Abortion- is it wrong?

[chad kincham]

So risking the life of the mother when the fetus has no chance of surviving outside of the womb is okay with you?

Abortion on demand is not a medical procedure. It’s homicide.

99.5% of all abortions are not to save the life of the mother, but because the unborn child is an inconvenience.

Is abortion murder?

What do you call the premeditated slaughter of an unborn baby human, by paying money for a Dr. Mengele to take a scalpel, and slice up the torso, the arms, and the legs, then take forceps and crush the skull, so the dismembered pieces can be suctioned out?

By 2 months the fetus has a beating heart. By 3 months it is fully formed, with arms, hands and fingers, legs feet and toes.

I have a sonogram of my son at 3 months, sucking his thumb.

Given that every medical manual of human embryology states that human life begins at conception, it’s an undeniable fact that abortion takes a human life.

Since as stated earlier, 99.5% of abortions are done for convenience, that means 59,700,000 of the 60,000,000 unborn humans who died from aborticide so far, were immorally killed.

In American society we pass laws to protect the helpless and defenseless - . except for the most helpless and defenseless humans that exist - the unborn baby humans in the womb.

Our society has allowed radical leftists to legislate from the bench, and invent a non-existing right to kill the unborn.

 

[Cis.jd]

yet don't see an issue with ripping apart limb from limb, or chemically suffocating or burning alive an unborn baby capable of feeling pain.

of course it makes sense. Depending on how many months, that pain is no where near the examples i've shown in the links. I am highly against murdering babies that are already developed well enough btw.

I'm not pro-choice, I am very anti-abortion (mainly because the 90+% of abortions are from inconvenience) but what christians need to realize is that there are graven circumstances in this world that we should also be prepared to understand.

Another example: pregnancies caused by incest rape. There are stories of daughters being raped by their fathers as a young age; and we all know what happens to the health of the child eventually. How do you judge what is the morally right solution here under these circumstances?

 

[chad kincham]

So, because I agree with God, I do not realize the vast complexities of this evil world? I forgive you for once again assuming what I do and do not know or understand.

So, the pain and suffering that a child must live through if the abortion fails...both physical and emotional is an acceptable risk and their psin is invalid, but at least those that msy have gone on to live happy lives... at leadt they didnt risk the pain and sufferings of this world.

The world is dark and evil, even those with "the best" starting point dont have it easy. We ALL have our demons.... so if the point is to end suffering, why stop at children and not at the goal of destroying all humanity.

After all, its not the animals that introduced suffering into this world through choice... it was humanity.

How is it more complex than murder is wrong?

Not "murder is wrong unless it may mean emotional struggles or hardships."

Again, its human justification of wickedness and our wicked free will that keeps suffering in this world.

Let’s apply the logic that says it’s okay to kill an unborn human;because they supposedly will suffer depression or hardship, and apply it to already born humans.

“Your honor, While it’s true my client killed that man when they violently argued, the victim was being treated for depression and was having a rough life - therefore my client did him a favor, and should be acquitted of all charges of aggravated homicide”

 

[Toro]

of course it makes sense. Depending on how many months, that pain is no where near the examples i've shown in the links. I am highly against murdering babies that are already developed well enough btw.

I'm not pro-choice, I am very anti-abortion (mainly because the 90+% of abortions are from inconvenience) but what christians need to realize is that there are graven circumstances in this world that we should also be prepared to understand.

Another example: pregnancies caused by incest rape. There are stories of daughters being raped by their fathers as a young age; and we all know what happens to the health of the child eventually. How do you judge what is the morally right solution here under these circumstances?

IF you are not a Christian, what you need to understand is this is general theology.....

Not general politics.

You dont have to be a Christian (You said "Christians need to understand" Being a Christian I do not lump a group I am a part of as if I am separate from that group...so maybe I am incorrectin assuming you are not one... if so I apologize.)

The question, being in a theological discussion is

"Is abortion okay" not "can man find ways to justify abortion" to which the answer as you have proven... is "yes" to the latter.

 

[Swan7]

Psalm 139:13-16
Indeed you created my inward parts
you wove me in my mother’s womb.
I praise you, because I am fearfully
and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are your works,
and my soul knows it well.
My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was created secretly,
and intricately woven
in the depths of the earth.
Your eyes saw my embryo,
and in your book they all were written—
days fashioned for me when there was not one of them.

Who are we to play God of who lives or dies?

