ALL Scriptures For and Against Once Saved Always Saved

Theophan

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My brother,

Eternal life is in the Son. We have to continue in the Son. We abide in the Son by faith. But yes the will is engaged, we can resist the Holy Spirit after we are saved. Your confusion comes from indoctrination, this indoctrination comes from the false idea that eternal life means eternal security. The life that is eternal is in the Spirit. We have to abide in the Spirit to have that eternal life.

Your confusion also comes from the fact that you think that keeping repentance is optional, it is not. Jesus came to set us FREE FROM SIN. We can no longer sin when walking in the Spirit. Paul says: WALK in the Spirit and you shall not fulfil the desires of the flesh. This is how we get free by walking in the Spirit.

The good news is that Jesus died to take our sins away. If we believe in this sacrifice of the Father, we will repent and believe and He will give us His Holy Spirit whom will guide us into Holiness and into the works of God. We have to walk the Faith, not just believe and sit back waiting for Him to come fetch us.

I see that you are accusing me of being a Judaizer. Judaizers are the people who said to the disciples at the time they have to follow the Law of Moses which I don't. You are all over the place brother.

We have to read context not just repeat the verses that we think support the doctrine that is already set in our minds. We need much experience to know this. I have been studying the Word for more than 10 years with a minimum of 4 hours a day for the last 2 years or so. It has to become our language. Read OUT of the scriptures like a normal book.

Feel free to leave the last post. I don't see any way to be constructive in this discussion. I know when someone is seeking the truth and when someone is not.

May the Lord bless you dear brother.

Hello brother,

You speak the truth. God be glorified!

Now tell me, where have you landed in your views on the Church of Christ. Is His body divided into manifold schisms as we see in the Protestant world? Is His body found united on this Earth or not? If so, where is His body, truly? Do you not agree that the Church of Christ should not hold different dogmatic beliefs about the Lord but be of one mine, one heart, one voice?
 
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Ron Gurley

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Forgiveness of sins, the major benefit of salvation, is what Jesus the Divine Christ practiced and preached, NOT loss of salvation upon sinning. 1 John 1

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (NEW) covenant, which is poured out for many (who accept) for forgiveness of sins.

Luke 1:77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,

Acts 10:43
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them,
It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick;
I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
 
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Ron Gurley

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My salvation was paid for and accepted....SEALED!! REDEEMED!! RECONCILED!! JUSTIFIED!!
I sin after salvation which SIN is forgiven upon confession AND I am cleansed.
This sheep may stray but it is impossible to change back into a goat.
The Father and Son have me in their hands as Good Shepherds.John 10

Romans 8:39
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing (like SIN), will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Are you living in the fear of losing your saved spiritual POSITION IN CHRIST because your "old man" is not "dead"? Your "new creature in Christ" + God the Holy Spirit battles the "old man"/sin nature daily!!
 
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Asaph George

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Keeping repentance is optional?? Sit back and just wait?? Sure I said something like that! Lol! It’s always the antinomian card pulled to try and justify works based salvation. If not then eternal life isn’t in Christ. But this is what you are espousing. With all the boasting of how much you study God’s Word I’m sure you’ve come across that the saved, by way of a new heart (regeneration), produces the fruit of repentance and faith toward Christ. Like I said you believe salvation is a cooperative effort. So therefore can’t see all of salvation is by the election of grace in Christ

Hello brother MDC,

If once we are saved we are always saved, then that means yes keeping repentance will become optional whether we believe it or not. This is what the doctrine OSAS has a danger of doing because if that expression exists it is because man wants to use it. If salvation is completely secure and irrevocable, then yes keeping repentance is optional, it is just for extra points and rewards. So it doesn't matter if you said it or not.

If life is eternal in Christ, then eternal life is secure in Christ.

Yes it is secure IN Christ, which is why you have to ABIDE in Him all the time until the end.

Jesus said: whoever WISHES to follow Me, let Him deny Himself EVERY DAY, pick up his cross and follow Me.

It is a day by day walk IN CHRIST.

