Annihilation=No Wrath

[ozso]

" Moses and the Prophets" mean the Scriptures.

That's what I said in my post. How could you have missed that?

 

[Der Alte]

Umm, which part of that story being a parable, do you not understand?

PMFBI but Lazarus and the rich man is NOT a parable.
Luk 16:19-31 might be some other figure of speech, but it is not a parable. Luke 16:19-31 is not in the proper format of a parable. The word "parable" is derived from the Greek word “parabolos” which means to “throw or lay beside.” A parable is used to explain something unknown/not understood by comparing it to something known/understood. For example,

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:​

There is no "’this’ is like unto to ‘that’" in Luke 16:19-31
This story is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The word "parable" occurs 32 times in the NT. Jesus identifies parables 5 times.
Matthew 13:18, Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Matthew 4:13, Matthew 13:28.
17 times the writer identifies the parables.
…..All of the unquestioned parables are anonymous; a certain widow, a certain man, a certain landowner etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man mentions three specific actual persons by name; Lazarus, Abraham and Moses.
If Abraham was not in the place Jesus named and did not speak the words Jesus quoted then Jesus lied. Would Jesus use a false statement to make a point?
What most folks don’t know about the rich man, he violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8​

7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:​

8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.​

All of the ECF who quoted Luk 16:19-31 considered it to be factual.
1) Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.,
2) Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1,
3) Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.],
4) The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics ,
5) Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312), -

 

[BurningBush84]

Bottom line is Jesus made t

That's what I said in my post. How could you have missed that?

And Luke 16:19-31 is the Scriptures also. Isaiah 66:24 and Daniel 12:2 are a good enough warning. Why does Luke 16 have to be some complex code to decipher ? Why cant it just mean what it plainly says ? Use scripture to interpret scripture . The Rich Man and the beggar died and their souls received a private judgement . That's exactly what Hebrews 9:27 says happens. The Rich Mans soul is suffering eternal destruction . And when he gets transferred to the Lake of Fire , his soul and body will suffer eternal destruction.

Which is a greater form of Savior ? One who saves mankind from annihilation ? Or one who saves mankind from eternal torment ???

 

[Water and Fire]

As if Jesus only told parables when he was drunk. The meaning of that parable is so simple . Verse 31 sums it all up. And it's talking about Annihilationists. You are they.

‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:31

Well Jesus rose from the dead and he warned people about Hell many times. He even gave mankind Luke 16:19-31 . Yet people still are not convinced Hell exists.

Verse 31 is talking about people who deny Hell , who deny a place of eternal torment/ eternal punishment. Your proving Jesus words to be true . Verse 31 is talking about you.

The meaning of the parable is so simple? That kind of flies in the face of why Christ says he speaks in parables...


Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


I just love when those who claim to be for Christ, blatantly contradict what he says.

 

[BurningBush84]

The meaning of the parable is so simple? That kind of flies in the face of why Christ says he speaks in parables...


Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


I just love when those who claim to be for Christ, blatantly contradict what he says.

The meaning of the parable is so simple? That kind of flies in the face of why Christ says he speaks in parables...


Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


I just love when those who claim to be for Christ, blatantly contradict what he says.

A child should be able to understand Luke 16.
"unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.".

By claiming Hell doesn't exist your calling Jesus a liar .

 

[Jipsah]

Alot of people convert to Christianity because they don't wanna risk suffering in Hell forever. If your trying to convince people that Hell doesn't exist then your doing Satan a favor.

OTOH, a lot of people reject Christianity because they believe that a God who'd subject anyone to eternal torture is a merciless, inplacable monster. Add to that the idea that eternal torture is described as the fate of the vast majority of people who've ever lived, and to most people you've just described a sadistic fiend. Presenting God in that light is really doing Satan a favor.

Satan wants people to believe that there are no eternal consequences for rejecting Jesus.

Being annihilatedis about as eternal asyou can get. Not only are you not alive, you never lived. God never heard of you; you're eradicated from time and space. Your crimes die with you, and not even a fleeting memory will be left.

What benefit to keeping sinners alive? So we can remember their sins? So we can take pleasure in someone else's agony? So God can take pleasure in someone;s agony? Would you really like there to be a torture chamber adjoining Heaven? Will we have grown so callous that we find the tortures of the damned to be entertaining?

