Am I The Only One

[Francis Drake]

I gave PLENTY of OT Scriptures stating the Messiah would suffer, die, betrayal, crucified, tortured, garments divided, resurrected etc.......

deal with the truth.

People claim to today to be christians yet deny the Deity of Christ which is an oxymoron. They don't see it or deny its truth. Its all over the OT/NT just like the Suffering Messiah is all over both Testaments.

hope this helps !!!

Yawn. We've gone through this repeatedly.
I know there are countless scriptures pointing towards Jesus, but most only make sense when viewed in retrospect.
If they were clear in advance, why did nobody believe them back then, more to the point, why did the disciples not believe them even when Jesus spelled it out?

Probably the best description is found in Isaiah53, but it still leaves a lot of questions.

When Jesus returns, undoubtedly there will be many more scholars just like you, with the benefit of hindsight pointing out all the scriptures describing the manner of his second coming.
Meanwhile, despite the myriad of second coming scriptures, scholars still argue and invent countless variations of how it will happen.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Yawn. We've gone through this repeatedly.
I know there are countless scriptures pointing towards Jesus, but most only make sense when viewed in retrospect.
If they were clear in advance, why did nobody believe them back then, more to the point, why did the disciples not believe them even when Jesus spelled it out?

Probably the best description is found in Isaiah53, but it still leaves a lot of questions.

When Jesus returns, undoubtedly there will be many more scholars just like you, with the benefit of hindsight pointing out all the scriptures describing the manner of his second coming.
Meanwhile, despite the myriad of second coming scriptures, scholars still argue and invent countless variations of how it will happen.

Its no different than His 2nd Coming and all the warning signs Jesus and the Apostles have told us in Scripture so that we are without excuse. Most of the world and church will be caught off guard when it happens.

The point being there is no excuse for not knowing the truth in relation to His 1st or 2nd comings.

hope this helps !!!

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The Bible is full of descriptions of people as righteous. A righteous person does what God wants, and repents when he fails.

Jesus is about following him. Following means loving God and neighbor, and showing it in our lives. He talks about judgement a number of times, always based on our lives. Sometimes it’s things we do, sometimes it’s how we react to the Gospel.

I don’t believe either Jesus or Paul separated life into belief and action. Indeed pistis can be translated either faith or faithfulness because keeping the faith is at least in part about our actions being consistent with our beliefs.

What Jesus and Paul were against, though expressed very differently, was legalism, making religion a matter of following rules, or thinking that doing so was getting credit. Rather, for Jesus actions had to come from love, and for Paul from the Holy Spirit.

“But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. “ (Rom 7:6)

For Paul, the opposition to Law didn't mean that he was opposing belief and action, and valuing belief. It meant he was opposing a life based on a written code to a life based on the Holy Spirit.

Look carefully at Paul’s use of Abraham as a model for pistis. Abraham showed his faithfulness by relying on God’s promise.

It is precisely being a good person, in the sense of being someone who loves God and neighbor and is moved by the Holy Spirit, that constitutes one as a Christian.

Yes, a righteous man does as God desires, but are you forgetting we as true believers are declared righteous through our faith...as Romans 4:4-5 states...
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
We all have our sinful nature which is not to be used as a license for immorality, however this means we all stumble in many ways.

 

[hedrick]

Yes, a righteous man does as God desires, but are you forgetting we as true believers are declared righteous through our faith...as Romans 4:4-5 states...
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
We all have our sinful nature which is not to be used as a license for immorality, however this means we all stumble in many ways.

It's not just that a righteous man does as God desires. He lives as God desires. That is, it's not just their actions but what they're based on.

Pistis can just as well be translated faithfulness or loyalty. God considers loyalty to Jesus as being righteousness, because it's the basis of a faithful life. It doesn't earn God's grace. We still need forgiveness. But it marks us as his followers, who live in the Spirit. There is no contrast between belief and actions. The contrast is between faith and works of the Law, between life based on the Holy Spirit and life based on the written code. (Rom 7:6)

 

[SkyWriting]

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)

Judgment takes place after death
and time does not exist after death
so there is no "before" or "after" anything.

Once you are in God's presence the
past and future are one thing.

 

[JacksBratt]

That was said by Paul and / or Silas. Acts 16:31.

Thanks... you are correct.

 

[JacksBratt]

The Bible is full of descriptions of people as righteous. A righteous person does what God wants, and repents when he fails.