With all the boasting of how much you study God’s Word I’m sure you’ve come across that the saved, by way of a new heart (regeneration), produces the fruit of repentance and faith toward Christ



I am always careful not to turn discussion with brothers personal. I do not boast, everything I have I owe to Christ, I am a dead man walking by the grace of the living God. Personal attacks on character are always a sign of inability to keep up with mature discussions.

but the other thing you said is true, the regeneration and sanctification of the Spirit will produce the fruit of repentance, faith and also the works of Christ. But that is if we LET HIM. Salvation is not shoved down our throats. There is such a thing as resisting the Spirit.

I showed you before verse in acts 7:51 - Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I asked you what does that mean? You ignored of course as you will do now and just repeat doctrinal beliefs. The question is why does rebuke them and say to them that they RESIST the Spirit? How come they can resist the Spirit if the Spirit of grace is irresistible? Can you answer this or you just going to ignore brother?

It is not that salvation is cooperative. It is God that saves but we have to abide IN HIM by faith to remain in His saving hands. This is all over the new testament.

May the Lord Jesus bless you! I am sorry brother but if this is not going to be constructive and it is just about repeating doctrinal beliefs then this would be my last message to you unless you can answer verse Acts 7:51 above.
 
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Asaph George

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Hello brother,

You speak the truth. God be glorified!

Now tell me, where have you landed in your views on the Church of Christ. Is His body divided into manifold schisms as we see in the Protestant world? Is His body found united on this Earth or not? If so, where is His body, truly? Do you not agree that the Church of Christ should not hold different dogmatic beliefs about the Lord but be of one mine, one heart, one voice?

Hello Theophan and nice to meet you brother. :)

When it comes to church, the word has been used even before Jesus came. This word was used to say an assembly of people working toward something or of one accord about something if you like.

The Lord Jesus used this word two times, one to mean universal church (to Peter on this rock I will build my church) and another local (about correcting a brother: tell it to the church). I always get all my learning in the scriptures by the leading of the Spirit as I believe EVERY word in the scriptures is inspired by God to be written for our benefit.

I believe the body of Christ is now scattered all over the earth. The universal church is that body of believers that are born again and abiding in the Spirit, the people who follow Jesus and His words every day. Each member of the universal body of Christ should be striving to stay connected to the Head Jesus Christ every day. It is a life of commitment and service.

The issue of division is of course everywhere now and the Lord is not happy with it. But Jesus knew that when He comes back He will not find a lot of people having faith on earth. He said it: "the love of many will wax cold" or "when He comes back will He find faith on earth". So I believe that the body is scattered now in a form of a remnant.

Now that doesn't mean that local church is not important, it is of utmost importance. The local church shows and how Jesus used it shows that believers are expected to act together in love and in truth. Both Truth and Love must be the focal point of unity in a local church setting. So you are absolutely RIGHT, the body of Christ should not hold different dogmatic beliefs about the Lord, we have to be of one spirit, one mind, one soul and one accord. This is the ideal but that is not what we find in today's world. I personally find that what is dividing the church is not dogmatic beliefs, it is more the pride of men. The difference in dogma is just the result of that pride and ego.

If men of God had the right spirit they would have been interested in preserving the unity of the Spirit instead of dividing the church for dogmatic beliefs and doctrines. This is because Jesus said that people would know us because of the love we have for each other and not for what dogmatic beliefs we have. That is of course as long as a minimum is met (The divinity of Christ, Godhead, death, burial and resurrection of Christ, Christ coming in the flesh). That is also as long as wilful disobedience to Christ is not infecting the local assembly of the church. We see that Paul was very adament to remove wilful sinners out of the protective spirit of the local church.

So what I believe is this, we keep the UNITY of the Spirit UNTIL we attain the Unity of the Faith and mind. This is what I clearly see in Philippians 2 and Ephesians 4 (the favorite passage for five-fold ministries).

I hope I answered your question brother.

May the Lord bless you!
 
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Asaph George

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Forgiveness of sins, the major benefit of salvation, is what Jesus the Divine Christ practiced and preached, NOT loss of salvation upon sinning. 1 John 1

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (NEW) covenant, which is poured out for many (who accept) for forgiveness of sins.

