to see as an example?
No. The example of Sodom and Gomorrah was destruction.

Jude 1:7
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

An example is something you can witness and see, right?
You do realize you can visit this place and see its destruction today.
Many Christians have visited the site of Sodom and Gomorrah.
They witnessed the destruction of these two cities.
That is the example written about in Jude 1:7.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bottom line is I believe Jesus is the greatest form of Savior. You don't. You believe Jesus saved mankind from annihilation.

I believe Jesus ultimately saved mankind from eternal torment. My Savior is greater than your savior.

Imagine a person coming up with an even more horrible form of punishment than ECT.
They could say to you that their Savior is greater than your Savior because they believe ECT waters down the true punishment of God. But just because they say such a thing does not make it true. So then, what is the truth? Well, it's not in making clever statements, my friend. Ultimately, Scripture and morality must be our guide on this matter.

 

[BurningBush84]

No. The wicked will be punished in hell and most likely even further for their sins in the Lake of Fire. But the punishment will be no more and no less than what they deserve. Luke 12:47-48 describes the fair justice of God.

Also, I heard ECT Christians tell me that the reason why the wicked are being punished for all eternity is because they are sinning against God eternally. But that makes no sense. They do not have a time machine to sin against God. There is also NO verse in Scripture that even suggests this, either. So it is completely made up to defend ECT. Also, only five major verses sound like ECT at first glance, but they can be easily explained with Scripture. The goodness of God is on trial here. But many just fail the test. They can never explain using a real-world example of how it is good and fair for God to torture wicked people for all eternity with flames for a finite amount of crimes committed here on this Earth.

I mean, stop and think. Do you think the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was just?
They were destroyed by fire from Heaven.
Did God keep them alive and torture them in those flames until this very day for all to see as an example?
No. The example of Sodom and Gomorrah was destruction.

Jude 1:7
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

An example is something you can witness and see, right?
You do realize you can visit this place and see its destruction today.
Many Christians have visited the site of Sodom and Gomorrah.
They witnessed the destruction of these two cities.
That is the example written about in Jude 1:7.

Buildings cannot commit sexual immorality. Jude 1:7 is talking about the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Their souls are in Hades suffering torment. On the last day after their souls get reunited with their body, they will be transferred to the Lake of Fire. If annihilation were true then Hitler got the best of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Buildings cannot commit sexual immorality.

Uh, I did not say that the buildings committed sexual immorality.
Who even believes that?
I obviously was referring to the fact that the burned-up cities, ALONG WITH THE PEOPLE being turned into ashes, is the example we are given of the Judgment God brought upon Sodom and Gomorrah by fire from Heaven.
The example was not that the wicked in that city is still alive for us to see today with them screaming, but the example is that these people were turned into ashes by the fire.
Granted, they are in Hades or Hell, but the point is that an example is something you see.
"The example" was the destruction of these wicked people in Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jude 1:7 is talking about the people of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I never said otherwise.
But sometimes in the Bible, it refers to a city as a people.

Ezekiel 16:56
“For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,”

Again, this is not to say that the people are literal buildings or anything silly.
It just means that a city can refer to a people group.

Their souls are in Hades suffering torment.

Right, I do not deny there is a literal Hell or Hades where the wicked suffer.
I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality and not Traditional Conditional Immortality.

On the last day after their souls get reunited with their body, they will be transferred to the Lake of Fire. If annihilation were true then Hitler got the best of God.

Again, God will punish everyone according to their crimes that they committed so nobody will get away with anything. I am not of the view that the wicked will just perish in the Lake of Fire without any kind of punishment prior in Hell or Hades or in the Lake of Fire itself. But the punishment must fit the crimes. Even Hitler committed a finite amount of crimes and Hitler did not commit crimes on an eternal level. Punishing a people for a finite amount of crimes for all eternity goes beyond what the crimes call for. It’s not fair justice. So the nice little ole lady who loved her neighbors but did not accept Jesus as her Savior will be tormented for all eternity according to you.