Jesus is about following him. Following means loving God and neighbor, and showing it in our lives. He talks about judgement a number of times, always based on our lives. Sometimes it’s things we do, sometimes it’s how we react to the Gospel.

I don’t believe either Jesus or Paul separated life into belief and action. Indeed pistis can be translated either faith or faithfulness because keeping the faith is at least in part about our actions being consistent with our beliefs.

What Jesus and Paul were against, though expressed very differently, was legalism, making religion a matter of following rules, or thinking that doing so was getting credit. Rather, for Jesus actions had to come from love, and for Paul from the Holy Spirit.

“But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. “ (Rom 7:6)

For Paul, the opposition to Law didn't mean that he was opposing belief and action, and valuing belief. It meant he was opposing a life based on a written code to a life based on the Holy Spirit.

Look carefully at Paul’s use of Abraham as a model for pistis. Abraham showed his faithfulness by relying on God’s promise.

It is precisely being a good person, in the sense of being someone who loves God and neighbor and is moved by the Holy Spirit, that constitutes one as a Christian.

Show me where a good person, who did not repent, has gained salvation by their own works.

I did not say that those who are saved should not be good people and strive to be good people.. I take that as being a given.

What I said was that your own works can never save you..

Only accepting Christ can.

So.... what actually condemns you is denial of Christ. Everyone will have the time to accept or deny Christ. Those that accept Him.. have eternal life..

But, nothing you can do.. no matter how nice, generous, unselfish, giving, kind or whatever... you are.. salvation only comes from accepting that you are a sinner and believing in Christ and His work on the cross.

 

[JacksBratt]

quote Roman 2:6 and Pslam 62:12, then follow it up with Matt 7:22

You cannot "Cherry pick" scripture. Look at the whole chapter of Romans 2... You need to look at the entire book...

What does Romans chapter 2 mean?

Book Summary
The book of Romans is the New Testament's longest, most structured, and most detailed description of Christian theology. Paul lays out the core of the gospel message: salvation by grace alone through faith alone. His intent is to explain the good news of Jesus Christ in accurate and clear terms. As part of this effort, Paul addresses the conflicts between law and grace, between Jews and Gentiles, and between sin and righteousness. As is common in his writing, Paul closes out his letter with a series of practical applications.

 

[JacksBratt]

It's still useless, because in the end there is no actual benefit. Living in whatever negative world is completely meaningless because of the absolute end result.

Well, there is benefit..
We are rewarded in paradise for our works.. So there is that.

Also, in this life, believer or non believer, life just goes much better for those that have morals and treat others well.... for the most part..... be a cruel, cantankerous, rude selfish and immoral person... you will probably spend your days alone... Believer or non believer.

 

[JacksBratt]

Your entire posts spells it out. If doing good means nothing and what is important is the worship of a deity, then logically he doesn't care what you do.

That is faulty logic..

Doing good does nothing.. to save you. You cannot "DO" enough to pay the dept of your sin... Only Christs death and resurrection can pay that price.

However, being good... is how we shine for Christ and He lives through us. It is evidence of His living in our hearts...

If he did, why would he damn someone and just completely ignore all the good he/she has done to others?

For the simple fact that the dept of our sin... is only payable by death.. Death is the price of sin.. so..

Born once... die twice (physical and spiritual death)
Born twice (physical birth and spiritual birth to Christ) die once... only physical death.

It is always there.. to pay the dept of sin.. one must die.. However, Christ died for you so you could have eternal life which is beyond any ability of your own.

He is also titled: the Righteous Judge for a reason. If he just auto-damns someone due to not giving him the special attention known as worship, then isn't judging anything.

When your salvation is concerned... Satan is your accuser.. He will state... "This is a sinner"

And, he will be correct because every single human who ever lived... is a sinner.

Christ will look at you and say:

"Yep... they are a sinner" But.. what He will do is tell His Father.. "This person has accepted My gift of salvation.. By their faith in My death.. they are pardoned. They are seen righteous by My blood. They are worthy, not by their work but by Mine. They have eternal life"

Or.. He will say:

"Yep, this person is a sinner and denied my pardon. He is unworthy and sent for punishment of eternal death".

God, the judge, will pardon those who accepted Christ. They are seen as righteous.
God will judge all those who did not accept Christ..unrighteous and found guilty as charged.

At the end, your illustration and idea of God is more similiar to every dictator in history - he is very petty, unreasonable, and insecure.

What is God unreasonable about? Every human is a sinner and guilty of death.. Yet God sent His son to pay their debt. That's pretty generous..

