Am I The Only One

[Cis.jd]

OK.. yes.. morals are meaningless..when salvation is concerned.


Having great morals.. Is not going to forgive you from your sin. Even those with impeccable morals... are sinners and need to bend the knee to Christ and humble their hearts to admit that they need His work on the cross to save them.

As Christians, however, people are supposed to be able to watch us and, with no other information... see that we let Christ shine through us.

But.. we are humans and we still sin and many of the sins are that of moral transgressions.

Children of God.. do not always have perfect morals.

Ok, so your illustration of God is that he only cares about attention and not how others treat each other. That sounds like satan because that is a high definition of someone with an amount of pride that his levels of insecurity result to something horrific. There is no good - no need for good.. because you just have to appease. This is the same reasoning behind every mass killer dictator in history.

If this is all correct, then going to heaven is actually worse than hell because who would want to be with a dictator for all eternity?

 

[April_Rose]

Question is... If you believe in God, believe in a creator, believe that you are a sinner, are worried about hell..... Why wait to find out?

Really.. it's not that big of a deal... if you're concerned about hell... do something about it.. It takes less than a minute to give yourself to Christ.

Are there really people that are living life.. believing in God and hell and sin and damnation.. that are that stubborn to be saying.. "Nah... He'll accept me. I'll wait till I'm dead"?

Why are you telling me all of this I've already done all that. That's not what I was saying either.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Understandable. The only thing I don't like so far is when people tell me Christians shouldn't believe what I believe and that I shouldn't believe it. It's like since when is any of that your business? All that this thread was created for is the fact that I'm curious if others believe like me. Not asking for opinions from the peanut gallery on whether or not I should believe it because that just gets irritating and annoying.

You are on a discussion group...all views may enlighten.

 

[April_Rose]

You are on a discussion group...all views may enlighten.

I'm not wishing to be enlightened on whether or not I should believe what I do though. Ah well, not going to listen to all of that anyways so,..

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

You still don't get it do you? Knowledge of the future death of the Messiah was not relevant to the salvation of the OT saints!

Today you can look back and see it all after it was fulfilled, exactly as the disciples did.
But the OT saints were oblivious to the full interpretation of the prophecies.

If you believe otherwise, show me one scripture that proves they understood in advance..

I will let Jesus own testimony speak for itself. You sound like Peter below with your denial of the biblical facts and predictions of the suffering Messiah.

Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

hope this helps !!!

 

[JacksBratt]

Ok, so your illustration of God is that he only cares about attention and not how others treat each other.

What God cares about.. and what is necessary for salvation.. are two different things.

What are the two great commandments that He left us with?

Love the Lord your God with all your heart.
Treat your neighbor as yourself.

All the commandments are tied to these two.

God is also a jealous God.. Why is it not a sin for God to be jealous? Because He is the greatest.. by far.. so.. anyone taking attention from Him.. is wrong.

Does He only care about attention? I don't think so.. He loved every human so much.. that He came down as a human and died for you and me.

Of course He cares the way we treat each other.. How can you shine His light, through you, if you are being cruel? Of course this is not what He wants.

That sounds like satan because that is a high definition of someone with an amount of pride that his levels of insecurity result to something horrific. There is no good - no need for good.. because you just have to appease. This is the same reasoning behind every mass killer dictator in history.

Satan is wrong to have pride of being great.. It did not come from himself.. it came from the one who created him.

We are wrong to have pride as well..

But.. God.. has all the rights in this universe to have pride.. He is the greatest.. Pride for him is just fact... Pride for us is a selfish lie.

If this is all correct, then going to heaven is actually worse than hell because who would want to be with a dictator for all eternity?

What did God dictate? You are free to do what you want, say what you want, believe what you want, worship what you want.

If you don't want to acknowledge that He is your creator, savior and loves you and has given you the ability, through Him, to have eternal life... then....................don't.

It has been said that God doesn't send us to hell... In fact, He busted down a door for us to go through to get to heaven.. If you want to deny it.. so be it..

Why would He force you to go somewhere that you don't want to go.. be.... live and worship someone that you don't love.

 

[JacksBratt]

Why are you telling me all of this I've already done all that. That's not what I was saying either.

My question still remains...Who is worried about this?