 

[NerdGirl]

of course it makes sense. Depending on how many months, that pain is no where near the examples i've shown in the links. I am highly against murdering babies that are already developed well enough btw.

I'm not pro-choice, I am very anti-abortion (mainly because the 90+% of abortions are from inconvenience) but what christians need to realize is that there are graven circumstances in this world that we should also be prepared to understand.

Another example: pregnancies caused by incest rape. There are stories of daughters being raped by their fathers as a young age; and we all know what happens to the health of the child eventually. How do you judge what is the morally right solution here under these circumstances?

I hope you can come to see the irrationality of trying to make ourselves judges of "how much pain is acceptable and unacceptable and when does it make it okay to murder children", and such lines of thinking. You will never find an answer.

"We all know what happens to the health of the child". No, we don't. Once again, it is not our place to determine the value of any unborn life. They are all equal.

Why do you keep repeating things like "Christians need to realize that there are grave circumstances in this world"? Why do you assume all Christians are naïve idiots who have no experience or knowledge about the world or suffering?

"How do you judge what is the morally right solution?" Murdering children isn't it.

 

[Cis.jd]

So, because I agree with God, I do not realize the vast complexities of this evil world? I forgive you for once again assuming what I do and do not know or understand.

How do you know you are in agreement with God dealing with this circumstance? I mean why would God want a child to live in such suffering if he knows this what is going to happen?

Here is another example. There was this woman who was in some ways a "wife" of one of the top Columbian Cartels. Obviously she is abused and practically a slave. Now these cartels also abuse kids and raised them into the life, if these kids fail any form of test while growing up, they are murdered in the most brutal ways. Females are more likely instantly killed after birth. The wife gets pregnant from the cartel leader, but she really does not want this child to be born into this. What is the right thing to do here? If you say "call the police" or just "run away" then yes I'm sorry to say that you don't understand the vast complexities of this world as much you think.

So, the pain and suffering that a child must live through if the abortion fails...both physical and emotional is an acceptable risk and their psin is invalid, but at least those that msy have gone on to live happy lives... at leadt they didnt risk the pain and sufferings of this world.

The world is dark and evil, even those with "the best" starting point dont have it easy. We ALL have our demons.... so if the point is to end suffering, why stop at children and not at the goal of destroying all humanity.

After all, its not the animals that introduced suffering into this world through choice... it was humanity.

How is it more complex than murder is wrong?

Not "murder is wrong unless it may mean emotional struggles or hardships."

Again, its human justification of wickedness and our wicked free will that keeps suffering in this world.

Because you are given an example of another form of evil. Here is something that I would like to challenge you on, so you can understand on "how is it more complex".

Go to google and just type the most disturbing things in the Dark Web, and tell me what was the most sickest thing you've read involving children. I don't want to hear "oh sex slaves" because that is not going to convince me you've read what is on there.

Again, I'm not supporting abortion. But my arguments are against the simplistic views christians have against it.

"Is abortion okay" not "can man find ways to justify abortion" to which the answer as you have proven... is "yes" to the latter.

not "find" ways but more of "encounter circumstances". Finding ways implies "selfish excuses" which none of my arguments are illustrating.

 

[Swan7]

How do you know you are in agreement with God dealing with this circumstance? I mean why would God want a child to live in such suffering if he knows this what is going to happen?

We know by reading His Word and spending time with God. His view becomes our view when we focus on Christ, the Light of Hope in a dark, sinful world. Being a Catholic, have you not learned that God knew exactly how the world would become, even before He made it? Because of sin there is suffering, but God isn't so small that He can't save the world through His Son, Jesus Christ. I've actually heard a testimony that a woman became a Christian while enslaved because for whatever reason, her captors bought her a Bible.
You can't tell me God can't deliver people like them when He certainly does.

Because you are given an example of another form of evil. Here is something that I would like to challenge you on, so you can understand on "how is it more complex".

Another form of evil? All evil is the same. Nothing is new under the sun. Sin is the real evil.

Go to google and just type the most disturbing things in the Dark Web, and tell me what was the most sickest thing you've read involving children. I don't want to hear "oh sex slaves" because that is not going to convince me you've read what is on there.

No thanks. I'll keep the lamp of my body clean (meaning, it is a personal conviction not to), but I will certainly pray for the oppressed and persecuted.

Again, I'm not supporting abortion. But my arguments are against the simplistic views christians have against it.

