Abortion- is it wrong?

[All4Christ]

Believing that life exists in the womb and yet agreeing that there are some circumstances where killing the baby is more merciful than allowing it to live (in times of horrible situations) is equivalent to agreeing that it is ok to kill an infant or young child in a equivalent horrible situation. What about the young children who were kidnapped and placed in child trafficking? Is it more merciful to kill them when it is likely that they won’t get out? What if they are still a child with a young unprepared mother without support of others? Perhaps even on the street? They are equivalent - with the exception of an arbitrary time that makes life valuable. If life begins at conception or anytime in the womb, then it is the equivalent. This position makes no sense to me, as it essentially confirms murder in one situation while abhorring it in the other.

I cannot imagine the situation one would be in if they found themselves in the horrible situation facing this choice. None of us can unless we face it. However, we as Christians should be helping and be supportive for the mother during that time. Likewise, we should never should advocate the end of life.

 

[lsume]

I ask yet another difficult question for me (I've never had an abortion), but let's look at a scenario where if someone is raped by someone they're not interested in or attracted to, that would be horrible, horrifying and disgusting, in that case I would want an abortion. is abortion killing/murder? is the answer obvious? If the answer is clearly yes, that abortion is killing/murder, that is just so horrible! So God would not allow it in this case, why not? Thank you all for your help

I think there are a lot of living people who ended up being born under circumstances similar to your story. I also think they are glad they were born.

 

[food4thought]

I understand that there may be extreme situations where abortion is, at the least, a difficult moral decision (non-viability of the unborn baby, situations where the life of the mother is in jeopardy), but these rare events are by no means able to justify the morality of the current legal status in America. Florida state law requires that every abortion be given a primary reason (pretty sure that it is the only state with this requirement), and the statistics for that state in 2018 show that 95.4% of abortions were done without any reasonable justification for it. Here is a table (from U.S. Abortion Statistics)

Percentage Reason
.01% The pregnancy resulted from an incestuous relationship
.14% The woman was raped
.27% The woman's life was endangered by the pregnancy
1.0% There was a serious fetal abnormality
1.48% The woman's physical health was threatened by the pregnancy
1.67% The woman's psychological health was threatened by the pregnancy
20.0% The woman aborted for social or economic reasons
75.4% No reason (elective)

Of the 70,083 (!) reported abortions done just in one state in one year (!), about 66,859 had no reasonably defensible moral justification AT ALL. So can we just stop with the red herrings, here? I would be 1000% ok with the law being changed to only allow abortions for the first 4 reasons on the list (I see too much potential for abuse of reasons 5-6)... I'm not saying that I necessarily think that these reasons are morally justifiable, but in order to end the murder of the remaining 98%, I would sleep really well at night knowing I did what could be done instead of holding out for a complete victory. Can I get an amen?!?

God bless you all;
Michael

 

[Jonathan1303]

Some people aren't careful what situations they put themselves in, so I think the first line of defense in order NOT to face a pregnancy in a "rape" situation is to avoid being vulnerable. I understand that violent situations happen. I also know women can be amazingly stupid, like drinking themselves into a haze. And there is simply nothing wrong with being overly cautious in any situation where her drink might be tampered with (even water or soda) or where she could be easily overcome by someone else (like dark alleys, being out with a group of guys she doesn't know, or that sort of thing.) I'm not making this stuff up: there is simply no reason for women to be stupid about trusting strangers yet it happens all the time and sometimes ends up in what she would later call "rape."

Hello,
what do you mean with "call" rape? It is rape.
And since you spoke about trusting strangers.... are you aware that most acts of sexual violence aren´t commited by strangers in a dark alley but by the victim´s family or family friends? Just like murder btw. So should i be overly cautious when having them over?
God bless you
jonathan

 

[Jonathan1303]

But I have to agree with the idea that two wrongs won't right the first one. And science has already determined that the fertilized egg is a separate individual life, so taking it voluntarily would have to be murder, no matter the status of laws.

So eating a fertilized egg as it happens daily is wrong too?

 

[Jonathan1303]

So can we just stop with the red herrings, here? I would be 1000% ok with the law being changed to only allow abortions for the first 4 reasons on the list (I see too much potential for abuse of reasons 5-6).

