An "Apology" from P and P

[ArmyMatt]

Apologies Matt, I didn't take note of who first used the term. I would have thought that to be in communion with Rome a denomination would need to accept RC doctrines such as Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility, but I may be wrong about that.

well, even if they don't use it per say, there has to be an openness to it because they are in communion with those that do. I had a Melkite friend in college who would often say that being Melkite is schizophrenic. because on paper they denounce Roman things as heresy, yet are in full communion with them which is an acceptance of those beliefs.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Absolutely! Henry VIII, Edward VI, Mary Tudor, Elizabeth I - lots of martyrs on both Catholic and Church of England sides. Foxe's book of martyrs. Gunpowder Plot. An interesting period of History!
C of E didn't start out that Protestant - Henry just didn't like that the Pope wouldn't grant him a divorce so declared himself head of the Church in England. But other than that the beliefs were consistent with Rome for a while (until influences from the Protestant reformation on the continent filtered over) and England even turned back to Catholicism for a short while under Mary I.

I might do more looking into that - I'd actually be interested, and the CofE is one that has been the more enigmatic in terms of both history and theology.

Kind of strange, they taught us all this in terms of history, but they couldn't go into any of the theology at all, so it was a rather flat picture of what was going on. But some of those changes in leadership and the circumstances created seemed very interesting.

 

[Monk Brendan]

for one, my pastor and bishop say the same thing. for two, the loving thing to do to the heretic, is to point out the heresy.

and my confessor pulls his hair out in frustration because of me, but not because of my stance on Rome and those in her communion.

no need to take personal cheap shots, come on now.

Calling me a heretic, just because I have learned the stability of the Roman Church is just as cheap a shot--maybe more.

However, I have also heard of the instability of the Orthodox Churches here in America. I have heard of one monastic superior saying to his small flock, "I'm retiring, and the monastery building is up for sale. I'm going to live in the rectory. I have no idea what you will do, but you can't stay here. You have two weeks.

I've heard of several bishops who took this poor monk, shuttled him from pillar to post, promised ordination to the diaconate and priesthood, and then dropped him. Or let's talk about the Greek Archdiocese here in America that won't even allow a non-Greek into the building. Then there's a monastery that won't allow an Eastern Catholic Bishop to enter for a tour, and to join them in celebrating Vespers. There are many other stories that I could post, but you're right, I won't take any cheap shots.

May a gracious and loving God bless you richly

Christ is Risen!

 

[ArmyMatt]

Calling me a heretic, just because I have learned the stability of the Roman Church is just as cheap a shot--maybe more.

not a cheap shot if it's true.

However, I have also heard of the instability of the Orthodox Churches here in America. I have heard of one monastic superior saying to his small flock, "I'm retiring, and the monastery building is up for sale. I'm going to live in the rectory. I have no idea what you will do, but you can't stay here. You have two weeks.

that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. bad leadership is not the same as heresy or being in communion with a heretic.

I've heard of several bishops who took this poor monk, shuttled him from pillar to post, promised ordination to the diaconate and priesthood, and then dropped him.

see above, has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Or let's talk about the Greek Archdiocese here in America that won't even allow a non-Greek into the building.

as a non-Greek who has been to many a non Greek parish, a few monasteries, and their seminary, I know this is not true.

Then there's a monastery that won't allow an Eastern Catholic Bishop to enter for a tour, and to join them in celebrating Vespers.

if it's an Athonite monastery, this is true. no, non-Orthodox is allowed in their buildings, and they certainly would not allow one to serve. the Athonite one's are here only for the spiritual growth of the Orthodox.

There are many other stories that I could post, but you're right, I won't take any cheap shots.

I am sure you could, but none of them have to do with bad theology. as could I concerning those in communion with Rome, but I don't because that does not lead anywhere. this was about a theological error, not a leadership one.

[Staff edit].

 

[Monk Brendan]

as a non-Greek who has been to many a non Greek parish, a few monasteries, and their seminary, I know this is not true.

You misquoted--I said a non-Greek is not allowed to enter the building of a GREEK Church--even if they be Russian Orthodox already.

 

[jckstraw72]

You misquoted--I said a non-Greek is not allowed to enter the building of a GREEK Church--even if they be Russian Orthodox already.

that simply isn't true.

 

[Monk Brendan]

not a cheap shot if it's true.

Good Bye!

 

[Monk Brendan]

that simply isn't true.

It happened to ME. It also happened to Fr. Basil's father, Vladimir.

 

[Anhelyna]

That has not happened to me or my GodFather ! We were both warmly greeted by a Greek Bishop in his Cathedral and yes - he knew we were UGCC.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I'm not listening!

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

I'm not listening!

Perhaps you should. You are trying to ride two horses at the same time--which is inherently uncomfortable-- and then scold us Orthodox for preferring to ride just one and encouraging others to do the same. One cannot be Orthodox in communion with Rome.

I thought your comment about a monastery not allowing a Catholic bishop to co-celebrate was somewhat humorous. You cannot imagine. Having recently returned from Mt. Athos, I promise you it is not just one monastery but about 20 and they are many centuries old. Why they should feel obliged to allow non Orthodox to visit their private property, let alone celebrate behind the iconostasis, is mystifying.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Lord have mercy!

This is getting out of hand.

I'm not quite sure of the best way to handle it - folks, I'm not up for this at the moment.

Quite frankly, if a mod stumbles in here, there will likely be a clean-up, and posting against forum rules can possibly lead to staff action.

I would recommend editing your post if it goes against forum rules, which frankly since this is the Eastern Orthodox forum, it doesn't exist for criticizing EO. I actually believe that misunderstandings could be corrected and communication could benefit everyone, if they are open to it, but it needs to happen in St. Justin Martyr's.

My responsibility will include locking this thread temporarily if rules can't be followed, and that would increase the likelihood of staff involvement.

So please, let's follow the rules.

I really do strongly suggest that non-Orthodox edit posts which criticize Orthodoxy. You may make such posts in St. Justin's, but not in TAW proper.

I hope this is sufficient.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Christ is Risen!

 

[Anhelyna]

As the 'resident' EC on TAW - I back my sister Anastasia.

Please if you are not Orthodox - re-read the SoP and make sure that you do post in accordance with the SoP

To my mind - this has gone too far - it's an abuse of TAW's hospitality

 

[Dewi Sant]

This thread is now off topic surely?

 

[ArmyMatt]

You misquoted--I said a non-Greek is not allowed to enter the building of a GREEK Church--even if they be Russian Orthodox already.

and I should have said, I am a non-Greek and have entered Greek parishes. I was married in a Greek parish.

so either way, you are wrong.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Good Bye!

bye.....?

 

[All4Christ]

I was married in a Greek parish.

As was I It's a beautiful cathedral! I am forever grateful that they allowed us to use their parish while our parish was still in a small business condominium. (Now we celebrated my friend's beautiful wedding in our new parish on Sunday - our first in the new building. Incidentally, it was between a Roman Catholic and an Orthodox Christian. )

 

[All4Christ]

This thread is now off topic surely?

Just a tad

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

HONK! Your wrong!

In that case you accept doctrinal plurality in the One Church, which is even more against our beliefs.