ALL Scriptures For and Against Once Saved Always Saved

Phil 1:21 · Mar 16, 2018

Jonathan Leo said:
By knowing the truth and walking in it
It is Gods wish for all to be saved but not all are saved. So if God does save, why are t all saved??
It all boils down to us. We have the truth and free will.

"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

Jonathan Leo said:
Please brother, I’m not against you, I’m for you.
I am not saying our works is what save us because they can’t because it is only the blood of Jesus that can. But I am saying is this. If you are walking in Jesus your works should resemble that of Christ, if they don’t you are not truly saved because your faith without Jesus commands to us aka works is dead.
Multiple scriptures to back this up

"Multiple scriptures", even All Scripture,
won't change someones mind if they don't have the truth.

Jonathan Leo · Mar 16, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
"8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Why can’t people understand what I’m saying and what the Bible is saying is exactly the same.

We are NOT SAVED BY WORKS BUT BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST IF WE HAVE FAITH.
HAVING FAITH WITHOUT THE WORKS OF CHRIST IN OUR LIVES WE ARE NOT SAVED.
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS MEANS YOUR FAITH IS DEAD = YOU NEVER HAD FAITH TO BEGIN WITH
BE DOERS OF THE WORD AND NOT JUST HEARING IT UNLESS YOU BE DECIEVED. DECIEVED BY WHAT EXACTLY?? WHY DOES THE WORD ASK US TO HAVE ACTION IN OUR FAITH???

Jonathan Leo · Mar 16, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
"Multiple scriptures", even All Scripture,
won't change someones mind if they don't have the truth.

True that brother, hearts are hardened or demonic teaching has got a hold of them.
It’s a shame that people think Jesus died for them so they can live how they like and Jesus himself taught otherwise.
Pray for these people, no doubt they believe in Jesus and wish to be saved by Him alone yet they don’t believe in what He told us and later His deciles also warned us.

Asaph George · Mar 16, 2018

Exinanition said:
From Asaph George’s post #128:
Asaph George, please let me begin by saying a great big hardy “THANK YOU!” I have been on many forums in the past where people just could not be civil. They would start out nice and friendly and then as soon as anyone disagreed with them their immaturity would unveil itself and the conversation could no longer progress. It is refreshing to find someone like yourself who is kindhearted and seeks only the truth of God. I wish all could be as you are in this. If, at any time, you are offended by anything I say, please let me know so I can apologize. It is never my intention to be offensive in what I write. If anyone is offended by something I write I pray it will be because the word of God has offended them and not I. I do have one particular rule by which I live and that is never to post when I am angry or personally offended. I will walk away and pray for the offending party (and for myself in case I am being overly sensitive) and ask God to help me be gracious before I will respond.

Hey Exinanition,

My brother it is refreshing for me to discuss with someone such as yourself. Thank you for all these kind words! I have nothing but love for anyone proclaiming the name of Christ out loud. I believe we can be united in the Spirit even if we are not on the same page for some doctrine. This I learned not only from experience but also from the Word of God in the Scriptures (Philippians 2:1-2 and Ephesians 4 verses 3 and 12) where Paul says that we maintain unity in the Spirit until we attain the unity of the faith.

When it comes to OSAS, yes it may end up that we both stay with our position. That won't really sadden me in your case because I believe you are born again even though we may differ on this. You may realize also that I am very confident in my stand also. I hope this will not discourage you and if I also seem to be cold or if I insult or hurt you in any way, also let me know so that I also set things straight. May the Lord open our ears brother, we will never attain His infinite wisdom, that is for sure

THE HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE

Before we go into 1 John, I just want to say something about the study of a book in the Bible. For each book/epistle, there are always two perspectives from which to look at it: one historical and the other existential.

The historical perspective puts the book in its historical context. In other words, the apostle John didn't write the letter to us now and he didn't necessarily know that his letter will end up being part of the Bible we have. He had a reason to write it at the time, it is a true letter with a specific purpose. So we have to ask ourselves when, to whom he wrote it and above all why he wrote it. This is the historical perspective.

