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Andromeda

Tuur

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Neat.

What's this have to do with reconciling Genesis 1 with a product of theoretical physics?
It eliminates wormholes as a theoretical work-around. Even if a stable wormhole were possible, it would have to be huge not to show a parallax and there are more distant objects in the sky to account for than the Andromeda galaxy.

If you want to tinker with making creation in a literal six days fit, try time dilation so that six days from the standpoint of an observer is about 4 and a half billion by our perception. Then think of a way that it would work.
 
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AV1611VET

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It eliminates wormholes as a theoretical work-around.

Your explanation must be awful weak then.

I don't see wormholes eliminated.

In fact ...

From AI Overview:

The theory of wormholes hasn't been discounted.

In fact, wormholes remain a subject of active research and theoretical exploration within the realm of physics.

Here's why:

General Relativity allows them: The equations of Einstein's theory of General Relativity, our best description of how gravity works, do mathematically permit the existence of wormholes as theoretical solutions.

Potential for Shortcuts: Wormholes could theoretically provide shortcuts through spacetime, enabling faster-than-light travel or even a form of time travel, although these possibilities face significant theoretical and practical challenges.

Ongoing Research: Scientists continue to investigate the properties of wormholes, their potential formation mechanisms, and the conditions under which they might become traversable, even if only for quantum information.
 
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sjastro

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Thank you for your reply.

I appreciate it.

But show me one post in this thread that talks about the age of Andromeda.

I was careful to frame my posts so as to contain lookback time, not age.
You must think the readers of your "challenges" are totally braindead, completely illiterate or a combination of both.
AV1611VET:
I've read every post so far, and I don't see anyone confusing lookback time with the age of Andromeda.


Andromeda is as old as God willed it to be when He created it in 4004 BC.

It is also as far away as He willed it to be when He created it in 4004 BC.

Yet the light of Andromeda was on the earth before Adam was created two days later.
If you give me the exact date when the Andromeda Galaxy was created according to your version of the Bible it is either 6028 or 6029 years old
 
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AV1611VET

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If you give me the exact date when the Andromeda Galaxy was created according to your version of the Bible it is either 6028 or 6029 years old

It was created in 4004 BC, and its age has nothing to do with this thread.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Very simple question:

If God creates a star 50 million light years away tomorrow and sends its light through a wormhole to the earth, will we see it tomorrow?
Let's just say that with miracles all things are possible.
 
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sjastro

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It was created in 4004 BC, and its age has nothing to do with this thread.
Is some sort of a joke?
If it was created in 4004 BC its age is nearly 6030 years.
The whole point of this ridiculous thread is galaxies cannot be further out than 6030 light years hence the nonsense about wormholes.

If you tried to understand the posts written in this thread inside of thinking you possess one of the finest minds of the 12th century, photons travelling inside wormholes will never be as observed as the wormhole is pinched by the positive energy of the photon.
This is what your AI overview is implying "Wormholes could theoretically provide shortcuts through spacetime, enabling faster-than-light travel or even a form of time travel, although these possibilities face significant theoretical and practical challenges."

For someone to tell science to take a hike while simultaneously relying on highly speculative physics to support creationism is beyond hypocritical but laughable.
 
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Hans Blaster

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f you tried to understand the posts written in this thread inside of thinking you possess one of the finest minds of the 12th century, photons travelling inside wormholes will never be as observed as the wormhole is pinched by the positive energy of the photon.

A fireball was just detected over Guam.
 
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AV1611VET

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Is some sort of a joke?

No.

If it was created in 4004 BC its age is nearly 6030 years.

Unless its age was embedded at creation for purposes not revealed in the Scriptures.

The whole point of this ridiculous thread is galaxies cannot be further out than 6030 light years hence the nonsense about wormholes.

The whole point of this thread is that we see Andromeda because of wormholes.

If you tried to understand the posts written in this thread inside of thinking you possess one of the finest minds of the 12th century, photons travelling inside wormholes will never be as observed as the wormhole is pinched by the positive energy of the photon.

If you tried to understand the posts written in this thread inside of thinking you possess one of the finest minds of the 21st century, you'd see ...

From AI Overview:

The theoretical models describing traversable wormholes suggest that they require exotic matter with negative energy density to remain stable. This means that the presence of normal matter, like photons with positive energy, would actually cause the wormhole to collapse rather than stabilize it.

So far, this supports what you said: the wormhole wouldn't work.

BUT ...

Dark matter is considered exotic matter because the prevailing theory is that it consists of unknown, non-baryonic particles that interact with ordinary matter (made of protons, neutrons, and electrons) only through gravity and not via the electromagnetic force, making it invisible to telescopes.

Notice: dark matter is considered exotic matter, which will stabilize a wormhole.