Let me give you an example: Lets say there was a family that visited another country. In this country, one of their kids had stolen something and they dictator of that country decided to have that child tortured in a great way even until they were old and grey. Imagine, is that fair punishment? What if this child was your own? Do they deserve to be punished in that way for their finite one-time sin? According to you: They should be eternally tormented. We are not talking billions or even trillions of years for a one-time sin here. We are talking about for all eternity. Even a lifetime of extreme torture for a child committing a one-time sin would be monstrous even by most people today (Who are not even believers). This is where you must throw out all logic of what you know to be good and right in favor of what you think is written on the page. One must read the Bible without the heart involved when they believe in ECT. They never truly contemplated the horrors and or injustice of ECT. They see it as written and there you go. But axe murders can do the same. They can quote the Bible as they are about to kill their victims in the name of God. So again, we have to have a moral standard that is consistent when we read the Bible.

 

[BurningBush84]

Uh, I did not say that the buildings committed sexual immorality.
Who even believes that?
I obviously was referring to the fact that the burned up cities ALONG WITH THE PEOPLE being turned into ashes is the example we are given of the Judgment God brought upon Sodom and Gomorrah by fire from Heaven.
The example was not that the wicked in that city are still alive for us to see today with them screaming but the example is that these people were turned into ashes by the fire.


I never said otherwise.
But sometimes in the Bible it refers to a city as a people.

Ezekiel 16:56
“For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,”

Again, this is not to say that the people are literal buildings or anything silly.
It just means that a city can refer to a people group.


Right, I do not deny there is a literal Hell or Hades where the wicked suffer.
I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality and not Traditional Conditional Immortality.


Again, God will punish everyone according to their crimes that they committed so nobody will get away with anything. I am not of the view that the wicked will just perish in the Lake of Fire without any kind of punishment prior in Hell or Hades or in the Lake of Fire itself. But the punishment must fit the crimes. Even Hitler committed a finite amount of crimes and Hitler did not commit crimes on an eternal level. Punishing a people for a finite amount of crimes for all eternity goes beyond what the crimes call for. It’s not fair justice. So the nice little ole lady who loved her neighbors but did not accept Jesus as her Savior will be tormented for all eternity according to you.

Let me give you an example: Lets say there was a family that visited another country. In this country, one of their kids had stolen something and they dictator of that country decided to have that child tortured in a great way even until they were old and grey. Imagine, is that fair punishment? What if this child was your own? Do they deserve to be punished in that way for their finite one-time sin? According to you: They should be eternally tormented. We are not talking billions or even trillions of years for a one-time sin here. We are talking about for all eternity. Even a lifetime of extreme torture for a child committing a one-time sin would be monstrous even by most people today (Who are not even believers). This is where you must throw out all logic of what you know to be good and right in favor of what you think is written on the page. One must read the Bible without the heart involved when they believe in ECT. They never truly contemplated the horrors and or injustice of ECT. They see it as written and there you go. But axe murders can do the same. They can quote the Bible as they are about to kill their victims in the name of God. So again, we have to have a moral standard that is consistent when we read t

Uh, I did not say that the buildings committed sexual immorality.
Who even believes that?
I obviously was referring to the fact that the burned-up cities, ALONG WITH THE PEOPLE being turned into ashes, is the example we are given of the Judgment God brought upon Sodom and Gomorrah by fire from Heaven.
The example was not that the wicked in that city is still alive for us to see today with them screaming, but the example is that these people were turned into ashes by the fire.
Granted, they are in Hades or Hell, but the point is that an example is something you see.
"The example" was the destruction of these wicked people in Sodom and Gomorrah.


I never said otherwise.
But sometimes in the Bible, it refers to a city as a people.

Ezekiel 16:56
“For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,”

Again, this is not to say that the people are literal buildings or anything silly.
It just means that a city can refer to a people group.


Right, I do not deny there is a literal Hell or Hades where the wicked suffer.
I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality and not Traditional Conditional Immortality.