Then we have the existential perspective. This point of view looks at why has God left is for us in the Holy Bible. What is in it for us as Christians living in the world of today. Both these perspectives are important.

Now if we look at the historical perspective, we can start with the WHEN. We know that, as the Lord Jesus predicted, the beloved disciple John is the only one who lived to old age. His gospel and his three letters are written towards the end of the first century well after the other gospels and epistles. This is important because there is a historical context that the epistle fits into. This will give us a clue as to why the letter was written and to who from a historical perspective.

At the time, docetism (a branch of Gnosticism) has expanded and it is the idea that Jesus only appeared in a body and that he seemed to be human. That sets the context for a focal reason WHY the first epistle of John was written. We can see that at the beginning of the epistle:

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

We see the emphasis that John is putting on the fact that Jesus came as a human, they have heard Him, seen Him and touched Him. In other words, John is tackling docetism and wants His readers to understand that Jesus was truly alive in the flesh. Both fully God and fully man. This is taken up in chapter 2 where he talks about the AntiChrists. In chapter 2, John introduces the AntiChrists and suddenly we see John using "they", "you" and "us". This "they" is the AntiChrists who were trying to spread their lie that Jesus has not really come in the flesh.

Now as to WHO the letter was written to. This is spread all over the letter but it is obvious it is to born again believers. Why do I say this? Because John is pretty clear. Look at these verses:

1 John 2:12-14

12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

We see that John is writing unto what he calls little children, young men and fathers. John is of old age, and this is more of a grand fatherly letter. Little children are new born again Christians, while young men are more mature Christians that have had some experience, they have the Word of God in them (scriptures), they had some experience in overcoming the wicked one. Fathers are even more advanced because they know CHRIST as Eternal Son and Christ, Him that is from the beginning is Christ.

So the letter is directed at true born again believers to say the least.

This is also confirmed in verse 13 of chapter 5:

1 John 5:13

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We see here something interesting. John is saying he is writing to born-again Christians who already believe in the Son, so they may know that they have eternal life (eternal life is in the Son verse 12) and that they CONTINUE believing in Him.

1 JOHN 2: BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS ARE EXHORTED TO CONTINUE IN THE FAITH TO BE SAVED

Now I did a post (#113) to brother Phill where I explained that, in chapter 2, John is talking to the little children (recent converts) to warn them not to be deceived by "they" the AntiChrists.

I will post it again here with additional comments:

1 John 2:18-29

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (It is clear therefore that "they" the AntiChrists are not part of "us" the true believers)

20 But ye (who is this ye? the little children) have an unction from the Holy One (how can we say that they are not born again when they have the unction from the Holy One?), and ye know all things (Jesus says the Spirit guides into ALL truth).

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? (here is the truth that John wants the little children to preserve)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that (That what? that truth that Jesus is the Christ and Son of God) therefore abide (notice that it is for them to LET the truth abide in them) in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning (same truth) shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son (notice they will continue in the Son if the truth abides in them, that means they were already in the Son, do you see this?), and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us (who is this us, John is including Himself as a believer among the little children who are also believers. This "us" represents the ones who let the truth abide in them and who continue in the Son verse 24), even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them (the antichrists) that seduce you.

27 But the anointing (the anointing of the Spirit) which ye have received of him abideth in you (so you see that these little children have already received the Spirit), and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth (so this same anointing IS TRUTH, The Spirit is the Spirit of Truth), and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28 And now, little children, abide in him (So John again addresses them and says to ABIDE in Him, in the Spirit of Christ); that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed (why would they be ashamed? because they did not abide in Him) before him at his coming.

In summary,

John is saying to these believers who have the unction of the Holy One:
- Let the Truth abide in you (which that antichrists are denying) so that they continue in the Son
- that if that truth abides in them they will receive the promise of eternal life
- that this truth is given to them by the anointing they received from God
- to abide in the truth, so that they are not ashamed at His coming.

Notice how all this fits with 1 John 5:13 I mentioned above. It is clear that John is saying to these believers who already have the Truth to let that truth remain in them so that they continue in the Son and be saved. Why that exhortation if they are already saved?