Finally we read this ...

Some theoretical research suggests that specific forms of dark matter, particularly if they possess properties like negative energy, could potentially stabilize a wormhole. While normal dark matter behaves like regular matter gravitationally, other theoretical models that include axions or other dark matter particles under certain conditions, like strong electromagnetic fields or quantum effects, could provide the negative energy density needed to hold a wormhole open and prevent it from collapsing.

Now -- here's the kicker ...

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I have always contended here that those "chains of darkness" could very well be dark energy.

Such as here:

I struggled with this passage ...

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

... until dark matter was discovered.

... and here:

I find this dark matter intriguing, since God locked the fallen angels that came to earth away in "chains of darkness".

And that settles it, as far as I'm concerned.

For someone to tell science to take a hike while simultaneously relying on highly speculative physics to support creationism is beyond hypocritical but laughable.

For one thing, I can't believe I let someone drag me into a scientific discussion.

I barely know what I'm talking about here, and I'm relying more on AI Overview than I am the Bible.

Suffice it to say that, if you still disagree with me, that's your prerogative.

Maybe God is using wormholes, maybe He isn't.

But any further discussions on wormholes from a scientific perspective to try to pwn Andromeda and you can consider the following reply from me:

GOD DID IT -- CASE CLOSED

I got the answer I was looking for in this thread -- wormholes -- and I'm satisfied that at least one person knew what I was talking about.

Are we done now?
 
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sjastro

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No.



Unless its age was embedded at creation for purposes not revealed in the Scriptures.



The whole point of this thread is that we see Andromeda because of wormholes.



If you tried to understand the posts written in this thread inside of thinking you possess one of the finest minds of the 21st century, you'd see ...

From AI Overview:

The theoretical models describing traversable wormholes suggest that they require exotic matter with negative energy density to remain stable. This means that the presence of normal matter, like photons with positive energy, would actually cause the wormhole to collapse rather than stabilize it.

So far, this supports what you said: the wormhole wouldn't work.

BUT ...

Dark matter is considered exotic matter because the prevailing theory is that it consists of unknown, non-baryonic particles that interact with ordinary matter (made of protons, neutrons, and electrons) only through gravity and not via the electromagnetic force, making it invisible to telescopes.

Notice: dark matter is considered exotic matter, which will stabilize a wormhole.

Finally we read this ...

Some theoretical research suggests that specific forms of dark matter, particularly if they possess properties like negative energy, could potentially stabilize a wormhole. While normal dark matter behaves like regular matter gravitationally, other theoretical models that include axions or other dark matter particles under certain conditions, like strong electromagnetic fields or quantum effects, could provide the negative energy density needed to hold a wormhole open and prevent it from collapsing.
I think it’s a bit rich for you to rely on AI overview for your answers which are clearly way beyond your level of comprehension.
Did you or AI overview bother to differentiate between mainstream and fringe science, I don’t think so.
Since your level of understanding is zero, I’ll respond directly to AI overview.

Firstly there is the subject of negative energy and how it relates to the mainstream idea of the vacuum energy of a quantum field as described in this post.


If the energy of the field falls below the average or expectation value for the vacuum energy you have negative energy which has been discovered in the laboratory as the Casimir effect.

Here is the first problem, in mainstream theory negative energy is localized as shown in the Casimir effect, in the fringe theory since wormholes are macroscopic in nature requires vast amounts of negative energy. Where does this energy come from given the vacuum fluctuations of the Casimir effect are insignificant in keeping wormholes open?

Secondly is the nature of dark matter itself, while still an unknown the observed phenomenological effects on galaxy rotation curves and the escape velocities of galaxies in clusters is due to gravitational effects requiring dark matter to have positive energy. If dark matter is composed of negative energy density the gravitational effects of dark matter become repulsive which contradicts the observed effects.
Then there is the design of dark matter detectors such as liquid Xenon chambers which rely on dark matter scattering off nuclei which only measure positive energy transfer.

Exotic matter such as dark matter having negative energy density are like wormholes, they are mathematical constructions which at best are predictions which are currently not supported by observation or experiment, at worst form crank theories.
By failing to show the problems of the fringe theory, the AI overview answer is incomplete.
Now -- here's the kicker ...

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

I have always contended here that those "chains of darkness" could very well be dark energy.

Such as here:



... and here:



And that settles it, as far as I'm concerned.
Now that you are back on familiar territory of grotesquely misinterpreting the Bible why don’t you get AI overview of showing how your Biblical quotes relate to dark matter and dark energy. AI providing feedback on incoherent nonsense would be comical.
For one thing, I can't believe I let someone drag me into a scientific discussion.

I barely know what I'm talking about here, and I'm relying more on AI Overview than I am the Bible.