Unless it's a person who is already saved.. hoping for some lost loved one that refuses to accept Christ.

I know. I have loved ones that don't get it.. don't believe, don't have faith.. Would I like it if they could have one last chance? Of course...

But, that's not what the bible says.

Curious.. How many humans, upon death and facing the creator.. would turn down eternal life?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Have you read some of Jesus's retorts recently?
!

Have you read all these prophecies fulfilled from the OT in the NT ?

Ever read Evidence that demands a verdict by Josh McDowell ?

Below is the evidence you are ignoring.

His Passion
Rejection by Jews and Gentiles: Psalms 2:1; 22:12; 41:5; 56:5; 69:8; 118:22-23; Isaiah 6:9-10; 8:14; 29:13; 53:1; 65:2
Persecution: Psalms 22:6; 35:7, 12; 56:5; 71:10; 109:2; Isaiah 49:7; 53:3
Triumphal entry: Psalms 8:2; 118:25-26; Zechariah 9:9
Betrayal by friend: Psalms 41:9; 55:13; Zechariah 13:6
False accusation: Psalms 2:1-2; 27:12; 35:11; 109:2
Silence under accusation: Psalm 38:13; Isaiah 53:7
Mocking: Psalms 22:7-8, 16; 109:25

His Resurrection
Psalms 2:7; 16:8-10; 30:3; 41:10; 118:17

His Ascension
Psalms 16:11; 24:7; 68:18; 110:1; 118:19

hope this helps !!!

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I'm not wishing to be enlightened on whether or not I should believe what I do though. Ah well, not going to listen to all of that anyways so,..

Again, you are on a discussion board and so either keep what you do not want challenged to yourself or be brave and defend what you believe or just go on past those posts you don't wish to answer...they'll get the hint.

 

[Cis.jd]

What God cares about.. and what is necessary for salvation.. are two different things.

But you've been arguing that there is nothing that grants salvation other than acceptance.

What are the two great commandments that He left us with?

Love the Lord your God with all your heart.
Treat your neighbor as yourself.

Yes, he did. These are two of the greatest commands, now if one non believer is following this while an actual believer doesn't, then the unbeliever is unknowingly following Christ while the later isn't (as much as he/she thinks). However, based on everything you just posted these two commandments are completely useless.

Does He only care about attention? I don't think so.. He loved every human so much.. that He came down as a human and died for you and me.
Of course He cares the way we treat each other.. How can you shine His light, through you, if you are being cruel? Of course this is not what He wants.

But if he doesn't care. Your entire posts made it clear how completely unnecessary treating others is if there is no attention/acceptance given.

Why would He force you to go somewhere that you don't want to go.. be.... live and worship someone that you don't love.

In other perspective, it is forceful. I never asked to be born/made into this fallen world in where I have this ultimatum to worship a specific deity other wise i'm going to suffer unimaginable torment for all eternity. I never met Adam and Eve, why do I have to share their blame. They are the ones that ate the apple, not me.. so I am just made in where my happiness and the happiness i give to others is all meaningless because if I don't make this god happy, then I die. How is this not forced?

 

[Francis Drake]

Another fallacy.

Try Reading through the ENTIRE book of Hebrews as EVERYTHING pointed to His coming via the sacrificial system as the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world.

next.................

Goodness me, you really don't get it do you.
Without a doubt the book of Hebrews shows everything you say, but not one word of Hebrews states the OT saints understood those facts back in their time.
Show me anywhere in scripture that states the OT believers understood the Messiah would have to die for their sins.
Please stop giving scriptures that show the apostles understood these things looking back, they prove nothing whatsoever about the OT believers.

 

[Francis Drake]

I will let Jesus own testimony speak for itself. You sound like Peter below with your denial of the biblical facts and predictions of the suffering Messiah.

Mark 8:31-33
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

33 But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

hope this helps !!!

Again, your scripture references don't help your cause one iota.
In fact they prove entirely what I've been saying all along.
At that stage, Peter was still an OT believer who had heard the scriptures many times, not just from Jesus.
Despite Jesus expounding his coming death, Peter still refuses to believe him. Peter was set on a Messianic hero to drive the Romans out.

 

[Francis Drake]

Have you read all these prophecies fulfilled from the OT in the NT ?