I am interested in what you think of this commentary for chapter 2 (that would be my first question to you concerning our discussion, how do you respond to it). Please also forgive me for the intruding comments. I find it better to follow the train of thought of the authors.

1 John 3

Now jumping to 1 John 3:9 . I know it is long but this is what true Bible study is to me (it is my life). Now let me be clear about something. If 1 John 3:9 is taken ALONE, then yes it seems to mean exactly that if one is born of God he cannot keep sinning and cannot sin. But that is what taking verses out of context does and that is what no one should do.

1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I mean John literally says a born again Christian CANNOT sin. So if this verse is taken out of context, it will necessarily mean that born-again Christians will NEVER EVER SIN. But that cannot be the case because in chapter 2, John says:

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (is John contradicting himself)

So obviously a born-again Christian can sin. Now you may say that John in chapter 3 verse 9 is talking about practising a lifestyle of sin (walking in sin). Well I agree, but that is also talking about born again ABIDING Christians check verse 6:

1 John 3:6 - Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: (basically John is designating born again ABIDING Christians, who is doing the abiding, it is the subject "whoever") whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

This basically means that this "whoever" in verse 9 is the same "whoever" in verse 6:

1 John 3:9 - Whosoever is born of God (and abiding verse 6) doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him (it remains in him because he is also an abiding Christian): and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So what I mean is this, 1 John 3:9 out of context may seem like it is saying that you only need to be born again to be saved. But in reality and in context, John means born again abiding Christians. The abiding is implicit in that verse as shown from verse 6 before it.

Saying "whoever has put on a coat will not be cold" does not mean that this "whoever" will not be wearing pants.

Saying "whoever is born of God does not commit sin" does not mean that this "whoever" will not be abiding in the Son. John is supposing that these born again Christians are willingly abiding in the Son (which should normally happen by the way because of the convicting of the Holy Spirit if they listen)

The Ambiguity of 1 John

Remember when I said that each passage has to be taken on its own in its context in the last post? The letter of 1 John has perplexed scholars because he seems to contradict himself, in places he says, a Christian cannot sin, others if they sin they have an advocate with the Father, in others if we have no sin we are liars, in the end he distinguishes between a brother who sins not unto death and another unto death. It is surely part of the passages that are not clear. Why? It is because the apostle John has no linear reasoning like Paul. He is circular the same as James. He starts with a certain subject, then he goes to something else then he goes back to the first subject and on and on. James does the same in his epistle. He speaks about the mouth, he speaks about something else and then he goes to the mouth, etc.. In other words, the same concept or subject is mentioned many different places in the same book. Therefore, we have to gather verses from all over the place in the same book to get to the truth.

Paul is not like that, he is a lawyer, John is a jewish fisherman . One thing for sure we cannot base the whole doctrine of calvinism and OSAS on one verse 1 John 3:9. We have to see it in the light of the other verses pertaining to sinning after Spiritual birth.

Finally, it is a good verse to analyze and is one of the verses we have to dig into the context to come out with the truth. It also addresses the concept of sin after spiritual rebirth which is why it is relevant to study it. The other verses used to support OSAS don't even mention sin, as we shall see later.

On the other hand, verses against OSAS speak very straight-forward about sin after conversion.

Please brother forgive me for writing long. And take your time to respond. No rush for me.

May the Lord Jesus bless you!

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2018

Jonathan Leo said:
It’s a shame that people think Jesus died for them so they can live how they like

Did someone actually post that they think this ?

Jonathan Leo · Mar 17, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Did someone actually post that they think this ?

No

Asaph George · Mar 17, 2018

MDC said:
Ask yourself why do you not believe that eternal life and forgiveness of sin in Christ is secure, apart from your works? There’s your answer

Hi brother,

We can repeat the same thing over and over. If it is not based on the scriptures, it is all man made.