Luke 1:77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,

Acts 10:43
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them,
It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick;
I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Hi Ron,

I don't know why you are mentioning this. Forgiveness of sins is by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus on the cross. It is by putting our faith in Him and in His sacrifice that we are forgiven.

Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. He describes sinners as sick needing a doctor. He ate with sinners but as a doctor as a healer. They knew they are sinners and that is the first step toward coming to Christ. I have to know that I am sick in order to go to the doctor.

Whenever we pick verses left and right in the Bible, we make those verses of emphasis compared to the other verses that are not mentioned they all have to fit like a big puzzle.

You said that Jesus did not preach loss of salvation upon sinning. Jesus preached REPENTANCE brother, and repentance means "changing our mind about sin". Jesus said to sin NO MORE. He said to repent or perish. John said to produce fruit MEET for repentance.

So yes we are forgiven of our PAST sins but then when we are baptized and receive the Spirit, we walk in NEWNESS OF LIFE (romans 8), we are no longer slaves to sin, we are FREE in the Spirit. It is the constant walk in the Spirit that will sanctify us in our future walk with Christ when we are born again. That is why we have to deny ourselves every day as Jesus said we should. We die daily to ourselves so that the Spirit of Christ leads us. God is not a formula.

God bless you!
 
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Asaph George

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My salvation was paid for and accepted....SEALED!! REDEEMED!! RECONCILED!! JUSTIFIED!!
I sin after salvation which SIN is forgiven upon confession AND I am cleansed.
This sheep may stray but it is impossible to change back into a goat.
The Father and Son have me in their hands as Good Shepherds.John 10

Romans 8:39
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing (like SIN), will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hello Ron,

This here is a classic example of pushing things on scriptures.

When we believe in a doctrine that doctrine becomes fix in our minds, then when we look at scriptures we push things on them things they don't say. This is what happened for John 10:28 and Romans 8:39 and all the verses of the Seal of the Spirit and predestination.

It is always the same verses.

John 10:28 is talking about the sheep of Christ, the sheep of Christ are in the fold as long as they are following Him. He said His sheep hear His voice and FOLLOW Him. Following Jesus is not a one time thing. When a sheep follows the shepherd, they will not be lost because the shepherd protects them. John 10 does not mention anything about the sheep WILLINGLY turning away from God and does not mention sin. But you assumed this because that is what the doctrine uses for its support.

Same with Romans 8:39. The word Sin is not in there, but you put it in there to make the verse say something it doesn't say.

If I say "I will go to highschool and get my diploma and there is NOTHING that can prevent me from doing this", this assumes that I want to get that diploma. People hearing me say this will never think that I can't change my mind later. The statement supposes that I am not part of those things that will prevent me from getting my diploma. It supposes that I want the diploma.

Same with Romans 8:39, nothing will be able to separate us as long as we want to be with Him and follow Him forsaking our lifestyle of sin. This is the danger of adding to the Word of God.

On the other hand, verses like Hebrews 10:26 are straight-forwardly talking about wilful sin. You see the difference brother?

May God bless you
 
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Asaph George

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Are you living in the fear of losing your saved spiritual POSITION IN CHRIST because your "old man" is not "dead"? Your "new creature in Christ" + God the Holy Spirit battles the "old man"/sin nature daily!!

No I am not living in the fear of losing salvation because I constantly walk with Christ and in the Spirit everyday. The Spirit gives peace and hope. The old man is dead that is how I know that I am in the Spirit, I have no desire to sin. And yes we are a new creature.

But there is also a healthy fear of God, and there are also other verses talking about working out our salvation with fear and trembling, or is not that part of the Word of God?

Paul Himself said 1 Corinthians 9:16 - For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

One would wonder why Paul who is one of the greatest apostles of Christ would say it is necessity, or WOE to him, Woe is a curse. Paul knew that he had to preach, that if he didn't, he would not attain salvation, that is AFTER he got saved. Can you answer this? (Notice how I answered the verses you mentioned, can you answer the verses I mentioned?)

Also this one: 1 Corinthians 9:27 - But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Can you discuss these?

We can always mention the same verses in support for a doctrine, but we have to answer ALL verses, ALL OF THEM have to fit in God's truth. Not one word should be ignored.

may the Lord bless you brother. All with love!
 
