Abortion Discussion

[OrthodoxForever]

OK, now you're talking legally. Those are crimes against persons. Legally, the unborn are not persons. The Constitution can be amended if you don't agree. And good luck with that.

it needs to be amended, we didn't used to "legally" consider many minority populations to be full "persons" either. I say its time we finish fixing that

 

[KitKatMatt]

it needs to be amended, we didn't used to "legally" consider many minority populations to be full "persons" either. I say its time we finish fixing that

If you advocate for this, can you also please advocate for better access to sterilization, especially for women?

I've been trying to get permanently sterilized for quite some time now, and am told I need to have at least one child first*. This is a problem because I don't want any children, that's kind of why I want to be sterilized

*This isn't even a legal requirement, all doctors I've visited are just uncomfortable sterilizing women who haven't had children.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

If you advocate for this, can you also please advocate for better access to sterilization, especially for women?

I've been trying to get permanently sterilized for quite some time now, and am told I need to have at least one child first*. This is a problem because I don't want any children, that's kind of why I want to be sterilized

*This isn't even a legal requirement, all doctors I've visited are just uncomfortable sterilizing women who haven't had children.

Well I can certainly see why. Not suggesting you would but some air-headed girl might think "I never want children" and want to be sterilized then 10 years down the line wish they could have children but if they've been sterilized there's no going back. Not to mention every procedure carries risks with it. There is good sense in avoiding invasive medical treatment that isn't medically required.

I think the birth-control implants that last 5 years or so unless you remove them are a better option. At least that decision is reversible. Still, assuming you aren't making a rash decision then the doctor should listen to you.

 

[St_Worm2]

It could trigger bad emotions and memories.

As an abortion is frequently reported to do as well, sadly

 

[St_Worm2]

If you advocate for this, can you also please advocate for better access to sterilization, especially for women?

Well I can certainly see why. Not suggesting you would but some air-headed girl might think "I never want children" and want to be sterilized then 10 years down the line wish they could have children but if they've been sterilized there's no going back. Not to mention every procedure carries risks with it. There is good sense in avoiding invasive medical treatment that isn't medically required.

I think the birth-control implants that last 5 years or so unless you remove them are a better option. At least that decision is reversible. Still, assuming you aren't making a rash decision then the doctor should listen to you.

There is, for doctors, the risk of lawyers and future lawsuits to consider (even when proper waivers have been signed). I suspect this may be behind their reluctance as well.

 

[KitKatMatt]

Well I can certainly see why. Not suggesting you would but some air-headed girl might think "I never want children" and want to be sterilized then 10 years down the line wish they could have children but if they've been sterilized there's no going back. Not to mention every procedure carries risks with it. There is good sense in avoiding invasive medical treatment that isn't medically required.

I think the birth-control implants that last 5 years or so unless you remove them are a better option. At least that decision is reversible. Still, assuming you aren't making a rash decision then the doctor should listen to you.

I understand why doctors may be standoffish, but that does not mean that my requests aren't serious and well thought out. The same is true for other women, and men, who also do not wish to ever risk pregnancy/impregnating. Check out "childfree" forums and you will see many men and women struggling to get sterilized because they do not ever want to have children. Many have been passed from doctor to doctor for years to attempt to find someone that will do the procedure and finally put their anxiety to rest.

In the event that we amend the constitution to protect the unborn, and in effect ban abortions, I want to have access to a permanent solution that will keep me from ever getting pregnant. I am not interested in temporary solutions even now, I want it to be done and over with.

 

[Julie.S]

As an abortion is frequently reported to do as well, sadly

Rape is a little worse to me at the moment but that's my personal view.

 

[KitKatMatt]

There is, for doctors, the risk of lawyers and future lawsuits to consider (even when proper waivers have been signed). I suspect this may be behind their reluctance as well.

That may be, but if we ever get to the point where we change our laws to ban abortion, I want to have the right to rid myself of the risk of ever becoming pregnant.

I want to do that right now, in fact, but as I've stated no doctor will perform the procedure on me.

 

[Archivist]

There is, for doctors, the risk of lawyers and future lawsuits to consider (even when proper waivers have been signed). I suspect this may be behind their reluctance as well.

Yes very true. Suits are still filed despite waivers.

 

[PapaZoom]

Back here in reality, tooth brushes exist. Finding easy way to prevent more complex medical procedures says nothing about the morality of that procedure when it become necessary.