The thread is in the scriptures section for a reason. I asked questions in last post. Where are the answers? We have to dig deep into the scriptures brother, they are there for a reason.

we can't pick some verses, build theology on them and then ignore all the others that don't fit. All of the scriptures have to fit like a big puzzle. That is why we have to answer.

God bless you! All is with love.

Ron Gurley · Mar 17, 2018

This Forum is heavy laden with threads full of Scripture supporting the true doctrine of the Eternal Security of the true believer's salvation. (OSAS)...Look them up!

Ron Gurley · Mar 17, 2018

SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

Ron Gurley · Mar 17, 2018

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Ron Gurley · Mar 17, 2018

For many discussions on this topic, SEE:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/losing-salvation.8010090/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/you-can-lose-your-salvation-through-apostasy.7785433/

Can a Christian Lose His Salvation?

Willful Sin after Salvation and Eternal Security

Asaph George · Mar 17, 2018

Ron Gurley said:
For many discussions on this topic, SEE:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/losing-salvation.8010090/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/you-can-lose-your-salvation-through-apostasy.7785433/

Can a Christian Lose His Salvation?

Willful Sin after Salvation and Eternal Security

Hello Ron and nice to meet you,

I know all the scriptures for and against this doctrine.

The simple question is this: When we are saved and justified, are we always saved? Or can we lose our salvation because of going back to a lifestyle of sin or deliberately sinning?

You see how in the question the issue of SIN is very important.

What I found is this
- Scriptures and passages that are used to support OSAS don't even mention the word "Sin" (except for the verse 1 John 3:9 which I discussed above with a fellow brother). They are encouraging verses that are comforting which are used to support this doctrine by pushing on them ideas that are not even there.
- While the passages against OSAS are MANY and straight-forward and use more frequently the word of sin to illustrate that indeed it is possible to lose salvation.

I have a method to work with scriptures which is to look in the context of a book one at a time. That way we don't interject from all over the place and the conversation can be constructive. Why? because the people who don't see clearly I believe are not doing it because of learned doctrine. I know some people say that they read the doctrine of OSAS OUT of the scriptures. My experience tells me, most who believe this doctrine have been taught it and then they become so believing in the ideology behind it, they can't let go. So they start reading the bible through their window of preconceived doctrine.

If you are want to discuss I am here but sending me to a page with some opinions will not help. The issue is to discuss publicly and for the body of Christ. The point is to have a back and forth discussion to see whether it makes sense which I am sure it doesn't. But I am willing to show that as clearly as possible.

God bless you!

MDC · Mar 17, 2018

Asaph George said:
Hello Ron and nice to meet you,

I know all the scriptures for and against this doctrine.

The simple question is this: When we are saved and justified, are we always saved? Or can we lose our salvation because of going back to a lifestyle of sin or deliberately sinning?

You see how in the question the issue of SIN is very important.

What I found is this
- Scriptures and passages that are used to support OSAS don't even mention the word "Sin" (except for the verse 1 John 3:9 which I discussed above with a fellow brother). They are encouraging verses that are comforting which are used to support this doctrine by pushing on them ideas that are not even there.
- While the passages against OSAS are MANY and straight-forward and use more frequently the word of sin to illustrate that indeed it is possible to lose salvation.

I have a method to work with scriptures which is to look in the context of a book one at a time. That way we don't interject from all over the place and the conversation can be constructive. Why? because the people who don't see clearly I believe are not doing it because of learned doctrine. I know some people say that they read the doctrine of OSAS OUT of the scriptures. My experience tells me, most who believe this doctrine have been taught it and then they become so believing in the ideology behind it, they can't let go. So they start reading the bible through their window of preconceived doctrine.

If you are want to discuss I am here but sending me to a page with some opinions will not help. The issue is to discuss publicly and for the body of Christ. The point is to have a back and forth discussion to see whether it makes sense which I am sure it doesn't. But I am willing to show that as clearly as possible.

God bless you!