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Ron Gurley

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ACTS 7:51 (nasb)
“You men who are stiff-necked and (SPIRITUALLY) uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting (God) the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. (UNBELIEVERS)

Stephen Put to Death
54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him.

Stephen, IN CONTEXT, is peaching to unbelieving Jewish sects who are not indwelt by God the Holy Spirit.

FOR BELIEVERS who do not lose their salvation upon sinning..."free will":

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit;

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were SEALED for the day of (FINAL) redemption.

Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with (UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF) the Spirit,
 
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Ron Gurley

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PAUL:
Romans 7...the struggle between the two natures AFTER SALVATION
Romans 8....
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus.
2 For The law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death
 
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Asaph George

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ACTS 7:51 (nasb)
“You men who are stiff-necked and (SPIRITUALLY) uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting (God) the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. (UNBELIEVERS)

Stephen Put to Death
54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him.

Stephen, IN CONTEXT, is peaching to unbelieving Jewish sects who are not indwelt by God the Holy Spirit.

FOR BELIEVERS who do not lose their salvation upon sinning..."free will":

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit;

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were SEALED for the day of (FINAL) redemption.

Ephesians 5:18
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with (UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF) the Spirit,

Hello brother Ron,

again let's not start throwing verses left and right. Everybody can do that.

The issue is not whether a believer can or cannot resist the Spirit. It is whether anyone (believer or unbeliever) can, in fact, resist the Holy Spirit.

If man has no part whatsoever in his own salvation, then he would not be able to resist the Spirit whether he is an unbeliever or a believer.

Are we saying that unbelievers can willingly resist the Spirit of Grace and that believers cannot ?

Thanks and God bless
 
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Asaph George

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PAUL:
Romans 7...the struggle between the two natures AFTER SALVATION
Romans 8....
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus.
2 For The law of the Spirit of life IN Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death

Romans 7 is one of the least understood chapter in the WHOLE New Testament.

Romans 6,7 and 8 are ALL one big block.

verse and chapter numbers have been added after the 10th century. Therefore you have to read these 3 chapters together. Romans 7 is not after but BEFORE salvation under the Law.

In that chapter, Paul is explaining how man under the Law, has their mind agreeing with the Law but is not able to follow the law (even though they want to) because of another law within their members which is the law of sin and death.

In the end of chapter 7, Paul says who can deliver that man (who is under the law) from that body of death, glory to Jesus He can. Then he moves on to chapter 8 that says that the Spirit will set us free from the law of sin and death. It is after the beginning of chapter 8, that we have salvation.

We can discuss chapter 7 in detail if you want here. I can put up the whole chapters 7 and 8. It is not easy to understand because Paul puts himself in there figuratively as man under the law to explain the personal struggle that all men have when they are under the law.

God bless you!
 
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Ron Gurley

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Q: Are we saying that unbelievers can willingly resist the Spirit of Grace and that believers cannot ?

A: No. All of Mankind has "free will" to grieve/quench/resist the comfort and guidance of God the Holy Spirit into the will of God.

Romans 12:2 (NASB)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Unbelievers=> RESIST the CALLING/DRAWING to accept salvation.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Chronicles 28:9

Believers=> RESIST the comfort and guidance of the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit during the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS.

see: POST # 210 !
 
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Asaph George

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Q: Are we saying that unbelievers can willingly resist the Spirit of Grace and that believers cannot ?

A: No. All of Mankind has "free will" to grieve/quench/resist the comfort and guidance of God the Holy Spirit into the will of God.

Romans 12:2 (NASB)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Hello Ron,

I know what you are implying by putting quotation marks around free will but my brother there would be no reason for Stephen to call them stiff-necked people if it is God who predestined them to destruction. We can't have it both ways. Either we are responsible or we are not. If it is God who predestined these Jews to reject the gospel by not giving them the freedom of choice to accept it, Stephen would be wrong in calling them stiff-necked people. This word means that God is calling them but they are refusing the call by their own choice. We can't have it both ways. We can't say there is no free will to choose and then turn around and say they are resisting the Holy Spirit.