Another objection as well. Scripture says that the wages of sin is death, and contrasts that with the gift of God, which is eternal life. But if the damned are alive to be tormented in hell for all eternity then they have to be alive, don't they? Not much of a gift for them, is it? and they're eternally there, sins and all, to remind us of the grisly fate that has befallen most of humanity, showing us that while God's mercy is great, God's malice is even greater.

Yeah, yeah, I know, "death" didn't really mean "death", it means a really horrible eternal life. Yet another one of those ever so handy "what that really means is..." deals that make our cherished doctrines work.

You might as well do whatever you want because the worst thing that could happen is you sleeping forever.

You wouldn't be sleeping forever, you simply wouldn't exist, or ever have existed. Both you and your sins will cease to contaminate God's perfect creation. No one will get teary eyed from some memory of you, because you'll never have existed at all. God says 'I never knew you", and that's you're gone.

And you won't know what your missing because you won't exist anymore. God's wrath is eternal sleep ???? Wow.

Maybe God's just not as keen on torturing folks as some people are.

 

[Jipsah]

Can I be happy in heaven knowing that I may have loved ones who are suffering in agony for all eternity or would I be more at peace if I knew their suffering was over and they are at rest?

You probably wouldn't do either. All memory of those who didn't make it would be gone. "I never knew you."

 

[Jipsah]

By claiming Hell doesn't exist your calling Jesus a liar .

That's always an obnoxious and stupid charge. Anyway, hell is the place where God destroys both body and soul.

 

[BurningBush84]

OTOH, a lot of people reject Christianity because they believe that a God who'd subject anyone to eternal torture is a merciless, inplacable monster. Add to that the idea that eternal torture is described as the fate of the vast majority of people who've ever lived, and to most people you've just described a sadistic fiend. Presenting God in that light is really doing Satan a favor.


Being annihilatedis about as eternal asyou can get. Not only are you not alive, you never lived. God never heard of you; you're eradicated from time and space. Your crimes die with you, and not even a fleeting memory will be left.

What benefit to keeping sinners alive? So we can remember their sins? So we can take pleasure in someone else's agony? So God can take pleasure in someone;s agony? Would you really like there to be a torture chamber adjoining Heaven? Will we have grown so callous that we find the tortures of the damned to be entertaining?

Another objection as well. Scripture says that the wages of sin is death, and contrasts that with the gift of God, which is eternal life. But if the damned are alive to be tormented in hell for all eternity then they have to be alive, don't they? Not much of a gift for them, is it? and they're eternally there, sins and all, to remind us of the grisly fate that has befallen most of humanity, showing us that while God's mercy is great, God's malice is even greater.

Yeah, yeah, I know, "death" didn't really mean "death", it means a really horrible eternal life. Yet another one of those ever so handy "what that really means is..." deals that make our cherished doctrines work.

You wouldn't be sleeping forever, you simply wouldn't exist, or ever have existed. Both you and your sins will cease to contaminate God's perfect creation. No one will get teary eyed from some memory of you, because you'll never have existed at all. God says 'I never knew you", and that's you're gone.

Maybe God's just not as keen on torturing folks as some people are.

So mans wrath is greater than God's wrath ?

Doing hard time in prison is way worse than a quick death followed by annihilation.

Who is a greater Savior ? One who saved mankind from annihilation? Or one who saved mankind from eternal torment ?

 

[BurningBush84]

That's always an obnoxious and stupid charge. Anyway, hell is the place where God destroys both body and soul.

Yes destroy not annihilate . Some towns in the south were recently destroyed by tornadoes. But those towns still exist .

 

[Water and Fire]

Yes destroy not annihilate . Some towns in the south were recently destroyed by tornadoes. But those towns still exist .

Speaking of towns being destroyed... I'd like to hear your take on these passages.


Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[BurningBush84]

Speaking of towns being destroyed... I'd like to hear your take on these passages.


Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Ezekiel 16 = The Lord's mercy can lift even the lowest sinner from degradation and restore that sinner to communion with him. He promised to do that here. He would lead Jerusalem and Judah to recognize that her sins were much worse than those of Sodom (representing people without God's written law) and Samaria (representing people who fall away from the Lord). He would lead them all to repent.

When things had been going well for her, Israel didn't even want to be reminded of what had happened to Sodom. But it would have been a good reminder for her of how the Lord deals with impenitent unbelievers. She had despised Sodom because of what happened to her. Now Jerusalem and Judah would be destroyed and despised by all the neighbors.