Ephesians 1:3-14. All the saved (elect) will persevere in faith. The denial of Gods Sovereignty in salvation and disbelief in the gospel that saves is why you reject eternal life in Christ and the assurance it brings to believers. And is why your commentary of scripture sees works as the basis for justification. What makes the saved and unsaved differ? It is the grace of God! So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.. Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Romans 9:16-18. But this is hated by those who seek to be justified by their will and works. One who fights against Gods grace in salvation has no faith. And to deny election is to deny grace.. it is why mans works is your foundation and focus

Asaph George · Mar 17, 2018

MDC said:
Ephesians 1:3-14. All the saved (elect) will persevere in faith. The denial of Gods Sovereignty in salvation and disbelief in the gospel that saves is why you reject eternal life in Christ and the assurance it brings to believers. And is why your commentary of scripture sees works as the basis for justification. What makes the saved and unsaved differ? It is the grace of God! So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.. Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Romans 9:16-18. But this is hated by those who seek to be justified by their will and works. One who fights against Gods grace in salvation has no faith. And to deny election is to deny grace.. it is why mans works is your foundation and focus

Works is not basis for justification. It is what is called true faith, a Faith that is not dead. You obviously never really took time to read the epistle of James with an open mind.

These are not our works these are the works of God that He prepared for us before the world began that we should walk in them after we are saved (Ephesians 2:10).

Each branch attached to the Vine will produce fruits for the Kingdom (John 15:1-6). If a branch is attached to the Vine and does not produce fruit, it is useless, it will be cut off. This is what Jesus says in John 15.

I know about the Seal of the Spirit scriptures. Wonderful promise of the Lord for those who are saved and who are following Him! What about this verse talking about the Seal:

2 Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. AND, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY.

We have to depart from iniquity brother. That is not work, that is freedom from slavery to sin.

Yes it is always the grace of God but you have to abide in the grace of God by faith which will produce fruits. We have to be used for the Kingdom. Your comprehension of the Bible is limited to the doctrine you have been taught brother. I am sorry to say this MDC, much love to you brother.

MDC · Mar 17, 2018

Asaph George said:
Works is not basis for justification. It is what is called true faith, a Faith that is not dead. You obviously never really took time to read the epistle of James with an open mind.

These are not our works these are the works of God that He prepared for us before the world began that we should walk in them after we are saved (Ephesians 2:10).

Each branch attached to the Vine will produce fruits for the Kingdom (John 15:1-6). If a branch is attached to the Vine and does not produce fruit, it is useless, it will be cut off. This is what Jesus says in John 15.

I know about the Seal of the Spirit scriptures. Wonderful promise of the Lord for those who are saved and who are following Him! What about this verse talking about the Seal:

2 Timothy 2:19 – Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this SEAL, The Lord knoweth them that are his. AND, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY.

We have to depart from iniquity brother. That is not work, that is freedom from slavery to sin.

Yes it is always the grace of God but you have to abide in the grace of God by faith which will produce fruits. We have to be used for the Kingdom. Your comprehension of the Bible is limited to the doctrine you have been taught brother. I am sorry to say this MDC, much love to you brother.

If you believe Ephesians 2:10 and that good works is the result or fruit of salvation, then you COULD NOT believe that the elect can lose eternal life in Christ. Christ will lose none of His sheep. To believe one is capable of losing salvation means one believes his works are the basis for justification. It’s that simple. And your doctrine is quite common among modern day Judaizers of all stripes, who nullify Gods grace and makes nothing of Christ and His finished work, by insinuating that salvation is a cooperative effort between man and Jesus

Asaph George · Mar 17, 2018

MDC said:
If you believe Ephesians 2:10 and that good works is the result or fruit of salvation, then you COULD NOT believe that the elect can lose eternal life in Christ.

My brother,

Eternal life is in the Son. We have to continue in the Son. We abide in the Son by faith. But yes the will is engaged, we can resist the Holy Spirit after we are saved. Your confusion comes from indoctrination, this indoctrination comes from the false idea that eternal life means eternal security. The life that is eternal is in the Spirit. We have to abide in the Spirit to have that eternal life.

Your confusion also comes from the fact that you think that keeping repentance is optional, it is not. Jesus came to set us FREE FROM SIN. We can no longer sin when walking in the Spirit. Paul says: WALK in the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the desires of the flesh. This is how we get free by walking in the Spirit.