Again, God will punish everyone according to their crimes that they committed so nobody will get away with anything. I am not of the view that the wicked will just perish in the Lake of Fire without any kind of punishment prior in Hell or Hades or in the Lake of Fire itself. But the punishment must fit the crimes. Even Hitler committed a finite amount of crimes and Hitler did not commit crimes on an eternal level. Punishing a people for a finite amount of crimes for all eternity goes beyond what the crimes call for. It’s not fair justice. So the nice little ole lady who loved her neighbors but did not accept Jesus as her Savior will be tormented for all eternity according to you.

Let me give you an example: Lets say there was a family that visited another country. In this country, one of their kids had stolen something and they dictator of that country decided to have that child tortured in a great way even until they were old and grey. Imagine, is that fair punishment? What if this child was your own? Do they deserve to be punished in that way for their finite one-time sin? According to you: They should be eternally tormented. We are not talking billions or even trillions of years for a one-time sin here. We are talking about for all eternity. Even a lifetime of extreme torture for a child committing a one-time sin would be monstrous even by most people today (Who are not even believers). This is where you must throw out all logic of what you know to be good and right in favor of what you think is written on the page. One must read the Bible without the heart involved when they believe in ECT. They never truly contemplated the horrors and or injustice of ECT. They see it as written and there you go. But axe murders can do the same. They can quote the Bible as they are about to kill their victims in the name of God. So again, we have to have a moral standard that is consistent when we read the Bible.

You use a lot of human reasoning. But humans are sinful beings. God is eternal and holy. Remember what he said in Isaiah 55:8-9 ?

Jesus REMEMBERS being punished/crucified/tortured. The Annihilated remember nothing. What's the point of punishment if you never remember it ?

​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You use a lot of human reasoning.

God does want us to use our human brains to reason together with Him.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18).

But humans are sinful beings.

Believers or Christians are not to remain as being sinful or justify the idea that they can sin and still be saved because of a belief alone in Jesus. If they do, they will be cast out of Christ's Kingdom (See: John 8:34-35 and compare with Matthew 13:41-42). Jude 1:4 even warns against those types of believers who turn God's grace into lasciviousness (i.e., a license to sin or immorality).

Remember, Paul said, "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,"

James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Unfortunately, most Christians are not going to make it into the Kingdom.
Jesus said narrow is the way, and few be there that find it.

God is eternal and holy. Remember what he said in Isaiah 55:8-9 ?

Isaiah 55:8-9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

This is in context to the wicked who have not forsaken their ways or the unrighteous man his thoughts.

Isaiah 55:7
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

So it's not talking about those who are living righteously and know the meat of the Word (Which is to discern between good and evil - See: Hebrews 5:14).

Jesus REMEMBERS being punished/crucified/tortured.

But Jesus did not carry out our punishment of being eternally tormented in the flames. If He was to take our punishment in our place fully, then that is what He must experience for us. But we know that is simply not what happened. Jesus' punishment in our place only lasted several hours, and He died on the cross.

The Annihilated remember nothing. What's the point of punishment if you never remember it ?

What's the point of punishment if it is overkill and goes beyond what the crime calls for?
Again, do you see that there is such a thing as unfair justice or punishment?
Meaning, what if a child was beaten to a bloody pulp every day for just lying once?
What if this punishment lasted his whole life until he was old?
Is that not overkill or unfair punishment or justice?
Now, what if they were in flames for all eternity? This is even more monstrous beyond all imagining.
But of course you are just reading the letter on the page without the heart involved.

 

[BurningBush84]

God does want us to use our human brains to reason together with Him.

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18).


Believers or Christians are not to remain as being sinful or justify the idea that they can sin and still be saved because of a belief alone in Jesus. If they do, they will be cast out of Christ's Kingdom (See: John 8:34-35 and compare with Matthew 13:41-42). Jude 1:4 even warns against those types of believers who turn God's grace into lasciviousness (i.e., a license to sin or immorality).

Remember, Paul said, "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,"

James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Unfortunately, most Christians are not going to make it into the Kingdom.
Jesus said narrow is the way, and few be there that find it.


