Annihilation=No Wrath

[Diamond7]

Is that what the Bible really teaches ??

The Lake of fire, is the second death, this comes after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

 

[BurningBush84]

Alot of people convert to Christianity because they don't wanna risk suffering in Hell forever. If your trying to convince people that Hell doesn't exist then your doing Satan a favor. Satan wants people to believe that there are no eternal consequences for rejecting Jesus. You might as well do whatever you want because the worst thing that could happen is you sleeping forever. And you won't know what your missing because you won't exist anymore. God's wrath is eternal sleep ???? Wow.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Some will indeed die twice ..... yes, once judgement (when He returns) judgement has been made but the consequences of that judgement don't take place until later ..... death is non existence .... the lost will suffer the wrath of being exterminate by fire and will cease to exist.

No no no!

God (read: I, personally, and the church who taught me the immortal soul and eternal conscious torture doctrine because it is tradition) doesn't like that! God (again, read: me, as a mortal man in his carnal vindictive nature as a sinner) says it's eternal torture, or it's not good enough! *stamps foot*


See, the problem is that when people who adhere to the ECT doctrine see fire or judgment written in Scripture, they immediately equate it with eternal torment. But where in Scripture does it say that God's judgment is infinitely ongoing wrath without end or death? Funnily enough, every time God used fire in Scripture to judge and/or punish a single person, a wicked group, or a. wicked nation, I seem to recall them being consumed and destroyed by that fire, not preserved in it such that they feel the pain of burning but never actually burn up ....

 

[SarahsKnight]

And you won't know what your missing because you won't exist anymore. God's wrath is eternal sleep ???? Wow.

Okay, seriously asking. Not being sarcastic like I admit I was being in my previous post: Do you want to die? Even if you thought it was a perfectly peaceful passing into sleep?

I sure don't. I would much rather have forgiveness of sins and immortality with Christ.

 

[BurningBush84]

Okay, seriously asking. Not being sarcastic like I admit I was being in my previous post: Do you want to die? Even if you thought it was a perfectly peaceful passing into sleep?

I sure don't. I would much rather have forgiveness of sins and immortality with Christ.

I would be less likely inclined to obey the 10 commandments. I would probably be a slave to sin because eternal sleep is no punishment whatsoever. But then I would be a victim of Satan's lies, because the Bible clearly teaches that Hell is a place of eternal torment. And God's wrath being Hell, makes a lot more sense.

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

A person can't be punished if they don't exist. .

".....They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. "
Rev 20:10

Can't get much clearer than that .

 

[SarahsKnight]

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

Death is a punishment whether you and the other ECT proponents personally approve of God's methods of justice and judgment or not. But for some reason your logic dictates that punishment, no matter what, must immediately mean conscious suffering, and an endless one at that.

".....They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. "
Rev 20:10

Actually it can get clearer that that. It's amazing that ECT proponents handwave away all the numerous verses throughout the OT and the NT that use the words destroy, consume, perish, or burn up when speaking in direct relation to the fate of the person who refuses to believe (@eleos1954 's posting of Matthew 10:28 on the previous page, in which Jesus straight up says the soul can be destroyed in hell, for instance). Yet the one verse in all of Scripture that uses words akin to eternal conscious torment - "tormented day and night for ever and ever" - in direct relation to a living thing when thrown into the lake of fire, Re 20:10, is in the one book of the Bible most well known for its symbolism and apocalyptic imagery, and to ECT proponents it is to be taken at face value and undeniably prove eternal conscious torment. When the heck of it is, even if you can make a case for taking all of Revelation to its literal extreme, Rev 20:10 still doesn't refer to unbelieving human beings thrown into the lake of fire where it said "tormented day and night for ever and ever" ... only Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. It never says the same happened to humans after the Great White Throne judgment later on in the chapter when they were thrown into the lake. In fact, for humans, it was called the second death (not a living, breathing, conscious eternity).

I would be less likely inclined to obey the 10 commandments.

Have you ever wondered what God thinks of that attitude? That you only follow Him under threat of (what you believe to be) His endless conscious wrath if you fail to?

But then I would be a victim of Satan's lies,

The only lie from Satan I see being - however likely unwittingly - followed is by proponents of the immortal soul and eternal conscious torment in hell belief, the very first one he told in the garden in Genesis, in fact: "You will not surely die!"