The good news is that Jesus died to take our sins away. If we believe in this sacrifice of the Father, we will repent and believe and He will give us His Holy Spirit whom will guide us into Holiness and into the works of God. We have to walk the Faith, not just believe and sit back waiting for Him to come fetch us.

I see that you are accusing me of being a Judaizer. Judaizers are the people who said to the disciples at the time they have to follow the Law of Moses which I don't. You are all over the place brother.

We have to read context not just repeat the verses that we think support the doctrine that is already set in our minds. We need much experience to know this. I have been studying the Word for more than 10 years with a minimum of 4 hours a day for the last 2 years or so. It has to become our language. Read OUT of the scriptures like a normal book.

Feel free to leave the last post. I don't see any way to be constructive in this discussion. I know when someone is seeking the truth and when someone is not.

May the Lord bless you dear brother.

MDC · Mar 17, 2018

Asaph George said:
My brother,

Eternal life is in the Son. We have to continue in the Son. We abide in the Son by faith. But yes the will is engaged, we can resist the Holy Spirit after we are saved. Your confusion comes from indoctrination, this indoctrination comes from the false idea that eternal life means eternal security. The life that is eternal is in the Spirit. We have to abide in the Spirit to have that eternal life.

Your confusion also comes from the fact that you think that keeping repentance is optional, it is not. Jesus came to set us FREE FROM SIN. We can no longer sin when walking in the Spirit. Paul says: WALK in the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the desires of the flesh. This is how we get free by walking in the Spirit.

The good news is that Jesus died to take our sins away. If we believe in this sacrifice of the Father, we will repent and believe and He will give us His Holy Spirit whom will guide us into Holiness and into the works of God. We have to walk the Faith, not just believe and sit back waiting for Him to come fetch us.

I see that you are accusing me of being a Judaizer. Judaizers are the people who said to the disciples at the time they have to follow the Law of Moses which I don't. You are all over the place brother.

We have to read context not just repeat the verses that we think support the doctrine that is already set in our minds. We need much experience to know this. I have been studying the Word for more than 10 years with a minimum of 4 hours a day for the last 2 years or so. It has to become our language. Read OUT of the scriptures like a normal book.

Feel free to leave the last post. I don't see any way to be constructive in this discussion. I know when someone is seeking the truth and when someone is not.

May the Lord bless you dear brother.

Keeping repentance is optional?? Sit back and just wait?? Sure I said something like that! Lol! It’s always the antinomian card pulled to try and justify works based salvation. If life is eternal in Christ, then eternal life is secure in Christ. If not then eternal life isn’t in Christ. But this is what you are espousing. With all the boasting of how much you study God’s Word I’m sure you’ve come across that the saved, by way of a new heart (regeneration), produces the fruit of repentance and faith toward Christ. Like I said you believe salvation is a cooperative effort. So therefore can’t see all of salvation is by the election of grace in Christ

Theophan · Mar 18, 2018

Asaph George said:
Hello everyone,

I am interested in getting people's opinion on something. After I became a born again Christian I was surprised to discover how spread the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" is. From my reading of the Bible, I would have never really got the impression that we can never lose our salvation. In fact, I was convinced that to be saved we have to keep our faith until the end.

Because of many conversations with other believers, I have made it my objective to discover the truth so I gathered all scriptures used for and against this doctrine and put them on my website at this link: Once Saved Always Saved Verses

This reinforced my position that this doctrine is not true. But I am interested in knowing the opinion of others on this matter. I know it is much to read but just looking at the page and comparing the number of scriptures for each side is already surprising.

Is it me or the number of scriptures telling us that we have to endure until the end to be saved much more than the other side? I also feel the people who believe in Once Saved Always Saved always use the same verses and push into them things they don't really say. While the scriptures against it are much more obvious and straight-forward.

I am interested to know if there is something I am missing.

Thank you all. Any opinion is appreciated.

Gregory of Nyssa
“If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire” (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).