Ever read Evidence that demands a verdict by Josh McDowell ?

Below is the evidence you are ignoring.

His Passion
Rejection by Jews and Gentiles: Psalms 2:1; 22:12; 41:5; 56:5; 69:8; 118:22-23; Isaiah 6:9-10; 8:14; 29:13; 53:1; 65:2
Persecution: Psalms 22:6; 35:7, 12; 56:5; 71:10; 109:2; Isaiah 49:7; 53:3
Triumphal entry: Psalms 8:2; 118:25-26; Zechariah 9:9
Betrayal by friend: Psalms 41:9; 55:13; Zechariah 13:6
False accusation: Psalms 2:1-2; 27:12; 35:11; 109:2
Silence under accusation: Psalm 38:13; Isaiah 53:7
Mocking: Psalms 22:7-8, 16; 109:25

His Resurrection
Psalms 2:7; 16:8-10; 30:3; 41:10; 118:17

His Ascension
Psalms 16:11; 24:7; 68:18; 110:1; 118:19

hope this helps !!!

What is the matter with you?
I don't deny any of these verses whatsoever. As I keep saying, the OT believers didn't comprehend from them that their Messiah would have to die for their sins, Peter and the other apostles being ample proof of that fact.
Despite posting oodles of scriptures, you haven't shown me a single verse to prove the OT believers did understand.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Goodness me, you really don't get it do you.
Without a doubt the book of Hebrews shows everything you say, but not one word of Hebrews states the OT saints understood those facts back in their time.
Show me anywhere in scripture that states the OT believers understood the Messiah would have to die for their sins.
Please stop giving scriptures that show the apostles understood these things looking back, they prove nothing whatsoever about the OT believers.

I gave PLENTY of OT Scriptures stating the Messiah would suffer, die, betrayal, crucified, tortured, garments divided, resurrected etc.......

deal with the truth.

People claim to today to be christians yet deny the Deity of Christ which is an oxymoron. They don't see it or deny its truth. Its all over the OT/NT just like the Suffering Messiah is all over both Testaments.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

What is the matter with you?
I don't deny any of these verses whatsoever. As I keep saying, the OT believers didn't comprehend from them that their Messiah would have to die for their sins, Peter and the other apostles being ample proof of that fact.
Despite posting oodles of scriptures, you haven't shown me a single verse to prove the OT believers did understand.

Read Hebrews 11 as they sure did.

 

[JacksBratt]

But you've been arguing that there is nothing that grants salvation other than acceptance.

What did Christ say? "Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

Nowhere does it say that being a good person can bring salvation.

In fact.. there is no amount of good behavior that any one person can do to earn their salvation.

Yes, he did. These are two of the greatest commands, now if one non believer is following this while an actual believer doesn't, then the unbeliever is unknowingly following Christ while the later isn't (as much as he/she thinks). However, based on everything you just posted these two commandments are completely useless.

The commandments are a guide, a road map, to how we should behave when trying to emulate Christ.

There are many many people who are great people and follow the commandments and emulate Christ.. but.. they deny Him.

These commandments are not "useless". Can you imagine a world without them.. Well, come to think of it.. we are living in a world that is deeply corrupt due to this very fact..

But if he doesn't care. Your entire posts made it clear how completely unnecessary treating others is if there is no attention/acceptance given.

Where did I say that He doesn't care?

Morals and even emulating Christ is not going to save your soul.

However, God still cares for every single human.. Remember.. He sees the little sparrow fall?

God feeds the animals.. the least of His creation.. How much more does He care for you.

“Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, yet I will not forget you. Isaiah 49.15

In other perspective, it is forceful. I never asked to be born/made into this fallen world in where I have this ultimatum to worship a specific deity other wise i'm going to suffer unimaginable torment for all eternity. I never met Adam and Eve, why do I have to share their blame. They are the ones that ate the apple, not me.. so I am just made in where my happiness and the happiness i give to others is all meaningless because if I don't make this god happy, then I die. How is this not forced?

Wha wha wha...

Ever had a child? They say similar whining things...

If you don't like being alive, and you didn't ask to be born and you don't like the fact that you have to... what is it again? That laborious, difficult, arduous, painful, tiring, monotonous work to achieve salvation....