 

[BurningBush84]

Revelation 20:10 doesn't apply to humans ????? That's not what Matthew 25:41 says,, “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

Matthew 10:28 is easy to interpret. Whenever someone dies they receive a private judgement from God (Hebrews 9:27) and their soul either goes to heaven or hell. Luke 16:19-31 proves this. Acts 1:25 proves Judas went to hell. On the Last Day when Jesus returns he will reunite body and soul and those private judgements will be made public. So the Rich Man and Judas will be thrown into the lake of fire where their body and soul will endure eternal destruction.

Destruction doesn't mean Annihilation. If I get into a car accident and my vehicle gets destroyed , that doesn't mean my car disappeared.

A person cannot endure eternal punishment if they don't exist. You cant punish someone that doesn't exist, that's common sense.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Revelation 20:10 doesn't apply to humans ????? That's not what Matthew 25:41 says,, “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels".

Still doesn't say that the humans who went in to that fire are preserved in torment by it. Says nothing like that at all. And yeah, Rev 20:10 doesn't apply to humans, because, you know, the text plainly applies it to three specific beings, none of whom are human. And yet when humans are mentioned later, their fate is called the second death. Again, doesn't use any wording at all that sounds like a conscious eternity of torture.

Destruction doesn't mean Annihilation. If I get into a car accident and my vehicle gets destroyed , that doesn't mean my car disappeared.

I can't help but feel that hell proponents deliberately misunderstand the annihilationist position in order to score a meaningless point when they say this. Why does a human necessarily have to disappear entirely from existence in order to be utterly dead or destroyed? Put someone in a fire long enough and they become cremated into nothing but a pile of ash; that ash may be visible, but I sure as heck would not assume that the person it once was is thinking, feeling, or alive in any way, form, or fashion.

I don't know what is so hard about simple wording describing death in the Bible. When God said in Genesis 3:19, "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return", were we really supposed to believe He really meant "From dust you are, and to dust just your physical body will return, and your true self will fly off to Heaven to live with me or to Hell to burn alive for eternity. You never actually stop living or anything."

 

[BNR32FAN]

"..... but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord." Romans 12:19

"........their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them". Deuteronomy 32:35

Annihilation seems very peaceful, the total opposite of experiencing wrath. Annihilation is basically resting in eternal peace, a peaceful soothing eternal sleep. Annihilation means the wicked unbelievers wont have to endure any punishment in the afterlife. Annihilation seems like more of a blessing than a curse. Annihilation seems more like Gods grace rather than his wrath. If your trying to convince people that Gods wrath is peaceful eternal sleep, then Gods wrath is a gracious peaceful reward for the wicked. Absolutely no eternal consequences for the wicked unbeliever. Eternal sleep is a gift, not a consequence, not a punishment. No reason to fear Gods wrath. If you don't go to Heaven it wont matter because you wont know what your missing, you wont feel regret, remorse or pain, you wont feel anything. Is that what the Bible really teaches ??

Annihilation is still wrath if they suffer during the process.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Still doesn't say that the humans who went in to that fire are preserved in torment by it. Says nothing like that at all. And yeah, Rev 20:10 doesn't apply to humans, because, you know, the text plainly applies it to three specific beings, none of whom are human. And yet when humans are mentioned later, their fate is called the second death. Again, doesn't use any wording at all that sounds like a conscious eternity of torture.



I can't help but feel that hell proponents deliberately misunderstand the annihilationist position in order to score a meaningless point when they say this. Why does a human necessarily have to disappear entirely from existence in order to be utterly dead or destroyed? Put someone in a fire long enough and they become cremated into nothing but a pile of ash; that ash may be visible, but I sure as heck would not assume that the person it once was is thinking, feeling, or alive in any way, form, or fashion.

I don't know what is so hard about simple wording describing death in the Bible. When God said in Genesis 3:19, "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return", were we really supposed to believe He really meant "From dust you are, and to dust just your physical body will return, and your true self will fly off to Heaven to live with me or to Hell to burn alive for eternity. You never actually stop living or anything."

I believe the term “then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire” refers to the contents of Hades, that being the unrepentant unbelievers. To my knowledge Hades is never referred to as a person in the scriptures only the place of torment in Sheol.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Annihilation... cute yet that's not what His word says. "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Yeah I'm going with what God says

The word annihilation is used to describe a possibility of what happens to a person after death. Just because it wasn’t specifically used in the scriptures doesn’t mean that it is an invalid description. You won’t find the word Trinity in the Bible either but the description of the word is there. There are several verses that support the use of the word annihilation. Fear the One who can destroy both body and soul. The second death, and the word perish are used in several passages. Personally I see evidence supporting both annihilation and eternal torment in the scriptures so I’m undecided but am leaning more towards annihilation.

