Am I The Only One

[hedrick]

This is a protected area for discussing Universalism.

My apologies. I looked, and thought it was a different forum. I agree that Rom 5:18-19 seems to point that way.

You might find the following interesting: http://cdn.theologicalstudies.net/52/52.2/52.2.2.pdf

This is an interesting attempt to set up a mediating position, in which God's purpose is universal, but the freedom of people to reject him is respected. The author hopes for universal salvation, and believes it's a real possibility, but is unwilling to state that it's guaranteed. This seems to be a common position in the Eastern church. He says it's now common among Catholic theologians. Many mainline Protestants are simply universalist, but Barth seems closer to this article than flatly universalist.

I find Paul's thought to be generally universalist. Not just Rom 5, but particularly 1 Cor 15. However Jesus also seems to see damnation as a real threat. While much of his judgement is probably aimed at lazy servants, and need not indicate final rejection, it's hard to understand all of it that way. Indeed the weak point for universalism, even of the hopeful kind suggested here, always seems to me that it requires somewhat dubious exegesis of the Synoptics. It's possible that Paul simply disagrees with the Synoptics, or at the very least Matthew. (The other two could more easily be understood as talking about judgement that may turn out to be hypothetical. Matthew not so much.) This article seems to me the best way at taking both seriously.

But please remember that the OP is from someone who I believe is more conventional theologically, and is interested in inclusivism, not universalism. I think one can find a basis for the salvation of some non-Christians without accepting the signs that all may well be saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

You might find the following interesting: http://cdn.theologicalstudies.net/52/52.2/52.2.2.pdf

Thanks fprthe link. I'll check it out.

 

[hedrick]

My largest criticism of Sachs' article, and of much of the discussion in CF by those defending eternal damnation, is the claim that damnation is self-chosen, and not a punishment from God. I don't think this is true to the Bible. Judgement is God's action in making things right. The destruction of evil is his action. You can reasonably argue that it's a human decision to get caught up in that, but the idea that the punishment is simply isolation from God, implied by human decision, and not the result of anything imposed by God, seems not to be consistent with the whole Scriptural concept of judgement, and with specific descriptions of it.

Since the final triumph of God seems inconsistent with torture continuing somewhere in the basement, I consider the alternative to universal salvation to be annihilation. The NT passages about fire, etc, are based on OT images, and those are all images of destruction, not eternal torture. If 1 Cor 15 doesn't teach universalism for humans, it is most likely that those not saved are included with the Powers that are destroyed in 15:24.

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

Question: What was "all scripture" at the time that was written?

I believe God influenced the making of the Bible in a way that it contains the absolute truth only. Even though at that time only the OT existed as "scripture" I am certain that God had planned the whole Bible beforehand already so that this verse about "all scripture" includes the NT as well. God bless

 

[Sabertooth]

There is a biblical position for all three views of the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

Looking at the rest of your posts in this thread, which have you concluded?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

What do you make of these?

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

You don't say how you think they relate, but guessing...
Yes, am aware of these passages. Though God bound all men over to disobedience He is requiring turning to Him in repentance for forgiveness and mercy...read the context.
Yes, there is salvation and grace for all mankind b/c Jesus redeemed mankind. We are still under wrath if we have not seen fit to turn to Him for forgiveness and then for us to bring forth fruits of repentance.

Don't fool yourself, we must see a need for and feel the need for our repentance to seek and receive mercy and forgiveness.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Something to consider.
We are taught to love our enemies. (vs 44) This is a godly characteristic. (vs 48)
What should we expect God to do to his enemies then? Love, or hate and torture?

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

You are hunt and pecking for snippets of God's salvation plan which might fit the bill for a way out of His clearly laid out plan.
God is love; His ways are just and righteous. We are wicked by nature and at times cannot accept His ways as right ways.
II Peter 3:9:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The Lord does not hold the unrepentant guiltless...
Exodus 34:6-7:
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished;
Nahum 1:2-3:
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God;
the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The Lord takes vengeance on his foes
and vents his wrath against his enemies.
3 The Lord is slow to anger but great in power;
the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.

 

[RushMAN]

Consider this.

John 5:25
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

I disagree that it means dead people as is a modern take and means spiritually dead. The problem is the idea of universalism didn't come around till Scripture aloe became a thing. Universalism is not an real Christian position

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe God influenced the making of the Bible in a way that it contains the absolute truth only. Even though at that time only the OT existed as "scripture" I am certain that God had planned the whole Bible beforehand already so that this verse about "all scripture" includes the NT as well. God bless

Well, that would be convenient. But certainly not what it meant to those this was originally written to.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Question: What was "all scripture" at the time that was written?