OH... wait... what's this.. All you have to do is acknowledge that your a sinner and ask Christ to save you.. Then, it's just life like any other moral person..

So... what's your beef? Life is too tough? Salvation is to hard to achieve? Oh, you're so hard done by... and yet all you have to do is ask and you are removed from the second death..

It's like a bunch of kids standing in a mud puddle crying.. and then refusing when someone goes to lift them out.. Stumbling around trying to do it on their own.. boots getting stuck and pulled off...

But, you are entitled to your view.. as am I...

I just see it as a no brainer... No work, no fuss, no muss. Just ask and it will be given unto you.

Sorry for the rant.. but.. it really ticks me off when someone says.. "I never asked for this" when the don't need to lift a finger to fix it..

Standing on a desert Island whining when they just have to walk up the gangplank and onto a yacht to get a ride home.

 

[hedrick]

What did Christ say? "Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

That was said by Paul and / or Silas. Acts 16:31.

 

[hedrick]

Nowhere does it say that being a good person can bring salvation.

The Bible is full of descriptions of people as righteous. A righteous person does what God wants, and repents when he fails.

Jesus is about following him. Following means loving God and neighbor, and showing it in our lives. He talks about judgement a number of times, always based on our lives. Sometimes it’s things we do, sometimes it’s how we react to the Gospel.

I don’t believe either Jesus or Paul separated life into belief and action. Indeed pistis can be translated either faith or faithfulness because keeping the faith is at least in part about our actions being consistent with our beliefs.

What Jesus and Paul were against, though expressed very differently, was legalism, making religion a matter of following rules, or thinking that doing so was getting credit. Rather, for Jesus actions had to come from love, and for Paul from the Holy Spirit.

“But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. “ (Rom 7:6)

For Paul, the opposition to Law didn't mean that he was opposing belief and action, and valuing belief. It meant he was opposing a life based on a written code to a life based on the Holy Spirit.

Look carefully at Paul’s use of Abraham as a model for pistis. Abraham showed his faithfulness by relying on God’s promise.

It is precisely being a good person, in the sense of being someone who loves God and neighbor and is moved by the Holy Spirit, that constitutes one as a Christian.

 

[Cis.jd]

What did Christ say? "Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".

Nowhere does it say that being a good person can bring salvation.

quote Roman 2:6 and Pslam 62:12, then follow it up with Matt 7:22

The commandments are a guide, a road map, to how we should behave when trying to emulate Christ.

There are many many people who are great people and follow the commandments and emulate Christ.. but.. they deny Him.

These commandments are not "useless". Can you imagine a world without them.. Well, come to think of it.. we are living in a world that is deeply corrupt due to this very fact..

It's still useless, because in the end there is no actual benefit. Living in whatever negative world is completely meaningless because of the absolute end result.

Where did I say that He doesn't care?

Your entire posts spells it out. If doing good means nothing and what is important is the worship of a deity, then logically he doesn't care what you do. If he did, why would he damn someone and just completely ignore all the good he/she has done to others? He is also titled: the Righteous Judge for a reason. If he just auto-damns someone due to not giving him the special attention known as worship, then isn't judging anything.

At the end, your illustration and idea of God is more similiar to every dictator in history - he is very petty, unreasonable, and insecure. This whole view of someone not being good (enough) because he isn't a christian is a big reason why people detract and have a resentment for Christianity.

 

[hedrick]

I am not convinced, however, that being justified before God, i.e. living as described in the previous posting Am I The Only One, entirely describes salvation.

Yes, a follower of Christ will be saved. But salvation also involves God’s mercy and forgiveness. Examples of damnation in the Bible, do not involve people who sin too much or who didn’t manage to repent after their last moral sin. Rather, it involves people who are fundamentally opposed to God and his purposes.

In the Rev, it’s real enemies of the faith that end up in the pit. In 1 Cor 1:15 it’s those who are part of the powers opposing God who are destroyed before everyone is incorporated into Christ.

For others, 1 Cor 3:12 and Jesus’ teachings do talk about a judgement, but they survive after passing through fire.

Remember, Jesus didn't come just to tell people how to avoid hell. He said his job was to establish the Kingdom now. Much of his teaching is about how to make that happen. There will be judgement for those who don't respond to his call, but also forgiveness.