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Andromeda

DamianWarS

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But I'm not a Deist.
You've adopted a science fiction version of wormholes. By this account God makes wormholes highly volatile so that he can push them well beyond their limits by keeping billions of wormholes open for thousands of years so earth can have an illuminated sky at night, and does this all in secret so much so that wormholes themselves are only known theoretical

I'm not sure what you think reconciling means but this is not it.

You've still haven't shown relevance. Andromeda and the creation account co-exist, they don't need to be reconciled despite their tensions. Although the Hebrews did not write about Andromeda this is something call hebraic block logic which is a fundamental shift from how we (modern western thinking) organise ideas in step logic. Ideas may also exist in tension juxtaposed together without need to reconcile them. The Bible is most certainly organised this way but it's on us to approach it with care to how it is written and who it is written for.
 
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AV1611VET

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You've adopted a science fiction version of wormholes.

Or a miraculous one.

By this account God makes wormholes highly volatile ...

I don't know about their volatility; I'm not an expert on wormholes.

But if they are highly volatile, it's for a reason.

... so that he can push them well beyond their limits ...

I'm not sure God created things, so He could "push them well beyond their limits."

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

... by keeping billions of wormholes open for thousands of years so earth can have an illuminated sky at night,

Propping a door open is the same thing as "pushing a door beyond its limits"?

Or maybe they were created to stay open?

... and does this all in secret so much so that wormholes themselves are only known theoretically.

Do you object to God doing things in secret?

Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

I'm not sure what you think reconciling means but this is not it.

From AI Overview:

In theoretical physics, a wormhole is a hypothetical shortcut through spacetime that could drastically shorten travel time between two distant points in the universe. Andromeda is approximately 2.5 million light-years away from Earth, meaning the light we see from it tonight left 2.5 million years ago. If a wormhole connecting Earth and Andromeda existed and was stable enough for light to pass through, it could potentially allow the light to reach us in a much shorter time than 2.5 million years.

Sounds like reconciliation to me.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Does the science behind my computer violate Scripture in any way?

If not, then computer science is more than welcome to stay.

Does the science behind astronomy violate Scripture?

Yes, indeed -- by claiming the light we see from Andromeda left Andromeda 2.537 million years ago.
So you reject some results but not the scientific process itself?

Not that I am that glued to 2,537 M years for Andromeda. A light year is simply the distance light travels in a year. So it took that many years for the light we see today to get to us.
Recent estimates ranging from five to 10 billion years old.

 
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Perpetual Student

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If you're going to make the mistake of thinking 2.537 light years away means 2.537 years passed before it hit the earth, yes.
I am not assuming this. It is the logical and inevitable consequence or carefully gathered empirical evidence.

Academia teaches that the farther away something is, the older it is.
Nope. Something can be very nearby and yet older. If my grandma sits between me and my mother, it doesn't make my mom older than my granny. Not according to the birth certificates, not according to academia.
With God, age and distance mean nothing.
Bur with empirical science, these things mean something.
How do you think God heard the sighs of the children of Israel in Egypt in real time?
Did he? And is he selectively deaf?
Why didn't he hear the sighs of the Holocaust victims? Of the children on the Lolita flights? In Gaza? Not worth his attention? Does not every life matters?
 
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AV1611VET

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I am not assuming this. It is the logical and inevitable consequence or carefully gathered empirical evidence.

Either that, or it's assumed the light left Andromeda 2.537 billion years ago.

If it was empirical, as you say, who saw it depart 2.537 billion years ago, and who saw it arrive 2.537 billion years later.


Yup.

From AI Overview:

Farther out in space means looking further back in time, and thus seeing objects as they were when they were younger. This is because light from distant objects takes a long time to reach us, so we are seeing them as they were in the past.


Yes.

And is he selectively deaf?

If He so chooses.

Why didn't he hear the sighs of the Holocaust victims?

He did.

And He sent a Christian nation to put a stop to it.

Of the children on the Lolita flights? In Gaza? Not worth his attention? Does not every life matters?

You forgot Thalidomide.

You forgot abortion.

Would any of us be here, if God operated like a bug zapper?
 
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sjastro

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It is extraordinary how anyone can confuse lookback time with the age of an object.
Light does not travel at an infinite speed but nearly 300,000 km/s.

The lookback time is equal to the time it takes for light to reach an observer on Earth.
For the Sun this is 8 minutes, for Rigel a bright star in Orion 860 years.
Yet the the Sun is 4.57 billion years old and Rigel no more than 9 million years old.
 
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AV1611VET

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It is extraordinary how anyone can confuse lookback time with the age of an object.

I've read every post so far, and I don't see anyone confusing lookback time with the age of Andromeda.

Andromeda is as old as God willed it to be when He created it in 4004 BC.

It is also as far away as He willed it to be when He created it in 4004 BC.

Yet the light of Andromeda was on the earth before Adam was created two days later.
 