 

[BurningBush84]

Still doesn't say that the humans who went in to that fire are preserved in torment by it. Says nothing like that at all. And yeah, Rev 20:10 doesn't apply to humans, because, you know, the text plainly applies it to three specific beings, none of whom are human. And yet when humans are mentioned later, their fate is called the second death. Again, doesn't use any wording at all that sounds like a conscious eternity of torture.



I can't help but feel that hell proponents deliberately misunderstand the annihilationist position in order to score a meaningless point when they say this. Why does a human necessarily have to disappear entirely from existence in order to be utterly dead or destroyed? Put someone in a fire long enough and they become cremated into nothing but a pile of ash; that ash may be visible, but I sure as heck would not assume that the person it once was is thinking, feeling, or alive in any way, form, or fashion.

I don't know what is so hard about simple wording describing death in the Bible. When God said in Genesis 3:19, "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return", were we really supposed to believe He really meant "From dust you are, and to dust just your physical body will return, and your true self will fly off to Heaven to live with me or to Hell to burn alive for eternity. You never actually stop living or anything."

Still doesn't say that the humans who went in to that fire are preserved in torment by it. Says nothing like that at all. And yeah, Rev 20:10 doesn't apply to humans, because, you know, the text plainly applies it to three specific beings, none of whom are human. And yet when humans are mentioned later, their fate is called the second death. Again, doesn't use any wording at all that sounds like a conscious eternity of torture.



I can't help but feel that hell proponents deliberately misunderstand the annihilationist position in order to score a meaningless point when they say this. Why does a human necessarily have to disappear entirely from existence in order to be utterly dead or destroyed? Put someone in a fire long enough and they become cremated into nothing but a pile of ash; that ash may be visible, but I sure as heck would not assume that the person it once was is thinking, feeling, or alive in any way, form, or fashion.

I don't know what is so hard about simple wording describing death in the Bible. When God said in Genesis 3:19, "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return", were we really supposed to believe He really meant "From dust you are, and to dust just your physical body will return, and your true self will fly off to Heaven to live with me or to Hell to burn alive for eternity. You never actually stop living or anything."

I believe the term “then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire” refers to the contents of Hades, that being the unrepentant unbelievers. To my knowledge Hades is never referred to as a person in the scriptures only the place of torment in Sheol.

Revelation 20:10 says the false prophet. "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name".
Matthew 7:22

If you can't see the clear connection between Matthew 25:41 and Romans 20:10 I don't know what to tell you because it's obvious.

You can't endure eternal punishment if you don't exist. You can't be punished if you don't exist.

Yes the body dies but the soul never dies. Luke 16:19-31 proves this.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The first death (earthly) is called a sleep .... ALL will be resurrected.

Yes ... one judgement when Christ returns .... but that is not the final end .... the 2nd death (2nd death is for eternity).

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.

What is it that people don't understand about death .... death has a finality .... the first death is a sleep .... the 2nd death (final) is reserved
for all of the lost and the end of all sin. The first death is called sleep because ALL will be resurrected one day.

Jesus called death a sleep (ie Lazarus is asleep ... Lazarus is dead) .... and also is supported many, many, many times throughout His Word.

What Does the Bible Say About Fall Asleep In Death?

Ceasing to exist for eternity is a blessing? NO .... living for eternity is a blessing.

The wrath of God does not continue thorough out eternity .... who would want that ...... burning and suffering for eternity (I guess you want that). Good grief! How sadistic and down right evil is that?

The resurrection doesn’t have to imply a sleep, it can also imply a physical bodily resurrection that we will inhabit in the new earth. The ceasing of eternal torment can certainly be considered a blessing. Discerning the scriptures isn’t a matter of want it’s a matter of what is written.

 

[eleos1954]

No no no!