The irresistible grace is not irresistible when it can be resisted. That is a clear contradiction. Romans 12:2 has no relevance to the subject here, I don't know why you quoted it.
 
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Asaph George

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Unbelievers=> RESIST the CALLING/DRAWING to accept salvation.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Chronicles 28:9

Believers=> RESIST the comfort and guidance of the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit during the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS.

see: POST # 210 !

Hi again Ron,

There is a hole in the logic you are using,

Again, whether believers or unbelievers, the fact that one can resist the Holy Spirit means that the Holy Spirit is resistible.

If we say that an unbeliever can not come to the Lord Jesus unless the Father draws them, then there be would no valid reason for Stephen to call these Jewish people stiff-necked for not accepting the truth. Why? because by your own logic, the Father is not drawing them. He did not give them the capacity to accept the truth. That is by your own logic.

Do you see the contradiction brother?

God bless you!
 
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I see that there are two camps of OSAS:
1- Many think that after we are born again, we will never lose our salvation and that even if we go back deliberately to a lifestyle of sin and keep sinning wilfully.
2- Some think that after we are born again, the obedience to the Will of God and conviction of the Spirit will force the child of God to stay on the narrow road and therefore will guarantee their salvation. (irresistible grace and perseverance of the Saints).

Brother George.

Good day to you in the Lord.

First, I admire the way you speak in love. Thank you for doing that, brother.
Second, I have been arguing against OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) or Eternal Security for many years now. As you know, it is not even remotely biblical. For me: I feel like it is a part of my calling to argue against this particular belief because I consider it to be an attack on God's goodness or basic morality.

Three, I like your categorization of the two OSAS beliefs. Very well said. Personally, in my many discussions on OSAS over the years, I have discovered that there are three major types of Eternal Security, or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). I classify them as follows:

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. However, they believe falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).​

I came up with these classifications based upon real people I have talked with in person and online.

OSAS Type #2. is the most common OSAS proponent you will run into. I have ran into a few who believe in OSAS type #1 and they are very scary. OSAS Type #3 is the kind of believer I can have fellowship with. We may not agree, but I can respect that they are not seeking to justify sin in some way. Most versions of OSAS seek to justify a sin and still be saved gospel.

Then there are those who deny OSAS and yet they think they can sin and still be saved on some level. They believe one can walk away from God by choosing to reject God. But they believe sin will not separate a believer.

Anyways, it is good to see you defending the truth, brother.
Keep at it;
And may the Lord bless your efforts.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.
 
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Brother George.

Good day to you in the Lord.

First, I admire the way you speak in love. Thank you for doing that, brother.
Second, I have been arguing against OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) or Eternal Security for many years now. As you know, it is not even remotely biblical. For me: I feel like it is a part of my calling to argue against this particular belief because I consider it to be an attack on God's goodness or basic morality.

Three, I like your categorization of the two OSAS beliefs. Very well said. Personally, in my many discussions on OSAS over the years, I have discovered that there are three major types of Eternal Security, or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). I classify them as follows:

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. However, they believe falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).​

I came up with these classifications based upon real people I have talked with in person and online.

OSAS Type #2. is the most common OSAS proponent you will run into. I have ran into a few who believe in OSAS type #1 and they are very scary. OSAS Type #3 is the kind of believer I can have fellowship with. We may not agree, but I can respect that they are not seeking to justify sin in some way. Most versions of OSAS seek to justify a sin and still be saved gospel.

Then there are those who deny OSAS and yet they think they can sin and still be saved on some level. They believe one can walk away from God by choosing to reject God. But they believe sin will not separate a believer.

Anyways, it is good to see you defending the truth, brother.
Keep at it;
And may the Lord bless your efforts.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

Hello brother :)

Thank you very much for these kind and encouraging words. I need to hear some sometimes :)

My brother, I couldn't have summarized better what you just said here. The whole issue of OSAS not only is unbiblical but also goes against common sense. As soon as I heard about the doctrine, I was shocked to see how many believe in it. I came out of false doctrinal beliefs in the Catholic church. So I knew already that the answer should be in the Bible and it is. It is simply not there.