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sjastro

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The poster's response in #88 is indicative of a highly confused individual.
He doesn't seem to realise he is the individual confusing lookback time with age. He quotes AI overview naively thinking it supports his argument yet is completely unaware it provides an example of lookback time.

The Andromeda galaxy like our Milky Way galaxy is part of the Local Group which is a gravitationally bound system. In this case its measured distance is indicative of lookback time.
If the Andromeda galaxy was not gravitationally bound and experienced cosmological redshift through metric expansion of spacetime distance is not indicative of lookback time.

The idea being perpetrated scientists think the further the object is away from Earth the older it is, is so patently ridiculous.
 
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AV1611VET

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The idea being perpetrated scientists think the further the object is away from Earth the older it is, is so patently ridiculous.

From AI Overview:

The further, the older:

The farther away an object is, the longer its light has been traveling, and the further back in time we are seeing it.
 
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sjastro

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From AI Overview:

The further, the older:

The farther away an object is, the longer its light has been traveling, and the further back in time we are seeing it.
Good grief since you rely on AI overview here is GPT-5's response which is not much of a challenge.

"The further, the older: The farther away an object is, the longer its light has been traveling, and the further back in time we are seeing it."

This is an example of lookback time, not the actual age of the object.

  • Lookback time: Refers to how far back in the past we are seeing the object, because its light has taken millions or billions of years to reach us. For example, if we observe a galaxy 10 billion light-years away, we are seeing it as it looked 10 billion years ago.
  • Actual age: Refers to how old the object (or the Universe itself) is now, in the present moment, not just how old it appeared to be when the light left it.
So the quote emphasizes our observational perspective—we look further away, we look further back in time—not the true, present-day age of the object.
GPT-5' s graphical depiction of lookback time and age.

Lookback.png
 
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Tuur

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From AI Overview:

In theoretical physics, a wormhole is a hypothetical shortcut through spacetime that could drastically shorten travel time between two distant points in the universe. Andromeda is approximately 2.5 million light-years away from Earth, meaning the light we see from it tonight left 2.5 million years ago. If a wormhole connecting Earth and Andromeda existed and was stable enough for light to pass through, it could potentially allow the light to reach us in a much shorter time than 2.5 million years.

Sounds like reconciliation to me.
Unfortunately, there's a number of problems, not the least of which is a stable wormhole. Then we're talking about a wormhole far enough from Andromeda to allow us to see the entire galaxy. Next it has to be large enough that there isn't a parallax between one side of the earth's orbit to the other. Then there's how Andromeda doesn't show as more than a faint fuzzy whitish blog to the naked eye and not a cloud of stars. Then there are the Cepheid stars, who's magnitude can be calculated by the period of brightening and dimming, and how Hubble figured out the distance to Andromeda by how the apparent magnitude from Earth compares to the actual magnitude. Then there are other galaxies beside Andromeda.
 
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Tuur

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It is extraordinary how anyone can confuse lookback time with the age of an object.
Umm...not that hard. Using poor ol' Andromeda, it;'s about 2.5 million light years away, so the light we see left roughly 2.5 million years ago. That's lookback time, of course, but the mind focuses on that 2.5 million years ago. OF course Andromeda is older than 2.5 million years, but 2.5 million years sticks in the mind.
 
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essentialsaltes

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FWIW, objects are at least as old as the light we're currently receiving from it.

If one were quixotically trying to cram everything into a 6,000 year old scenario, a few million years is just as problematic as a few billion.
 
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sjastro

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I recently saw the movie Interstellar directed by Christopher Nolan.
There must have been a considerable science input such as the Tesseract which is a 4D cube.

8-cell-simple.gif

Doing some research I found the science advisor was none other than the Nobel Prize winner in Physics Kip Thorne who wrote a book on the film.

51d1iRacT1L._SY445_SX342_.jpg

Kip Thorne is also an expert on the subject of wormholes having made major contributions to the theory when it was first proposed by Flamm in 1916.

Wormhole.png

According to the theory advanced by physicists such as Thorne if positive energy in the form of matter and photons contacts a wormhole it will collapse. Therefore light cannot travel through wormholes unless exotic matter in the form of negative energy is introduced to keep the wormhole open.
As I mentioned previously wormholes only work in Hollywood, exotic matter keeping wormholes open is in the realm of science fiction.
 
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sjastro

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I recently saw the movie Interstellar directed by Christopher Nolan.
There must have been a considerable science input such as the Tesseract which is a 4D cube.

8-cell-simple.gif

Doing some research I found the science advisor was none other than the Nobel Prize winner in Physics Kip Thorne who wrote a book on the film.

51d1iRacT1L._SY445_SX342_.jpg

Kip Thorne is also an expert on the subject of wormholes having made major contributions to the theory when it was first proposed by Flamm in 1916.