You've said nothing here

 

[PapaZoom]

Not excellent at all. It's actually really stupid. We do care about tooth extractions. That's why have things called dentists, toohpaste, and floss.

yes, name calling on your part sure did put me in my place

 

[PapaZoom]

That's as stupid as implying that people should remove brain tumors by themselves.

you must like that word stupid There is no moral outrage regarding brain surgery so there's that.

 

[jayem]

it needs to be amended, we didn't used to "legally" consider many minority populations to be full "persons" either. I say its time we finish fixing that

Well, don't just be a keyboard commando. I assume you know the process. Work to get a 2/3 majority of both houses of Congress to pass with your amendment, and then get 38 states to ratify it. As I said, good luck.

 

[Mikaeri]

Pro-Choice

1. Abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term and abortion does not fit the definition.

2. Agreed.

3. Yes, criminalizing abortion would not stop abortion. We would see a return to unsafe back alley abortions.

4. In general yes, although I understand that there are certain medical conditions such as anencephaly that would usually prevent a baby from surviving more than a few hours or days after its birth. In those cases I see nothing wrong with allowing the pregnant woman to have an abortion. In any event I believe that the choice should remain with the pregnant woman.

Lets get the facts right Archivist, #1 Abortion is Murder, are you that blind that you cannot see that a unborn child in the 3 trimester is a living and breathing Human being? the only diffirence from a child that has been delivered is that it is still atached to it's umbilical cord..they only reason why they are being murdered by so-called doctors is because of RoevWade and the law allows abortion...excuse my lack of medical terms, that is my only ignorance..thank you.

 

[Archivist]

Lets get the facts right Archivist, #1 Abortion is Murder, are you that blind that you cannot see that a unborn child in the 3 trimester is a living and breathing Human being? the only diffirence from a child that has been delivered is that it is still atached to it's umbilical cord..they only reason why they are being murdered by so-called doctors is because of RoevWade and the law allows abortion...excuse my lack of medical terms, that is my only ignorance..thank you.

Then I trust that you are aware that third term abortions are illegal except to save the life or health of the pregnant woman.

And, no, abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term and abortion does not meet the definition.

 

[Armoured]

Please, please, please stay on topic here guys... I think this is an important discussion for the Body of Christ as a whole along with society at large to have but the last thread addressing it got overrun with an off topic argument and closed... Please stay on topic...

Here are my basic beliefs on the subject of abortion:

Pro-Life

1. Abortion is murder. It is an affront not just to Christian teaching but to the very foundations of modern society. It takes the rule of law and due process and throws both out the window to allow adults, women like myself in particular, to kill their own offspring for even the most arbitrary of reasons. In most cases it's an evil and barbaric practice that in an ideal world should be criminalized outside of extreme circumstances. To clarify what I mean by "Extreme Circumstances" if there's a higher than 55% chance that the mother will die if she gives birth or carries to term, or if there is less than a 10% chance that the child will be born alive. Even at that point abortion is a necessary evil. It is never right, but there are situations in which it is still better than the alternative and any legal sanctions against it MUST provide exceptions to take those situations into account.

2. We do not live in that ideal world. Therefore whether we believe abortion to be right or wrong our time is better spent creating a world in which abortion is as unneeded and uncommon as possible. What will help that happen? Increased access to preventative birth-control, better and more widespread sex education, more resources for pregnant women regardless or age or background, and much needed reforms to the current adoption and foster-care systems.

3. Until the points outlined above in #2 are accomplished criminalizing abortion would solve very little and create more problems than it gets rid of.

4. I do not fly with the "quality of life" "sick kids shouldn't even be born" argument...

Prove that what is killed in an abortion is a "person" and we'll all agree it's murder. Until that time, however, your premise is flawed.

 

[Armoured]

Lets get the facts right Archivist, #1 Abortion is Murder, are you that blind that you cannot see that a unborn child in the 3 trimester is a living and breathing Human being? the only diffirence from a child that has been delivered is that it is still atached to it's umbilical cord..they only reason why they are being murdered by so-called doctors is because of RoevWade and the law allows abortion...excuse my lack of medical terms, that is my only ignorance..thank you.

*Schadenfreude snark*

 

[Armoured]

Nor is "the unborn are nothing but parasitic tumors" which is a lie the pro-choice crowd loves

If you wish the discussion to stay on track, as you said in your OP, I suggest avoiding such blatant strawmen.

 

[KCfromNC]

You've said nothing here

The irony is strong in this post. Too bad it probably wasn't intentional.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Do you not understand the difference between legal and religious?

Yes, I do. Do you think that the government has the moral right to legalize what God has forbidden?