Are you not one yourself?

You may not budge from your position, but I certainly hope you will see through God's eyes instead of your own lens. In turn, we will not budge from God's perspective either. God is Sovereign and Righteous, there's nothing impossible for Him.

Hope and Blessings

 

[Cis.jd]

I hope you can come to see the irrationality of trying to make ourselves judges of "how much pain is acceptable and unacceptable and when does it make it okay to murder children", and such lines of thinking. You will never find an answer.

I don't think it's being irrational, i think it's bringing you to rationality. In your post #58 you avoided to answer the question directly, because you know that allowing a child to live as tragic and graphic as detailed is logically a lot worse. You just didn't want to admit it, which is why despite all your rants/contras on this matter, your preference suddenly doesn't matter.

"We all know what happens to the health of the child". No, we don't. Once again, it is not our place to determine the value of any unborn life. They are all equal.

With children who are products of incest, yes we do. You think there is a chance that an child who is a product of a daughter and her father will come off as physically and mentally normal? It's not about valuing here, it's about preventing a child for experiencing greater suffering. You are refusing to understand that.

 

[Cis.jd]

We know by reading His Word and spending time with God. His view becomes our view when we focus on Christ, the Light of Hope in a dark, sinful world. Being a Catholic, have you not learned that God knew exactly how the world would become, even before He made it? Because of sin there is suffering, but God isn't so small that He can't save the world through His Son, Jesus Christ. I've actually heard a testimony that a woman became a Christian while enslaved because for whatever reason, her captors bought her a Bible.
You can't tell me God can't deliver people like them when He certainly does.

Many christians delude themselves that their views are his views. As if they are so much better because they see what God's sees. Your story is a nice one, lucky her.. her captors gave her a bible. What about the captors who didn't do that and women who aren't as fortunate as she was?

I am a Catholic so i am extremely against abortion, but I acknowledge that there are actual circumstances in where the question on morality is now more complex.

Another form of evil? All evil is the same. Nothing is new under the sun. Sin is the real evil.

Is cussing a kid the same level of evil as raping a kid? Even if you want to think all evil is evil, it's all about the damage after it.

 

[tturt]

God has a plan concerning the time and place of our births:
-“And he made from one man every race of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted epochs and the fixed boundaries of the places where they would live;” (Acts 17:26)

He formed us:
-“For You formed my innermost parts; You knit me [together] in my mother’s womb” Psa 139:13
-“Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?” Mal 2;10
-“The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:44
-"I will put ligaments on you, place muscles on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you, and you will live. Then you will know that I am Yahweh." Eze 37:6

God has a plan for each one:
-“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.” Jer 29:11
-“And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose,” Rom 8:28
-“who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time eternal,” II Tim 1:9
-“I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.” Psa 32:8
-“And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.” Isa 58:11

 

[Kettriken]

We could discuss this better with a few more well defined terms.
There is an embryo, composed of partially differentiated cells.
There is a fetus, such as we would all recognize as a miniature baby, but non-viable.
There is an infant, already born or capable of living outside the womb.

If we speak of aborting an embryo it is clearly a different action than euthanizing an infant. Euthanization is a separate issue from abortion, albeit equally contentious and important.

If we speak about murder, we must also consider the so commonly referenced clause about self defense. If you do not believe that you can kill in any case, up to and including self defense, then you cannot abort a fetus/euthanize an infant for any reason. If you consider self defense a reasonable justification for killing, then it is certainly allowable for a woman to abort a child (at any stage of development) that is threatening her life.

 

[tturt]

How does that compare with the Scripture in post 71?

 

[Kettriken]

tturt, are you referring to me? I was not speaking to your scriptural reference in post 71 when I wrote. My reply was to the thread in general.

To your specific scripture, I would say that it doesn't compare to many of those verses, perhaps aside from the ones regarding formation in the womb, which I was trying to clarify with my post.

 

[tturt]

sorry that's why I came back to this thread - How do our views compare to Scripture.?

Since God forms us and has a plan concerning when and where we are born then why would we need to determine the stage of development, etc?

 

[The Liturgist]

Why did God kill all the firstborn of Egypt? Why did He allow Herod to kill all the male children two years old and younger?