 

[Saint Steven]

Looking at the rest of your posts in this thread, which have you concluded?

I conclude that all three views are biblical. I personally favor Universal Restoration. The only view with a happy ending.

Saint Steven said: ↑
There is a biblical position for all three views of the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

 

[Saint Steven]

You are hunt and pecking for snippets of God's salvation plan which might fit the bill for a way out of His clearly laid out plan.
God is love; His ways are just and righteous. We are wicked by nature and at times cannot accept His ways as right ways.
II Peter 3:9:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The Lord does not hold the unrepentant guiltless...
Exodus 34:6-7:
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished;
Nahum 1:2-3:
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God;
the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The Lord takes vengeance on his foes
and vents his wrath against his enemies.
3 The Lord is slow to anger but great in power;
the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[Saint Steven]

I disagree that it means dead people as is a modern take and means spiritually dead. The problem is the idea of universalism didn't come around till Scripture aloe became a thing. Universalism is not an real Christian position

No, Universalism was the leading doctrinal position on the final judgment in the early church. Four of the six original theology schools were Universalist.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[Saint Steven]

I disagree that it means dead people as is a modern take and means spiritually dead. The problem is the idea of universalism didn't come around till Scripture aloe became a thing. Universalism is not an real Christian position

Yes, but... It certainly applies to the Harrowing of Hell.

 

[RushMAN]

No, Universalism was the leading doctrinal position on the final judgment in the early church. Four of the six original theology schools were Universalist.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Saw the Wiki too and I really don't cotton to that interpretation. While we can hope all will be saved the reality is there will be people that burn of their own free will. Universalism is a fanasty

Yes, but... It certainly applies to the Harrowing of Hell.

Nope

 

[Saint Steven]

While we can hope all will be saved the reality is there will be people that burn of their own free will.

No one burns of their own free will. If you put your hand on a hot stove, there is only one thing your will is telling you, get your hand off that hot stove.

 

[RushMAN]

No one burns of their own free will. If you put your hand on a hot stove, there is only one thing your will is telling you, get your hand off that hot stove.

Sorry no. You can put your hand on a stove if you want to and get burned. God will not force anyone into Heaven as universalist want. We will never agree.I see universal as a heresy and makes Christ coming of no effect and you like it.

 

[mlepfitjw]

People have free will. They can choose God or not.

There are only two places to go after this life.

You have either chosen to believe in God, and His Son, and gain eternal life with him in the Heavenly Jerusalem because of faith, and loving others.

You have chosen to reject the belief in God, and want nothing to do with Jesus (The Lamb) who saved everyone from their sin (already); however you still go up to the new city called Heavenly Jerusalem. You are just outside in the darkness, outside of the city, and you can live in that darkness for as long as you desire.

Then you have other believers of the faith you believe people go burn in hell or whatever modern christian view is out there, or decided biblically it is a fact.

Regardless of the situation, we must remember that is about the Good News Gospel of Christ Jesus our Salvation, who loved us enough to not say no to God and not die. Instead said, not my will but your will father, and forgive them for they not know what they do, and died for the whole world sins. Not just our own.

@Saint Steven @RushMAN

 

[Saint Steven]

Sorry no. You can put your hand on a stove if you want to and get burned. God will not force anyone into Heaven as universalist want. We will never agree.I see universal as a heresy and makes Christ coming of no effect and you like it.

Wow. I have heard this backwards logic so many times.
The idea that people will willing go to hell because God will not force anyone to go to heaven. As if heaven is somewhere you don't want to be and hell is somewhere you want to be. Wow.

 

[RushMAN]

Wow. I have heard this backwards logic so many times.
The idea that people will willing go to hell because God will not force anyone to go to heaven. As if heaven is somewhere you don't want to be and hell is somewhere you want to be. Wow.

If one hears the Gospel and does not believe they are willingly not wanting to go be with God and they want to go to Hell. There are many people that will tell you they want to go to Hell. The problem with universalism is it has a fairy tale view of the world and people, not a view of reality

 

[mlepfitjw]

If one hears the Gospel and does not believe they are willingly not wanting to go be with God and they want to go to Hell. There are many people that will tell you they want to go to Hell. The problem with universalism is it has a fairy tale view of the world and people, not a view of reality

You have a right to your belief. So you believe this, so be it so, friend! You know no one should be holding a knife to you to get you to say otherwise! God bless, and have a nice night.

Christianity is subjective, and everyone has a right to how they believe. No one should force anything or to exclaim they are wrong for the sake of just being right and trying to win them over to a different belief.