I have to strongly disagree with what you are saying here.
So the woman´s physical and mental health means nothing in God´s eyes? Just because something can´t be proven it can´t be ignored. How can you ever 100% say if someone is mentally ill? You can?t in 99% of the cases. What if the mother commited suicide if she werenßt allowed to abort? Does that solve anything? Also if you just legally forbid abortions, guess what happens: They are done illegally, the numbers of abortions don´t usually go up when legalizing abortions but stay the same. So there is no reason to illegalize abortions again.
I won´t even bother to say that a woman can do whatever she wants with her own body and life. The man´s life wouldn´t be affected at all most times but it´s a huge deal for the woman, so she should decide on her own, buit i know you won´t agree with such a equalistic statement.
Greetings
Jonathan

 

[NerdGirl]

I don't think it's being irrational, i think it's bringing you to rationality. In your post #58 you avoided to answer the question directly, because you know that allowing a child to live as tragic and graphic as detailed is logically a lot worse. You just didn't want to admit it, which is why despite all your rants/contras on this matter, your preference suddenly doesn't matter.

I didn't avoid answering your question directly. You just didn't like my answer. And I haven't been ranting. My argument didn't change. My preference has never mattered. All unborn lives are sacred and should be protected.

With children who are products of incest, yes we do. You think there is a chance that an child who is a product of a daughter and her father will come off as physically and mentally normal? It's not about valuing here, it's about preventing a child for experiencing greater suffering. You are refusing to understand that.

I'm sorry, but you need to do some research here. You seem to believe that all children who are born of incest will be physically or mentally disabled, and that's simply false. Is there a greater chance of genetically linked problems to such a child? Yes, we all know that. Is it an absolute certainty? No. Do we decide that children aren't worthy of life when they're disabled? Of course not. To suggest such a thing is a affront to the millions of parents who love their disabled children just as much as any other child.

I'm not "refusing to understand" anything. You keep hawking the same point over and over. That we should murder children to spare them future suffering. This argument will never hold water.

 

[NerdGirl]

I was raped after my cancer procedure and if I had a phone in the place I would have called the cops immediately but could not even walk. All I could do was lay there in a puddle of blood and cry. I became pregnant and my family was dead set on me having an abortion as it was out of the question for me to have my rapists baby. I soul searched and prayed and my answer was that this was a child of God if He allowed it to carry to term and also, that this was MY baby. So he was born 7 weeks early to be born on EASTER Sunday that year, and it was the best decision I ever made even though we struggled, he is the most loving, thoughtful, intelligent, funny, incredible son a mom could have and at 19 he is a manager at a big grocery chain busting his butt through Covid-19 and making a difference! It was his idea to do a triple baptism with me and his adopted " Dad"( although he was worried about his hair! See pic. Below) I traded a lot of my life to have and raise him on my own, but the blessing in disguise was unimaginable! So I disagree with your opinion of it being how you judge it to be. I would DO IT AGAIN IN A HEARTBEAT. WITHOUT QUESTION. Thank you Jesus!!
View attachment 287123

What an incredible testimony! God bless you and your family

 

[NerdGirl]

I understand that there may be extreme situations where abortion is, at the least, a difficult moral decision (non-viability of the unborn baby, situations where the life of the mother is in jeopardy), but these rare events are by no means able to justify the morality of the current legal status in America. Florida state law requires that every abortion be given a primary reason (pretty sure that it is the only state with this requirement), and the statistics for that state in 2018 show that 95.4% of abortions were done without any reasonable justification for it. Here is a table (from U.S. Abortion Statistics)

Percentage Reason
.01% The pregnancy resulted from an incestuous relationship
.14% The woman was raped
.27% The woman's life was endangered by the pregnancy
1.0% There was a serious fetal abnormality
1.48% The woman's physical health was threatened by the pregnancy
1.67% The woman's psychological health was threatened by the pregnancy
20.0% The woman aborted for social or economic reasons
75.4% No reason (elective)

Of the 70,083 (!) reported abortions done just in one state in one year (!), about 66,859 had no reasonably defensible moral justification AT ALL. So can we just stop with the red herrings, here? I would be 1000% ok with the law being changed to only allow abortions for the first 4 reasons on the list (I see too much potential for abuse of reasons 5-6)... I'm not saying that I necessarily think that these reasons are morally justifiable, but in order to end the murder of the remaining 98%, I would sleep really well at night knowing I did what could be done instead of holding out for a complete victory. Can I get an amen?!?

God bless you all;
Michael

Unfortunately, all it would take is for women to learn very quickly to claim that they were raped every time they want an abortion.

 

[NerdGirl]

So the woman´s physical and mental health means nothing in God´s eyes?