That question is merely an example of the danger of preter-Antiochene historical-literal fundamentalist interpretation, as opposed to the preferrable use of Alexandrian Christological-typological exegesis and higher Antiochene Christocentric historiographical exegesis. Its basically a kind of “gotcha” targeting a subset of fundamentalist-Calvinist Reformed Christians, which is not relevant to the faith or scriptural comprehension of other Reformed Christians like myself as well as our Lutheran, Anglican, Orthodox and Roman Catholic brethren.

Indeed the entire dilemma presented here is in some respects a contrivance; I feel like we should not waste time searching for hypothetical scenarios of marginal morality on which we might isometrically flex the already overdeveloped muscles of “situational ethics”, casuistry, moral relativism and self-justification, but instead seek to develop a robust prayer life to protect us from and guide us through those actual crises of character that constantly confront the Christian of conscience.

 

[coffee4u]

I ask yet another difficult question for me (I've never had an abortion), but let's look at a scenario where if someone is raped by someone they're not interested in or attracted to, that would be horrible, horrifying and disgusting, in that case I would want an abortion. is abortion killing/murder? is the answer obvious? If the answer is clearly yes, that abortion is killing/murder, that is just so horrible! So God would not allow it in this case, why not? Thank you all for your help

To me it is clear. Abortion is murder.
Rape is horrible but it's not the fault of the newly developing person. They didn't ask to be created. Also taking away it's life doesn't erase what was done to the women, it has simply added another sin to a horrible situation. Rape and murder.

Psalm 139:13-16
For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
God sees us while yet unformed.

Proverbs 6:16-17
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood
How is this not shedding innocent blood?

 

[Strong in Him]

I ask yet another difficult question for me (I've never had an abortion), but let's look at a scenario where if someone is raped by someone they're not interested in or attracted to, that would be horrible, horrifying and disgusting, in that case I would want an abortion. is abortion killing/murder? is the answer obvious? If the answer is clearly yes, that abortion is killing/murder, that is just so horrible!

It would be an awful situation, and I suspect that none of us knows how we would react.
Yes, rape is awful and people have said that they would not like to be "left with a reminder of the rape". But the thing is; a) pregnant or not, I suspect a woman would never be able to forget that she had been raped; b) how is it the baby's fault that its father committed that act?
In other words, would killing a child erase the act of the rapist or make it "better" in some way?

I am against abortion, but when a fellow, unmarried, non Christian student nurse became pregnant by a man who had started to hit her, and had an abortion; I sympathised with her. She was very surprised that I did not condemn her, as another (Christian) student nurse had done. I told her that if I were in her position I would probably have done the same thing.
That's not the same as rape because she chose to have sex before marriage - my point is that no one really knows how they would react unless they are in that situation.

I would say; try not to worry about it.
If it should happen to you, get Christian support and ask God how you should proceed. If it happens to someone you know; just love and support them, whatever their decision.

 

[Arc F1]

You're okay with a mother dying?? Ask her husband and children how they feel when her life could have been saved by a surgical procedure. Is it God's will for her to needlessly die because of other people's wrong beliefs?

How do you justify abortion with scripture? What passages are you reading that lead you to this conclusion?

 

[Jaxxi]

I ask yet another difficult question for me (I've never had an abortion), but let's look at a scenario where if someone is raped by someone they're not interested in or attracted to, that would be horrible, horrifying and disgusting, in that case I would want an abortion. is abortion killing/murder? is the answer obvious? If the answer is clearly yes, that abortion is killing/murder, that is just so horrible! So God would not allow it in this case, why not? Thank you all for your help

I was raped after my cancer procedure and if I had a phone in the place I would have called the cops immediately but could not even walk. All I could do was lay there in a puddle of blood and cry. I became pregnant and my family was dead set on me having an abortion as it was out of the question for me to have my rapists baby. I soul searched and prayed and my answer was that this was a child of God if He allowed it to carry to term and also, that this was MY baby. So he was born 7 weeks early to be born on EASTER Sunday that year, and it was the best decision I ever made even though we struggled, he is the most loving, thoughtful, intelligent, funny, incredible son a mom could have and at 19 he is a manager at a big grocery chain busting his butt through Covid-19 and making a difference! It was his idea to do a triple baptism with me and his adopted " Dad"( although he was worried about his hair! See pic. Below) I traded a lot of my life to have and raise him on my own, but the blessing in disguise was unimaginable! So I disagree with your opinion of it being how you judge it to be. I would DO IT AGAIN IN A HEARTBEAT. WITHOUT QUESTION. Thank you Jesus!!