Suffice it to say that, if you still disagree with me, that's your prerogative.

Maybe God is using wormholes, maybe He isn't.

But any further discussions on wormholes from a scientific perspective to try to pwn Andromeda and you can consider the following reply from me:

GOD DID IT -- CASE CLOSED

I got the answer I was looking for in this thread -- wormholes -- and I'm satisfied that at least one person knew what I was talking about.

Are we done now?
This is totally ridiculous, you post on a science forum and can’t believe why you are being dragged into a scientific discussion??
Instead of polluting this forum with your nonsensical “challenges” which are nothing more than puerile attempts to denigrate science, take it elsewhere where likeminded people who are also threatened and intimidated by science will appreciate your rubbish.
 
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sjastro

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Here is one of my AI challenges for GPT-5.
In my previous post negative energy via the Casimir force was discovered in 1997 with the claim the negative energy cannot keep a wormhole open as it is significantly small in magnitude.

I asked GPT-5 to:

(1) Convert the Casimir force into a (negative energy density) value based on the 1997 experiment.
(2) Calculate the theoretical amount of negative energy density required to keep a one metre diameter wormhole throat open.
(3) Show how the discovered negative energy density based on quantum field fluctuations cannot keep a one metre diameter wormhole open.
(4) Provide references.


Here’s a clean way to connect the 1997 measurement to an energy scale, then compare it to what a traversable wormhole would demand.

1) “Express the Casimir force as an energy value” (Lamoreaux, 1997)

Lamoreaux’s landmark 1997 experiment measured the Casimir attraction using a sphere–plane setup (gold-coated sphere of radius R=11.3 cm facing a flat plate) at separations

a ≈ 0.6–6 μm. In the proximity-force limit, the sphere–plane force is related to the parallel-plate Casimir energy per unit area |E|/A by  F(a) ≈ 2πR (E/A).

For ideal metals at zero temperature:

|E|/A  =  − π²ℏc/720a³  and P(a)  =  − π²ℏc/240a⁴,

where P is the pressure. Lamoreaux explicitly uses this relation in deriving the sphere–plane expression and reports agreement with theory at the 5% level over a = 0.6 – 6 μm.

(Physical Review Journals)

Plugging in the closest reported separation a = 0.6 – 6 μm:
  • Energy density (per area): ∣E∣/A ≈ 2.0×10⁻⁹ J m⁻².
  • Pressure magnitude: ∣P∣ ≈ 1.0×10⁻² Pa.
So even a full square metre of perfectly parallel plate at 0.6 μm gap would store only ∼2.0×10⁻⁹ joules of (negative) Casimir energy.

(Using the same formula at 1 μm gives ∣E∣/A ≈ 4.3×10⁻¹⁰J m⁻² and ∣P∣≈1.3×10⁻³ Pa.) (Physical Review Journals)

2) Why this is nowhere near enough to hold a wormhole open

Traversable Morris–Thorne wormholes require exotic matter that violates the null energy condition. Quantum-field-theory “quantum inequalities” derived by Ford & Roman show that negative energy can only occur in tiny amounts, for very short times, and must be compensated by larger positive energy—severely limiting any macroscopic engineering. (arXiv, Physical Review Links)

A widely cited estimate (Visser, summarized in Scientific American) puts the requirement into perspective: a wormhole with a 1-metre throat would need negative energy of order the total energy output of ~10 billion stars for one year—i.e., ∼10⁴⁴ joules. The same article notes the negative energy would need to be confined to an extremely thin band around the throat (down to fantastically small thicknesses in some models), which Casimir setups do not provide at macroscopic scales. (JSTOR, webhome.phy.duke.edu)

Compare scales:
  • Casimir (lab, a = 0.6 μm): ∼ 2×10⁻⁹ J per square metre.
  • Wormhole (~1 m throat, Area throat = 4π(0.5)²≈ 3.14 m²): 10⁴⁴/3.14 m² ∼ 3.2×10⁴³ J m⁻² plus stringent localization/time-duration limits from quantum inequalities.
Even if you tiled many square metres of plates, you’d be short by a factor of about

3.2×10⁴³ J m⁻² / 2×10⁻⁹ J m⁻² ∼  1.6×10⁵²,

and you would still fail the quantum-inequality constraints on how negative energy can be distributed in space and time. In short: the measured Casimir energy densities are real but astronomically too small—and too delocalized under QI limits—to keep a traversable wormhole open. (Physical Review Journals, arXiv, JSTOR)