According to the theory advanced by physicists such as Thorne if positive energy in the form of matter and photons contacts a wormhole it will collapse. Therefore light cannot travel through wormholes unless exotic matter in the form of negative energy is introduced to keep the wormhole open.
As I mentioned previously wormholes only work in Hollywood, exotic matter keeping wormholes open is in the realm of science fiction.
Apparently Kip Thorne was more than a science advisor on the film Interstellar.

Yes, absolutely. Kip Thorne was not just an advisor; he was a central and essential figure in the creation of Interstellar.

His involvement went far beyond a typical scientific consultation. Here’s a breakdown of his crucial roles:

1. Originator and Executive Producer
The project began with Kip Thorne. He had a long-standing friendship with Lynda Obst, a producer. In 2005, they started developing a science fiction film concept that would accurately depict the wonders of modern astrophysics, particularly wormholes and black holes. Steven Spielberg was initially attached to direct, and Jonathan Nolan was hired to write the script. When Christopher Nolan took over as director, he reworked the script with his brother but kept Thorne's core scientific ideas intact. Thorne is credited as an executive producer.

2. The Scientific Gatekeeper
Thorne's primary role was to ensure the science in the film was as accurate as possible, or at least grounded in real scientific theory. He established a rule for the director:
"Nothing in the film would violate established physical laws, and that all the wild speculations would spring from science, not from the creative mind of a screenwriter."

He provided the conceptual foundation for the film's most iconic elements:
  • The Wormhole: Thorne designed the plausible visual representation of a wormhole as a spherical hole in space, not a flat disk. The shimmering, lensing effect around it is based on how light would actually bend around such an object.
  • Gargantua, the Black Hole: This was Thorne's most significant contribution. He provided the complex mathematical equations for how light would behave around a spinning (Kerr) black hole. The resulting visual effects, created by Double Negative studio, were so scientifically accurate that they led to two peer-reviewed scientific papers (co-authored by Thorne and the VFX team lead).
  • Time Dilation on Miller's Planet: The extreme time dilation (1 hour = 7 years on Earth) due to its proximity to Gargantua is a direct consequence of Einstein's theory of general relativity. Thorne calculated the necessary orbital distance and spin of the black hole to make this effect possible.
  • The Tesseract (5D Space): While the depiction of a five-dimensional space is highly speculative, Thorne worked with the Nolans to ensure its representation was a plausible interpretation of higher-dimensional physics, rather than pure fantasy.
3. Where Art Took Over Science
Thorne was pragmatic and understood the needs of storytelling. He agreed to a few key departures from strict scientific accuracy:
  • The Look of the Wormhole: While the physics of the wormhole's exterior was accurate, the colorful, journeyable interior was a creative embellishment. Thorne has stated that no one knows what the inside of a traversable wormhole would actually look like.
  • Surviving the Black Hole: Cooper falling into Gargantua and surviving is the film's biggest scientific leap. A real black hole would spaghettify and destroy any matter. Thorne agreed to this because it was essential for the plot's emotional and philosophical core. He provided the "bulk beings" (5D humans) as a speculative, hand-wavy mechanism to explain Cooper's survival and entry into the tesseract.

In summary, Kip Thorne was the scientific heart of Interstellar. His involvement ensured the film's groundbreaking visual effects and core concepts were rooted in real science, making it one of the most scientifically authentic blockbusters ever made. His collaboration resulted in new insights into gravitational lensing and a unique fusion of scientific rigor and cinematic spectacle.
 
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AV1611VET

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Good grief since you rely on AI overview here is GPT-5's response which is not much of a challenge.

Thank you for your reply.

I appreciate it.

But show me one post in this thread that talks about the age of Andromeda.

I was careful to frame my posts so as to contain lookback time, not age.
 
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AV1611VET

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Unfortunately, there's a number of problems, not the least of which is a stable wormhole. Then we're talking about a wormhole far enough from Andromeda to allow us to see the entire galaxy. Next it has to be large enough that there isn't a parallax between one side of the earth's orbit to the other. Then there's how Andromeda doesn't show as more than a faint fuzzy whitish blog to the naked eye and not a cloud of stars. Then there are the Cepheid stars, who's magnitude can be calculated by the period of brightening and dimming, and how Hubble figured out the distance to Andromeda by how the apparent magnitude from Earth compares to the actual magnitude. Then there are other galaxies beside Andromeda.

Neat.

What's this have to do with reconciling Genesis 1 with a product of theoretical physics?
 
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AV1611VET

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FWIW, objects are at least as old as the light we're currently receiving from it.

If one were quixotically trying to cram everything into a 6,000 year old scenario, a few million years is just as problematic as a few billion.

Very simple question:

If God creates a star 50 million light years away tomorrow and sends its light through a wormhole to the earth, will we see it tomorrow?
 
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Yttrium

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Very simple question:

If God creates a star 50 million light years away tomorrow and sends its light through a wormhole to the earth, will we see it tomorrow?
Give it a day. God's not going to put all those wormholes right next to the planet, you know.
 
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