There is comfort and assurance, we are supposed to have assurance when walking in Christ. Also there is the concept of predestination and it is right there in the Bible. God's will is sovereign and we don't deny it. But the beauty of the whole thing is that He will have His way even though we can say no to Him. That is how Mighty our God is :). Sure also the Spirit seals us and keeps us. But from there to say that we are saved even if we continue sinning is just pushing TOO MUCH unto these verses. The word "sin" is not even in these verses showing how much biblical support this doctrine is lacking.

It is true also what you said, it goes against the love of God. The issue is this, when I get to the end of the issue with OSAS brothers, I always ask them: "if God desires that no one perish and that all come to repentance, why doesn't He do it?"

Here many OSAS brothers start talking in weird ways like: "We cannot understand everything" or "it is the inscrutable wisdom of God", etc..

This to me is rational proof that it doesn't hold. I believe that there is much more behind the scenes that is happening. We don't battle against flesh and blood, the doctrine OSAS to me is a new modernized version of the same lie of the dragon in the garden: "Did He really say you will not die?"

I never look down on my OSAS brothers, I love them but when it comes to the truth, of course, OSAS is not true. When we go into the deep things, when we look honestly at the context and the words being used in the Bible, when we dig deep, we will see the truth if we are honest.

The parable of the 10 virgins and John 15 alone are a big sign it doesn't hold. I have never met someone from OSAS who have a good answer to these. They have to ignore them or twist them in a weird way.

God bless you brother. Hopefully we talk more!
 
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Thank you very much for these kind and encouraging words. I need to hear some sometimes :)

My brother, I couldn't have summarized better what you just said here. The whole issue of OSAS not only is unbiblical but also goes against common sense. As soon as I heard about the doctrine, I was shocked to see how many believe in it. I came out of false doctrinal beliefs in the Catholic church. So I knew already that the answer should be in the Bible and it is. It is simply not there.

Hello again George.

It is comforting to know we are fighting for the truth together in love.
Iron sharpens iron, brother.

As for Catholicism: Well, I have tried to argue against Catholicism here at Christian Forums and it did not go over well. Meaning, I got penalized for it. So I try to pick and choose my battles elsewhere. So be careful about arguing against Catholicism here. You can debate certain topics in regards to the RCC (I do believe in certain threads only), but be careful. Also, we cannot say that their belief is false (even if we may think that). I could be wrong, but I think we can say a particular belief is unbiblical but we cannot say a belief or denomination is false (if my memory on the rules serves me correctly). Granted, if it is something totally ridiculous like the Flat Earth belief, that is another matter. We can say that the Flat Earth belief is false because most Christians and everyone on the planet knows that such a belief is simply not true.

You said:
There is comfort and assurance, we are supposed to have assurance when walking in Christ. Also there is the concept of predestination and it is right there in the Bible. God's will is sovereign and we don't deny it. But the beauty of the whole thing is that He will have His way even though we can say no to Him. That is how Mighty our God is :). Sure also the Spirit seals us and keeps us. But from there to say that we are saved even if we continue sinning is just pushing TOO MUCH unto these verses. The word "sin" is not even in these verses showing how much biblical support this doctrine is lacking.

Yes, I believe there is comfort and assurance. We can have an assurance that we know the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). If we do happen to sin or stumble on occasion in this life, 1 John 1:9 is a promise we can bank on (Not as a license to sin, but as a means to overcome sin).

Calvinists believe there is no free will in regards to accepting Christ. Non-Calvinistic Eternal Security Proponents believe there is no free will after salvation (because a believer is forever forced with the decision in being saved after coming to the faith). In other words, this is also "forced salvation" which runs contrary to what "true love" is all about. For we know that "true love" exists when two people BOTH agree to love each other. If the other person forces the other person to love them, then it is not real.

Forced Love:

336eef20312f7c411161cadff730a4c4.jpg


In other words, if you believe in "Eternal Security" or "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved) you believe God saves you and that there is nothing you could ever do that could jeopardize your standing with Him. That once you accept God, you are then forced into a relationship that you can't break out of. You are trapped. Your free will is no longer. You can't leave. Once you check in, you can't check out. God has forced His love upon you because of your one choice to believe in Him for your salvation.