Then, He makes obtaining this gift of a pardon as easy as accepting that they are guilty.. total truth... and asking for a pardon based on Christ paying the penalty while He was innocent..

I see no unreasonableness here.

What is God insecure about?

God created everything.. He worries about nothing. He is all powerful..

So, tell me of this insecurity.

This whole view of someone not being good (enough) because he isn't a christian is a big reason why people detract and have a resentment for Christianity.

This is a lie of Satan... perpetuated by Christians who think that they are good enough and unbelievers who think that they are not good enough.

Nobody is good enough..

Even Christians..... are not good enough..

Christians cannot boast about their salvation as if they are better... They did nothing to achieve their salvation. They were and are powerless to achieve salvation.

True Christians know this and they are humble enough to say that they are not worthy of salvation but are loved enough by their creator to be given it.... because of His work... not theirs.

 

[Cis.jd]

That is faulty logic..

Doing good does nothing.. to save you. You cannot "DO" enough to pay the dept of your sin... Only Christs death and resurrection can pay that price.

However, being good... is how we shine for Christ and He lives through us. It is evidence of His living in our hearts...

It is faulty logic, but it is a mirror of your argument.

Doing nothing to save you, then by result it's completely meaningless. No one denies the second sentence, in where it is all of Christs merits but the coming of Christ was showing of God's mercy. He isn't a stuck up deity who is that in need of attention that any form of good deeds is just disregarded.

What is God unreasonable about? Every human is a sinner and guilty of death.. Yet God sent His son to pay their debt. That's pretty generous..

Then, He makes obtaining this gift of a pardon as easy as accepting that they are guilty.. total truth... and asking for a pardon based on Christ paying the penalty while He was innocent..

I see no unreasonableness here.

What is God insecure about?

God created everything.. He worries about nothing. He is all powerful..

So, tell me of this insecurity.

It's highly unreasonable. You ever heard of Nepotism, in where a worker does hard work and does his/her job yet all efforts are disregarded because the boss' son is given the position because of just being related. That isn't fair. In context, it is the same with this. You have a person who does good, even more than a believer, the believer hasn't done anything significant to do good - yet in the end the person perishes for all eternity while the other guy doesn't. You see that as fair?

This is a lie of Satan... perpetuated by Christians who think that they are good enough and unbelievers who think that they are not good enough.

Nobody is good enough..

Even Christians..... are not good enough..

Christians cannot boast about their salvation as if they are better... They did nothing to achieve their salvation. They were and are powerless to achieve salvation.

True Christians know this and they are humble enough to say that they are not worthy of salvation but are loved enough by their creator to be given it.... because of His work... not theirs.

But this is the illustration you gave about God. Your entire description is the same as dictator; someone who is so shallow, so insecure, and self-obsessed. That is more aligned with satan than it is with God, and it's because of these ideas that others refuse to become christian.

 

[Cis.jd]

You cannot "Cherry pick" scripture. Look at the whole chapter of Romans 2... You need to look at the entire book...

What does Romans chapter 2 mean?

Book Summary
The book of Romans is the New Testament's longest, most structured, and most detailed description of Christian theology. Paul lays out the core of the gospel message: salvation by grace alone through faith alone. His intent is to explain the good news of Jesus Christ in accurate and clear terms. As part of this effort, Paul addresses the conflicts between law and grace, between Jews and Gentiles, and between sin and righteousness. As is common in his writing, Paul closes out his letter with a series of practical applications.

Sure, but attaching that verse from Rome, then that entire chapter does make it clear that good deeds are included. You are the one cherry picking. That verse is still included therefore an additional necessity, if not then what do we do with the good deeds talked about in there, just throw it away? That is why it faith+works. You are referencing sentences about Faith being stated exclusively yet leaving out the references of works in that chapter, therefore it is you who is cherry picking.

You have more than 1 verse stating works, while other verses about faith. Since both exist in the Bible, some times emphasized independently in a specific verse, then logically neither one are to be included.

 

[JacksBratt]

.

 

[JacksBratt]

It is faulty logic, but it is a mirror of your argument.

Doing nothing to save you, then by result it's completely meaningless. No one denies the second sentence, in where it is all of Christs merits but the coming of Christ was showing of God's mercy. He isn't a stuck up deity who is that in need of attention that any form of good deeds is just disregarded.