Let us apply this to ourselves, lest we in pride look down on others. We daily need God's grace...

And Jude 1:7 is talking about the PEOPLE of Sodom and Gomorrah. Their souls are currently in Hades suffering. The Rich Man of Luke 16 went to the same place. On the Last Day God will reunite body with soul , and they will be transferred to the Lake of Fire. Where they.will have to endure eternal punishment/eternal torment.

 

[Jipsah]

Yes destroy not annihilate .

A distinction without a difference.

Some towns in the south were recently destroyed by tornadoes. But those towns still exist .

Rolling Fork probably won't. It was actually desroyed.

 

[Jipsah]

So mans wrath is greater than God's wrath ?

Huh?

Doing hard time in prison is way worse than a quick death followed by annihilation.

So capital punishment is worse than doing time. Hmmmm...

Who is a greater Savior ? One who saved mankind from annihilation? Or one who saved mankind from eternal torment ?

How many Saviors do you have?

 

[Water and Fire]

Ezekiel 16 = The Lord's mercy can lift even the lowest sinner from degradation and restore that sinner to communion with him. He promised to do that here. He would lead Jerusalem and Judah to recognize that her sins were much worse than those of Sodom (representing people without God's written law) and Samaria (representing people who fall away from the Lord). He would lead them all to repent.

When things had been going well for her, Israel didn't even want to be reminded of what had happened to Sodom. But it would have been a good reminder for her of how the Lord deals with impenitent unbelievers. She had despised Sodom because of what happened to her. Now Jerusalem and Judah would be destroyed and despised by all the neighbors.

Let us apply this to ourselves, lest we in pride look down on others. We daily need God's grace...

And Jude 1:7 is talking about the PEOPLE of Sodom and Gomorrah. Their souls are currently in Hades suffering. The Rich Man of Luke 16 went to the same place. On the Last Day God will reunite body with soul , and they will be transferred to the Lake of Fire. Where they.will have to endure eternal punishment/eternal torment.

No sorry, that is extremely unsatisfactory. It literally says that Sodom will be restored to her former estate, even though it was restored. Nothing you said explains that. The second verse says that Sodom suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. Please reconcile these two verses.

 

[BurningBush84]

Huh?

So capital punishment is worse than doing time. Hmmmm...


How many Saviors do you have?

What did Jesus save us from ???? Eternal sleep aka Resting In Peace ???

 

[BurningBush84]

No sorry, that is extremely unsatisfactory. It literally says that Sodom will be restored to her former estate, even though it was restored. Nothing you said explains that. The second verse says that Sodom suffered the vengeance of eternal fire. Please reconcile these two verses.

An eternal fire has no purpose for those who do not exist . A person who does not exist cannot be punished. My suggestion would be to Read Luke 16:19-31 out loud to yourself. Read Matthew 18:8-9 out loud to yourself. Matthew 25:41,46 out loud to yourself. Revelation 14:11 out loud to yourself. Revelation 20:10 out loud to yourself.

These are some of the passages that prove to me that Hell is a place of eternal punishment/torment . If you dont agree, then i guess will have to agree to disagree. I believe Jesus saves mankind from eternal torment not eternal rest.

 

[Water and Fire]

What did Jesus save us from ???? Eternal sleep aka Resting In Peace ???

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

 

[BurningBush84]

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

And why do we need to be saved from our sins ? What happens to the unsaved ???? Nothing. They don't exist. People who don't exist cannot feel anything. What good is a punishment that you cant feel ????

Gods wrath is not nothing. Jesus saved mankind from eternal torment/punishment . Which is a greater Savior? One who saves mankind from eternal sleep/annihilation ???? Or one who saves mankind from eternal torment/punishment ?????? We both know the obvious answer to that question. Jesus is the greatest Savior .

 

[Water and Fire]

And why do we need to be saved from our sins ? What happens to the unsaved ???? Nothing. They don't exist. People who don't exist cannot feel anything. What good is a punishment that you cant feel ????

Gods wrath is not nothing. Jesus saved mankind from eternal torment/punishment . Which is a greater Savior? One who saves mankind from eternal sleep/annihilation ???? Or one who saves mankind from eternal torment/punishment ?????? We both know the obvious answer to that question. Jesus is the greatest Savior .

Please explain why God never warned Adam about this eternal torment, if he at from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I'm pretty sure that would have been the time for it.