Such a notion sounds absolutely ridiculous. But this is what you must believe if your a proponent of "Eternal Security". I mean, have you ever watched one of those movies about a girl who had a crush on a guy, which quickly turned into a forceful or twisted relationship? You know, the movie where boy meets girl, but the boy loses interest, yet the girl doesn't and therefore she forces her love upon him. So things get pretty dark and twisted. This is exactly what proponents of "Eternal Security" have done with God. They have made God out to be this woman who had forced her love upon a man who didn't want her love anymore.

In fact, do you remember the story of David and Bathsheba? David wanted to keep the forbidden love of another man's wife. So he forced a relationship of what he believed to be love by killing her husband (Uriah) so he could be with her in the way that he wanted (or loved). Veritably, there is no doubt in my mind that David might have even loved Bathsheba. However, it was not a love that was his. So David tried to force love in a way that was not natural or good (by permanently eliminating the will of another) (2 Samuel 11:1-27). For that is exactly what "Eternal Security" does. It sets up a loving relationship as if it was something that had to be forced. That once you are saved, you are always saved (no matter what you do or even if you change your mind). Such a notion goes against all logic of what we know about free will and true love.

As for the OSAS claim on the sealing of the Spirit:

(Click on the following spoiler button to learn more):

What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalms 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).

You said:
It is true also what you said, it goes against the love of God. The issue is this, when I get to the end of the issue with OSAS brothers, I always ask them: "if God desires that no one perish and that all come to repentance, why doesn't He do it?"

Here many OSAS brothers start talking in weird ways like: "We cannot understand everything" or "it is the inscrutable wisdom of God", etc..

Certain OSAS proponents believe repentance is not turning from sin but it simply is a change of mind about sin (with no change in one's life). I can accept repentance as turning away from sin because that is a part of repentance. However, to be more specific, I see the Bible define repentance as asking God for forgiveness of one's sins (Which is then followed by the fruits of repentance, i.e. forsaking sin). If you are interested, you can check out my Biblical case for repentance below by clicking on the following spoiler button.

My Biblical Case For Repentance:


At the heart, I believe repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness"

(Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."


#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance

(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

You said:
This to me is rational proof that it doesn't hold. I believe that there is much more behind the scenes that is happening. We don't battle against flesh and blood, the doctrine OSAS to me is a new modernized version of the same lie of the dragon in the garden: "Did He really say you will not die?"

In addition to God's Word, prayer is one of our best weapons. I just recently seen the movie called "War Room." Very good movie with an amazing message. I would highly recommend renting this one through Amazon Prime if you have that in Canada. Granted, this movie is not on my "Most Rewatchable Christian Films List," but it is still a great movie. It inspired me to start writing in a prayer journal. Anyways, if you are interested in seeing my favorite Christian films, you can check that out here (if you like):

What Christian Movies Do You Find To Be The Most Rewatchable?

You said:
I never look down on my OSAS brothers, I love them but when it comes to the truth, of course, OSAS is not true. When we go into the deep things, when we look honestly at the context and the words being used in the Bible, when we dig deep, we will see the truth if we are honest.

That is an amazing and admirable Christ like attitude to have, brother.
Glory be to the Lord for the love that you have for our brothers.
I remember, when I first started arguing against OSAS. I was debating with OSAS type #1 believers (i.e. They believe they can sin as much as they want and still be saved). On another forum (Theology Online), they called me some pretty nasty stuff there. But I knew Jesus wanted me to speak in love in return. So I did.

You said:
The parable of the 10 virgins and John 15 alone are a big sign it doesn't hold. I have never met someone from OSAS who have a good answer to these. They have to ignore them or twist them in a weird way.

Yeah, one guy told me that Galatians 5:19-21 was talking about inheriting (the recruitment) of believers. They were so desperate to defend OSAS, that they said that the Kingdom of God was in reference to believers in this instance. Pretty crazy. But we must love them and pray for them (of course).

You said:
God bless you brother. Hopefully we talk more!

Indeed. I look forward to it, my brother.
May God's love shine upon you greatly this fine evening.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.
 
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