John Chrysostom
“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them” (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

“Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extent of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf” (Homilies on Philippians 3:9–10 [A.D. 402]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“Be not deceived, my brethren: If anyone follows a maker of schism [i.e., is a schismatic], he does not inherit the kingdom of God; if anyone walks in strange doctrine [i.e., is a heretic], he has no part in the passion [of Christ]. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of his blood; one altar, as there is one bishop, with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons” (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3–4:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
“We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes [John 1:9]. Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [Greek, logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them. . . . Those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason [logos] were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason [logos], whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason [logos] are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid” (First Apology 46 [A.D. 151]).

Cyprian of Carthage
“Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father who has not the Church for his mother” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1st ed. [A.D. 251]).

“Let them not think that the way of life or salvation exists for them, if they have refused to obey the bishops and priests, since the Lord says in the book of Deuteronomy: ‘And any man who has the insolence to refuse to listen to the priest or judge, whoever he may be in those days, that man shall die’ [Deut. 17:12]. And then, indeed, they were killed with the sword . . . but now the proud and insolent are killed with the sword of the Spirit, when they are cast out from the Church. For they cannot live outside, since there is only one house of God, and there can be no salvation for anyone except in the Church” (Letters 61[4]:4 [A.D. 253]).

“When we say, ‘Do you believe in eternal life and the remission of sins through the holy Church?’ we mean that remission of sins is not granted except in the Church” (ibid., 69[70]:2 [A.D. 253]).

“Peter himself, showing and vindicating the unity, has commanded and warned us that we cannot be saved except by the one only baptism of the one Church. He says, ‘In the ark of Noah a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Similarly, baptism will in like manner save you” [1 Peter 3:20-21]. In how short and spiritual a summary has he set forth the sacrament of unity! In that baptism of the world in which its ancient wickedness was washed away, he who was not in the ark of Noah could not be saved by water. Likewise, neither can he be saved by baptism who has not been baptized in the Church which is established in the unity of the Lord according to the sacrament of the one ark” (ibid., 73[71]:11).

“[O]utside the Church there is no Holy Spirit, sound faith moreover cannot exist, not alone among heretics, but even among those who are established in schism” (Treatise on Rebaptism 10 [A.D. 256]).

Jerome
“Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation. Between heresy and schism there is this difference: that heresy involves perverse doctrine, while schism separates one from the Church on account of disagreement with the bishop. Nevertheless, there is no schism which does not trump up a heresy to justify its departure from the Church” (Commentary on Titus 3:10–11 [A.D. 386]).

Theophan · Mar 18, 2018

Asaph George said:
My brother,

Eternal life is in the Son. We have to continue in the Son. We abide in the Son by faith. But yes the will is engaged, we can resist the Holy Spirit after we are saved. Your confusion comes from indoctrination, this indoctrination comes from the false idea that eternal life means eternal security. The life that is eternal is in the Spirit. We have to abide in the Spirit to have that eternal life.

Your confusion also comes from the fact that you think that keeping repentance is optional, it is not. Jesus came to set us FREE FROM SIN. We can no longer sin when walking in the Spirit. Paul says: WALK in the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the desires of the flesh. This is how we get free by walking in the Spirit.

The good news is that Jesus died to take our sins away. If we believe in this sacrifice of the Father, we will repent and believe and He will give us His Holy Spirit whom will guide us into Holiness and into the works of God. We have to walk the Faith, not just believe and sit back waiting for Him to come fetch us.

I see that you are accusing me of being a Judaizer. Judaizers are the people who said to the disciples at the time they have to follow the Law of Moses which I don't. You are all over the place brother.

We have to read context not just repeat the verses that we think support the doctrine that is already set in our minds. We need much experience to know this. I have been studying the Word for more than 10 years with a minimum of 4 hours a day for the last 2 years or so. It has to become our language. Read OUT of the scriptures like a normal book.

Feel free to leave the last post. I don't see any way to be constructive in this discussion. I know when someone is seeking the truth and when someone is not.

May the Lord bless you dear brother.

Mark 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God.

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