Isaiah 55:8-9
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

This is in context to the wicked who have not forsaken their ways or the unrighteous man his thoughts.

Isaiah 55:7
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

So it's not talking about those who are living righteously and know the meat of the Word (Which is to discern between good and evil - See: Hebrews 5:14).


But Jesus did not carry out our punishment of being eternally tormented in the flames. If He was to take our punishment in our place fully, then that is what He must experience for us. But we know that is simply not what happened. Jesus' punishment in our place only lasted several hours, and He died on the cross.


What's the point of punishment if it is overkill and goes beyond what the crime calls for?
Again, do you see that there is such a thing as unfair justice or punishment?
Meaning, what if a child was beaten to a bloody pulp every day for just lying once?
What if this punishment lasted his whole life until he was old?
Is that not overkill or unfair punishment or justice?
Now, what if they were in flames for all eternity? This is even more monstrous beyond all imagining.
But of course you are just reading the letter on the page without the heart involved.

You can believe whatever you want . But God warns about eternal fire so often . Why use that terminology and confuse so many ? Just say the word fire without using the word eternal. But the Bible does say eternal. Matthew 18:8. Matthew 25:46.

"And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”. Rev 14:11

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You can believe whatever you want . But God warns about eternal fire so often . Why use that terminology and confuse so many ?

Well, there are many sayings in the Bible that confuse your average reader.
It's a spiritual book that needs to be rightly divided and spiritually discerned.

For example: Many Christians today misunderstand the word: "repent."

CF - My Biblical Case for Repentance

Repent can have a wide variety of meanings and it has been used in different ways in the Bible.
In other words, it is a homonym and yet some believers do not realize this fact.

There are also metaphors that many Christians get mixed up at times, too.

This one example:

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent. Introduction: The Bible has metaphors (or similitudes) within it. For Hosea 12:10 says, "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." To not understand...

www.christianforums.com

Just say the word fire without using the word eternal.

I believe why most hold to Eternal Torment is because they do not understand that the word "forever" (and some of its related synonyms) does not always mean "for all eternity" in the Bible. Sure, sometimes the word “forever” can mean “for all eternity,” but not always. Why do I say that?​

​

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you.​

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In other words, the word "forever" (and its related words) does not always mean ”for all eternity” in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific temporal thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) does not mean “for all eternity?”​

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• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to the descendants of Israel “forever.” However, the Earth (Where Canaan resides) will pass away (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1).​

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• Isaiah 34:9-10 mentions a city in the region of Idumea (of the people of Edom) and how its burning pitch will not be quenched night or day, and the smoke of that city will go up forever. However, again, the Earth (Where Idumea resides) will pass away (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1). Note: Please pay special attention to this passage. It also mentions “night, “day” and “for ever and ever” just like Revelation 20:10.​

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• The Israelites and their sons were to keep the Passover “forever” (Exodus 12:24).​

The Passover is a part of the laws of Moses. But Christians today are not under the Laws of Moses (Romans 6:14) (Acts 13:39) (Acts 15:1-24).​

​

• Exodus 27:21 says Aaron and his sons must keep the lamps burning as a statute (law) forever unto their generations (descendants). Exodus 28:43 says that Aaron and his sons must wear certain pieces of clothing when they enter the Tabernacle. This was to be a statute (law) unto Aaron and his sons forever. The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15). However, the Aaronic priesthood was temporary, and it was replaced by the priesthood order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:11-19).​

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• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).​

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• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they “were scattered” (Habakkuk 3:6).​

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• God was to dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:12-13, 1 Kings 8:27), until -- the Temple was destroyed (2 Kings 25:8-17).​

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• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9) and they are not to let others judge them if they don’t keep the Sabbath days (Colossians 2:14-17).​

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• The fire for Israel's burnt offering (animal sacrifice) is never to be put out (Leviticus 6:12-13), and yet -- Christ offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, and sat down on the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12).​