It's highly unreasonable. You ever heard of Nepotism, in where a worker does hard work and does his/her job yet all efforts are disregarded because the boss' son is given the position because of just being related. That isn't fair. In context, it is the same with this. You have a person who does good, even more than a believer, the believer hasn't done anything significant to do good - yet in the end the person perishes for all eternity while the other guy doesn't. You see that as fair?




But this is the illustration you gave about God. Your entire description is the same as dictator; someone who is so shallow, so insecure, and self-obsessed. That is more aligned with satan than it is with God, and it's because of these ideas that others refuse to become christian.

Nope...


If someone robs a store with a gun.. they will face the law.

No matter how many good things they do or how polite they are in the court.. No matter how much the judge feels for this person..even cares for this person.... they are bound by the standard punishment for the crime.

The penalty for sin is death.. period.

God has set in place that in order for someone to have eternal life, they must repent of their sins and accept Christ...

Christs death pays for my sin.. Nothing I can do or no matter how nice I am, I cannot help my self.. that is just the way it is.

God cannot just save you because you were a good boy.

 

[JacksBratt]

Sure, but attaching that verse from Rome, then that entire chapter does make it clear that good deeds are included. You are the one cherry picking. That verse is still included therefore an additional necessity, if not then what do we do with the good deeds talked about in there, just throw it away? That is why it faith+works. You are referencing sentences about Faith being stated exclusively yet leaving out the references of works in that chapter, therefore it is you who is cherry picking.

You have more than 1 verse stating works, while other verses about faith. Since both exist in the Bible, some times emphasized independently in a specific verse, then logically neither one are to be included.

My post was not "one verse" it was a synopsis of the theme of the entire chapter.

The theme is that you are saved by faith... you will be judged as you judge and your works will not save you.

 

[Cis.jd]

My post was not "one verse" it was a synopsis of the theme of the entire chapter.

The theme is that you are saved by faith... you will be judged as you judge and your works will not save you.

But it fails to address/acknowledge the part about good deeds. I did not just give Romans either. You are throwing away other details and just sticking to one side of the message.

 

[Cis.jd]

Nope...


If someone robs a store with a gun.. they will face the law.

No matter how many good things they do or how polite they are in the court.. No matter how much the judge feels for this person..even cares for this person.... they are bound by the standard punishment for the crime.

Good job giving an example in where the person is doing work (robbing a store = work), you've made my point exactly. You gave an example of bad deeds being done with action. Due to his works he will be judged by the law.

Now lets fix your example in the same context of your arguments, where you have a robber who believes/aligns with an establishment while the person he holds hostage doesn't believe in an establishment.. and in the end it's the hostage who goes to jail while the Robber goes free - because it isn't about what they did but because of what they believe, is this right?

 

[JacksBratt]

But it fails to address/acknowledge the part about good deeds. I did not just give Romans either. You are throwing away other details and just sticking to one side of the message.

Good deeds for those that enter eternity are what we are rewarded for and get crowns and such..



Good deeds, for those that reject Christ, will make you friends and keep you out of jail.. here in this life.. but you are still going to have to pay for your sins...which is death.. eternal death.

The only way you achieve eternal life.. is by death.. Regardless of how nice you are.

So, you can pay for your sins with your own death.. or... with Christ's death.

 

[JacksBratt]

Good job giving an example in where the person is doing work (robbing a store = work), you've made my point exactly. You gave an example of bad deeds being done with action. Due to his works he will be judged by the law.

Now lets fix your example in the same context of your arguments, where you have a robber who believes/aligns with an establishment while the person he holds hostage doesn't believe in an establishment.. and in the end it's the hostage who goes to jail while the Robber goes free - because it isn't about what they did but because of what they believe, is this right?

OK here is the real example.. as a human.. have you lied? have you coveted? have you disrespected your parents? have you ever stolen something? Have you ever taken the Lords name in vane?

If so... you are not alone.. Every single human has sinned.

Since you have sinned.. you must pay the penalty..

The penalty is death..Nothing else is enough.

So, doing good works is good, nice, appreciated.. but.. will not save you. Will not pay your dept.

Unless you are perfect and without sin.. you will have to die for your sins.

OR... accept the truth.. Christ was sinless and died for your sins.

Want a pardon... ask..

 

[JacksBratt]

Now lets fix your example in the same context of your arguments, where you have a robber who believes/aligns with an establishment while the person he holds hostage doesn't believe in an establishment.. and in the end it's the hostage who goes to jail while the Robber goes free - because it isn't about what they did but because of what they believe, is this right?

no. I don't know what you mean.. at all.

Can you give a better explanation?