Pretty sure none of us have suggested this. The mother should be given whatever care and support is required.

What if the mother commited suicide if she werenßt allowed to abort? Does that solve anything?

That would be her decision, and she would be answerable to God for causing not one, but two deaths.

Also if you just legally forbid abortions, guess what happens: They are done illegally, the numbers of abortions don´t usually go up when legalizing abortions but stay the same. So there is no reason to illegalize abortions again.

That's like saying, "If we make murder illegal, guess what? People will just go murder illegally, so there's no reason to make murder illegal." This argument doesn't hold water.

I won´t even bother to say that a woman can do whatever she wants with her own body and life. The man´s life wouldn´t be affected at all most times but it´s a huge deal for the woman, so she should decide on her own, buit i know you won´t agree with such a equalistic statement.

It's not her body. It's a separate, developing human being. How do you know how many men are affected by losing their sons and daughters to abortion? Have you researched the issue?

It's completely twisted that a woman can choose to have a child that the father doesn't want, and HE becomes financially and legally liable for that child for 18 years, but if SHE doesn't want the child and HE does, he has no rights at all.

Where's the compassion for these brokenhearted, suffering fathers who lost their children? The men who feel left out of US abortion debate

 

[Jonathan1303]

That's like saying, "If we make murder illegal, guess what? People will just go murder illegally, so there's not reason to make murder illegal." This argument doesn't hold water.

yes it does since illegal abortions endanger the mothers´life too

 

[Jonathan1303]

It's not her body. It's a separate, developing human being.

...which couldn´t be alive without her body. It´s not concious and in most cases doesn´t even have a nervous system yet. You really think 4- a few thousand cells are just as important as the well being of the mother? Would that make every egg and sperm just as important? Also we talked about abortions in the original post so don´t start arguing with the father´s well being please.
god bless you
jonathan

 

[NerdGirl]

yes it does since illegal abortions endanger the mothers´life too

"Legal murder of unborn children is safer than illegal murder, so we need to keep it legal."

See how God feels about that argument.

 

[Jonathan1303]

That would be her decision, and she would be answerable to God for causing not one, but two deaths.

It wouldn´t be her fault tho. none of it. Being raped wouldn´t be her fault, getting pregnant wouldn´t be her fault, commiting suicide wouldn´t be her fault. She would have been mentally ill and in great dispair. If you´ve never been suicidal yourself you wouldn´t understand.
Bless you
Jonathan

 

[NerdGirl]

...which couldn´t be alive without her body. It´s not concious and in most cases doesn´t even have a nervous system yet. You really think 4- a few thousand cells are just as important as the well being of the mother? Would that make every egg and sperm just as important? Also we talked about abortions in the original post so don´t start arguing with the father´s well being please.
god bless you
jonathan

NONE of us would be alive without our parents. Another argument that doesn't hold up. Are you willing to look Jesus in the face and argue that you know better than He, when life begins, and when you have a right to end it or not?

Read the article I linked. Abortion affects men, too. All of these murdered babies have fathers.

 

[Jonathan1303]

See how God feels about that argument.

One Life lost instead of two.

 

[Jonathan1303]

Are you willing to look Jesus in the face and argue that you know better than He, when life begins, and when you have a right to end it or not?

Yes i certainly would be willing.

What do you know about what jesus thought about that matter anyways?
Do you know what he thought about eating animals? Would you all be Vegetarians if he were?

 

[NerdGirl]

It wouldn´t be her fault tho. none of it. Being raped wouldn´t be her fault, getting pregnant wouldn´t be her fault, commiting suicide wouldn´t be her fault. She would have been mentally ill and in great dispair. If you´ve never been suicidal yourself you wouldn´t understand.
Bless you
Jonathan

The pregnancy wouldn't be her fault, but the choices she makes afterwards are entirely her own.

Would you like to assume whether or not I've ever been suicidal?

Have YOU ever been pregnant? I assume not, since you appear to be a man. Does that mean I can automatically discount and ignore your opinions on this subject? You might say yes, judging by your posts here. But I would say no. You may not be able to directly relate to "what it's like" to be pregnant, but you certainly still have the right to a belief on it.

 

[Jonathan1303]

Abortion affects men, too. All of these murdered babies have fathers.

I don´t care if a life of a rapist is affected by anything i do to be honest. And that´s what the original post was about
God bless you
jonathan

 

[NerdGirl]

One Life lost instead of two.

You truly believe God is okay with "one life lost instead of two"?