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• Jonah describes how the earth with her bars was about him forever when he was in the fish (Jonah 2:6), until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 1:17).​

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• The forts and towers shall be for dens (animal habitations) for ever, until -- the Spirit is poured out (Isaiah 32:13-16).​

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• The King James Bible, as well as many other translations, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6). This obviously would be only until his death.​

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• Numbers 15:15 says that the animal sacrifices will be forever, but we clearly know this is not the case because Jesus has become our Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7) (1 Peter 1:19).​

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• In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus was going to return back to him (his master) forever. Obviously Onesimus is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.​

​

So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). For example: A husband can say to his wife that he will be with her forever. But of course, this talking in context of "forever" as being here upon this Earth. In many cases, words such as "everlasting" or "forever" can be in context to a particular thing that is temporal within the Bible.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
(I also adjusted some of his points on his list, as well).
Apttpteach

But the Bible does say eternal. Matthew 18:8.

Matthew 18:8
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they “were scattered” (Habakkuk 3:6) (KJB).
Other translations say shattered, etcetera.

Matthew 25:46.

Explaining Matthew 25:46:

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:46).

What does “eternal judgment” mean in Hebrews 6:2? It’s pretty simple; God judges, and the result is everlasting. Few traditionalists (i.e. Eternal Torment proponents), if any, argue that this verse teaches that God is continually judging for eternity, banging his gavel and repeatedly declaring saved or unsaved the same finite number of existent people. But wait a minute; it doesn’t say “the eternal results of judgment.” It says “eternal judgment.” Following the reasoning applied to Matthew 25:46, this verse must teach that God is continually in the act of judging! In other words, the consequences of the punishment are everlasting, and not the act of punishing that is ongoing. In fact, if we compare Scripture with Scripture, we discover exactly what this“everlasting punishment” actually is.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9. It says, “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;” (KJV).

So the wicked will be destroyed. Their everlasting punishment is…. everlasting destruction! Destruction means it is not around anymore. Something that is destroyed is no more. If I tell you I will destroy a piece of paper, I will either shred it, or burn it, etc.; It will be no more from what it used to be. It will cease to function in the manner that it was. It was destroyed. So Matthew 25:46 is referring to an everlasting punishment. This punishment has everlasting consequences and it is everlasting destruction (i.e. something that will be no more). Just as there is an “eternal judgment” mentioned in Scripture. A one time judgment with eternal consequences, and not a court like judgment that will stretch out into eternity for all time. Therefore, there will also be an “everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46), or a punishment that has everlasting consequences by an “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9). It will be a destruction or ruin, or end of the wicked that has everlasting consequences.

Now, some try to say that comparing “everlasting life with everlasting punishment” is proof of Eternal Torment.

However, if we were to look more closely at Matthew 25:46:

Everlasting is the parallel (which speaks of the eternal consequences).

Both life and death (destruction, i.e. the punishment) have eternal consequences or effects.

But life and death (punishment) is the contrast.

So the verse is one part parallel and one part contrast.

As I already pointed out, the "everlasting punishment" is said to be "everlasting destruction" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, which is death.

So the contrast is life (reward) and death (punishment).

And everlasting is the parallel.

Anyways, if ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) was true, the verse would say,

"And these shall go away into everlasting life to be tortured in flames: but the righteous into life eternal to be in peaceful bliss." (Matthew 25:46 ECT Influenced Translation).

But the verse doesn't really say that, though; So Matthew 25:46 is not a solid case in proving Eternal Torment. At first glance, a person may get this impression when reading it, but we know that many verses in Scripture can be easily misunderstood with a quick reading (if we are not careful to compare Scripture with Scripture).