Sources
• S.K. Lamoreaux, “Demonstration of the Casimir Force in the 0.6 to 6 µm Range,” Phys. Rev. Lett. 78, 5–8 (1997). Includes the sphere–plane formula and experimental details. (Massachusetts Institute of Technology)
• A. Lambrecht, S. Reynaud, review context for E/A and P(a) relation F(a) ≈ 2πR (E/A). (ScienceDirect)
• G.L. Klimchitskaya et al., Rev. Mod. Phys. 81, 1827 (2009): standard formulas  |E|/A  =  − π²ℏc/720a³  and P(a)  =  − π²ℏc/240a⁴.(Physical Review Journals)
• L.H. Ford & T.A. Roman, “Quantum inequalities” (constraints on negative energy). (arXiv, Physical Review Links)
• M. Visser summary in Scientific American (quantitative wormhole energy estimate, 1-m throat ≈ 10 billion stars/year). (webhome.phy.duke.edu, JSTOR)
 
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sjastro

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I had a bit of fun on how AI (GPT-5) would answer AV's equating various Biblical verses with dark matter and dark energy.
It played a very straight bat to such a degree it was very unhuman like. :)

Comment on these remarks.
(1) 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
I have always contended here that those "chains of darkness" could very well be dark energy.

(2) I struggled with this passage ...

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

... until dark matter was discovered.
(3) I find this dark matter intriguing, since God locked the fallen angels that came to earth away in "chains of darkness".


Those are imaginative and heartfelt interpretations, blending faith and modern cosmology—but from a traditional theological standpoint, they’re metaphorical rather than literal.




1) “Chains of darkness” as dark energy


  • Biblical context: The expression “chains of darkness” in 2 Peter 2:4 refers to fallen angels being confined in Tartarus—a place of restraint, akin to a prison of darkness pending judgment. It’s a spiritual image, not tied to physical phenomena. Some ancient manuscripts even render the term as “pits” or “caves,” reinforcing the figure of confinement rather than a scientific substance. (Bible Hub, King James Bible Online, StudyLight.org)
  • Dark energy: In physics, dark energy is a mysterious cosmic “anti-gravitational” force causing the accelerated expansion of the universe—nothing like a binding or confining force. (United Church of God, Wikipedia)

So while it’s creatively poetic, it’s not a grounded theological or scientific interpretation.




2) Struggling with the verse until dark matter was discovered


  • Scientific meaning: Dark matter is the unseen mass in the universe (about 27% of total energy density) that exerts gravitational pull but doesn’t interact with light. It’s an astrophysical concept—not one that appears in or explains the “chains of darkness” imagery. (Wikipedia)
  • Theological meaning: The verse portrays angels judged and bound in spiritual darkness—not matter or energy in the cosmic sense.

Thus, dark matter doesn’t really “rescue” or clarify that passage—it’s a separate, distinct realm.




3) Finding dark matter intriguing since the verse mentions angels locked away in “chains of darkness”


  • It’s certainly natural to see poetic resonance between the unseen universe (dark matter/dark energy) and spiritual darkness. Many are moved by the overlap of mystery in what’s visible and what’s unseen.
  • But theologically: The phrase “chains of darkness” symbolizes spiritual confinement, divine judgment, and separation from God—not scientific phenomena or astrophysical entities.



Summary Table​


InterpretationTheological BasisScientific CounterpartFit?
“Chains of darkness” = dark energyNo—Biblical metaphor for spiritual confinementDark energy: repulsive cosmological forceNot aligned
Verse made sense after discovery of dark matterNo—Dark matter is physical, the verse is spiritualDark matter: invisible gravitational massNot applicable
Dark matter resonates with scripture’s imageryIt’s poetic, not literal or doctrinalThere's no overlap in function or meaningMetaphoric only



What scholars note about the verse:​


  • Greek nuance: The original Greek uses “Tartarus” for “hell”—a term rooted in mythology and used to emphasize a place of spiritual exile. “Chains of darkness” underscores the confinement, both physically (in metaphor) and spiritually. (Bible Tools, StudyLight.org)
  • Purpose in context: Peter invokes this imagery to warn his readers against false teachers—using the fate of rebellious angels as proof: if heavenly beings weren't spared, then false teachers certainly won’t be. (The Pastor's Brief, versebyversecommentary.com)



In conclusion​


It's wonderful to see modern scientific discoveries like dark matter and dark energy inspire reflection. But when it comes to verses like 2 Peter 2:4, the original meaning is firmly anchored in spiritual symbolism, judgment, and divine order—not in astrophysical phenomena. While the interpretations are imaginative and speak to the sense of mystery in both realms, they’re metaphorical rather than scholarly or doctrinally grounded.
Before AV goes off on one of his bizarre interpretations of Biblical verse maybe he should consult AI.
 
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Aaron112

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The whole point of this thread is that we see Andromeda because of wormholes.
Both this is the funniest thing I've read or seen today....
and I'm kinda sad for it.
 
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