God (read: I, personally, and the church who taught me the immortal soul and eternal conscious torture doctrine because it is tradition) doesn't like that! God (again, read: me, as a mortal man in his carnal vindictive nature as a sinner) says it's eternal torture, or it's not good enough! *stamps foot*


See, the problem is that when people who adhere to the ECT doctrine see fire or judgment written in Scripture, they immediately equate it with eternal torment. But where in Scripture does it say that God's judgment is infinitely ongoing wrath without end or death? Funnily enough, every time God used fire in Scripture to judge and/or punish a single person, a wicked group, or a. wicked nation, I seem to recall them being consumed and destroyed by that fire, not preserved in it such that they feel the pain of burning but never actually burn up ....

well that's what I'm saying ..... there is NO eternal torture ..... there is the 2nd death (of the lost) .... and death is death ... non existence.

We are all subject to death .... we are mortal ..... we receive eternal life when Jesus returns .... and only then. He died so that we may have life for eternity .... not put in a torture chamber for eternity.

 

[BurningBush84]

"It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell"

Matthew 5:29-30

Why would self mutilation in this life be better than soothing peaceful eternal sleep ???

" I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town." Luke 10:12

How would it be more bearable for some when all the wicked unbelievers will receive the same blessing of annihilation aka eternal sleep??

Also Luke 12:47-48 describe different levels different degrees of punishment. How can there be different degrees of punishment if you don't exist anymore ??

"There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown outside." Luke 13:28

How can you see anything if you don't exist ? More proof against annihilation. Unbelievers won't be sleeping eternally. They will be looking up and watching the Saints enjoy Heaven while they suffer in Hell.

"In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side". Luke 16:23

 

[BNR32FAN]

Revelation 20:10 says the false prophet. "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name".
Matthew 7:22

If you can't see the clear connection between Matthew 25:41 and Romans 20:10 I don't know what to tell you because it's obvious.

You can't endure eternal punishment if you don't exist. You can't be punished if you don't exist.

Yes the body dies but the soul never dies. Luke 16:19-31 proves this.

Revelation 20:14-15 says Hades and death and everyone whose name was not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Matthew 7:15-27 is referring to many false prophets not only one particular false prophet.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man has nothing to do with what is taking place in Revelation 20. Judgement Day hasn’t happened yet. The rich man is not in the lake of fire he’s in Hades in Sheol.

Then there “do not fear those who can destroy the body but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul.

 

[BurningBush84]

Revelation 20:14-15 says Hades and death and everyone whose name was not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Matthew 7:15-27 is referring to many false prophets not only one particular false prophet.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man has nothing to do with what is taking place in Revelation 20. Judgement Day hasn’t happened yet. The rich man is not in the lake of fire he’s in Hades in Sheol.

Then there “do not fear those who can destroy the body but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul.

Well obviously the Rich Man's soul is currently enduring eternal destruction right now. And when Jesus reunites his body with his soul then both his body and soul will endure eternal destruction. You can't be punished eternally if you don't exist.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well obviously the Rich Man's soul is currently enduring eternal destruction right now. And when Jesus reunites his body with his soul then both his body and soul will endure eternal destruction. You can't be punished eternally if you don't exist.

The destruction of a soul is an eternal punishment. The souls is being destroyed as a punishment and its destruction is eternal not temporal. The rich man is in torment but he’s not in the lake of fire yet. Death and Hades aren’t thrown into the lake of fire until after Judgement Day. Revelation 20:14-15

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BurningBush84]

The destruction of a soul is an eternal punishment. The souls is being destroyed as a punishment and its destruction is eternal not temporal. The rich man is in torment but he’s not in the lake of fire yet. Death and Hades aren’t thrown into the lake of fire until after Judgement Day. Revelation 20:14-15

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I understand your point , but fire is fire. "....send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.". Luke 16:24

My guess is with Hades , Satan and his angels/demons are not in agony yet. They are probably torturing the souls who are in the prison (Hades). But on Judgement Day they all will suffer eternally, demons, Satan and unbelievers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I understand your point , but fire is fire. "....send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.". Luke 16:24

My guess is with Hades , Satan and his angels/demons are not in agony yet. They are probably torturing the souls who are in the prison (Hades). But on Judgement Day they all will suffer eternally, demons, Satan and unbelievers.

I don’t disagree with eternal torment friend. I see scriptural evidence that could be supportive of annihilation or eternal torment. I’m actually undecided on the subject but I am leaning more towards annihilation. Can I be happy in heaven knowing that I may have loved ones who are suffering in agony for all eternity or would I be more at peace if I knew their suffering was over and they are at rest? I know this is not scriptural evidence, it’s human sentiment and I will accept God’s decision either way because I trust that He knows what is best but I can’t see myself being completely at peace and happy in heaven knowing that my loved ones are suffering in agony forever.