Sources used in this post:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do; I am merely posting the source links to show that I quoted them at certain times for the point of my article):
Daniel 12:2 Does Not Teach Eternal Torment | Rethinking Hell
Matthew 25:46 Does Not Prove Eternal Torment – Part 1 | Rethinking Hell

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”. Rev 14:11

Explaining Revelation 14:11:

10 “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
First, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Are we to assume that the city of Edom will burn for all eternity? Mystery Babylon will also have her smoke go up for ever and ever (Revelation 19:3). Are we to assume that the city of Mystery Babylon will be on fire and give smoke for all eternity? Jesus says Heaven and earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35), and Revelation 21:1 says, “for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; “. So it’s not possible for these cities that are on our current Earth to keep putting off smoke for all eternity (if the Earth will pass away).

Second, I believe the words “and they have no rest day nor night” is switching back to the point in time within the Tribulation. In other words, verse 11 is saying that those who worship the beast will be destroyed like Edom was destroyed (using the Metaphor in Isaiah 34:10), and they will have no rest day or night while they are worshiping the beast within the time of the Great Tribulation. So Revelation 14:11 is not teaching Eternal Torment (Although somebody can easily conclude such an idea with a surface reading).

What am I talking about?

Well, here is my commentary on Revelation 14:9-11:

Revelation 14:9-11
9 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [Present tense time during the Tribulation period]
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever [Verse 10, and the beginning part here of verse 11 is a warning by the angel describing the future punishment of those who worship the beast. This temporary one-time punishment takes place after the judgment that is a singular event whereby they will eventually be destroyed] [Important Side Note: The “smoke of their torment going up forever” is the same as the cities of Idumea, and Mystery Babylon; They will not last “for all eternity” because the Earth will pass away as Jesus said]:

Revelation 14:11 (continued):

“…and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [Present time during the Tribulation period which describes the earthly living state of those who worship the beast]”

Important Note:

The words in blue and red above in brackets is my commentary to the text.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do; I am merely posting the source links to show that I quoted them at certain times for the point of my article):
Where the Worm That Never Dies — Mark 9:48 - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality

 

[Der Alte]

Explaining Revelation 14:11:
10 “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
First, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Are we to assume that the city of Edom will burn for all eternity? Mystery Babylon will also have her smoke go up for ever and ever (Revelation 19:3). Are we to assume that the city of Mystery Babylon will be on fire and give smoke for all eternity? Jesus says Heaven and earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35), and Revelation 21:1 says, “for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; “. So it’s not possible for these cities that are on our current Earth to keep putting off smoke for all eternity (if the Earth will pass away).

Second, I believe the words “and they have no rest day nor night” is switching back to the point in time within the Tribulation. In other words, verse 11 is saying that those who worship the beast will be destroyed like Edom was destroyed (using the Metaphor in Isaiah 34:10), and they will have no rest day or night while they are worshiping the beast within the time of the Great Tribulation. So Revelation 14:11 is not teaching Eternal Torment (Although somebody can easily conclude such an idea with a surface reading).
What am I talking about?
Well, here is my commentary on Revelation 14:9-11:
Revelation 14:9-11
9 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [Present tense time during the Tribulation period]
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever [Verse 10, and the beginning part here of verse 11 is a warning by the angel describing the future punishment of those who worship the beast. This temporary one-time punishment takes place after the judgment that is a singular event whereby they will eventually be destroyed] [Important Side Note: The “smoke of their torment going up forever” is the same as the cities of Idumea, and Mystery Babylon; They will not last “for all eternity” because the Earth will pass away as Jesus said]:
Revelation 14:11 (continued):
“…and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [Present time during the Tribulation period which describes the earthly living state of those who worship the beast]”
Important Note:
The words in blue and red above in brackets is my commentary to the text.
Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do; I am merely posting the source links to show that I quoted them at certain times for the point of my article):
Where the Worm That Never Dies — Mark 9:48 - Afterlife | Conditional Immortality

The problem with the conclusions in this post is that the seven churches in Asia, to whom Revelation was addressed, almost assuredly did not have personal copies of the OT which they could pull out and compare with any allusions to in Rev. We are spoiled, I have 6-7 Bibles on my phone which is about as big as a checkbook and I can almost instantly look up any vs. They did not have that luxury unless the speaker specifically stated that a particular OT book said a certain thing they would have understood it on face value.