Abortion Discussion

[jayem]

My goal is to reduce abortions, but not by placing kids willy nilly into families who only want the cash. The reason that couples go abroad is because we put too many hoops in their way and in the wrong places. My own parents were denied because my mom was on the part time payroll despite the fact that she worked the same hours and was paid the same as a full time person doing her job.

What are you saying? Is it too easy to adopt, or is it too hard? Are you opposed to adoption? Why would giving women an incentive to continue their pregnancies, and having more infants available for adoption be a bad thing?

 

[Phoenician90]

Murder is a legal term. Abortion is not part of its definition.

Murder is a legal term, but it is not restrictive to being a legal term. Murder refers to killing someone immorally and it being a legalistic term does mean it is only restricted to what is defined by governmental jurisprudence.

Christopher Hitchens (who is pro-life) said something very interesting, he said that if we give any rights of life to a living child then why should a future child not be given the same rights? How do they differ in essence , are you supposing that because a child is not born yet, that fact by itself removes the right of life that the living child possessed?

If we have a moral obligation to save a life of a living child, then why wouldn't the moral obligation to save a future child also be present?

You then said that the age of the parent who wishes to do abortion is subjective in terms of risk assessment and that deciding what is the right age is very arbitrary. What about a child who is in his 7th month inside his mother, do you think that is immoral to kill the child? The child is by full definition "alive" barring his spatial location which is inside his mother. What about at 6 months? What about at 5 months? When does it become moral to kill an unborn child?

 

[OrthodoxForever]

What are you saying? Is it too easy to adopt, or is it too hard? Are you opposed to adoption? Why would giving women an incentive to continue their pregnancies, and having more infants available for adoption be a bad thing?

I'm not opposed to adoption, I'm for adoption. What I'm opposed to is the way our current adoption system functions. The things on which we base a family's worthiness to adopt are completely unsound. Whether they are considered full time or part time workers or if its a one or two income household or whether its a single parent or a married couple are all completely irrelevant.

Are they financially able to take on a child? Do they have enough space in their home? Is there any evidence of abuse or neglect? Do they have a plan for child care when they themselves are not around?

Those are the better questions.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Funny that you say that on the least religiously influenced of everything above.

I'ld rather say that your religion is the prime factor in your ranting against abortion.
That's the core of your objection.

 

[OrthodoxForever]

I'ld rather say that your religion is the prime factor in your ranting against abortion.
That's the core of your objection.

Says someone who doesn't know me at all. I was born with birth-defects. Had they been discovered before I was born abortion would have been recommended. However, despite almost dying three times by age 6, I went on to live a normal life. I also lost 2 friends with similar bur more serious problems who died when each was just 7 years old.

The very first "Pro-choice" person I ever met (who identified themselves as such) decided that my dear friend's memorial service was the appropriate time to rant and rave about how his mother ought to have expected this since he was "a worthless lost cause from the very start" and that she "should have gotten rid of that boy before he was even born".

I was too dumbfounded to react. Not a solitary second of my friend's life was a waste, no one who'd spent more than five minutes with him would think so. No, she was just using him to spout her spiteful hate-filled opinions at the worst conceivable time and place.

That experience is when I became Pro-Life, I learned that I valued life and was diametrically opposed to anyone and anything that devalued it. My friend and I BOTH should have been dead within our first year, but we survived and went on to do things our parents were told never to expect from us. You never know what someone is capable of until you allow them the chance to show you.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Says someone who doesn't know me at all.

I've yet to meet a "pro life" theist where this isn't the case.

The very first "Pro-choice" person I ever met (who identified themselves as such) decided that my dear friend's memorial service was the appropriate time to rant and rave about how his mother ought to have expected this since he was "a worthless lost cause from the very start" and that she "should have gotten rid of that boy before he was even born".

2 things.

First, that's horrible.
Second, you seem to be writing this assuming that I am "pro abortion" instead of "pro choice".

I was too dumbfounded to react. Not a solitary second of my friend's life was a waste, no one who'd spent more than five minutes with him would think so. No, she was just using him to spout her spiteful hate-filled opinions at the worst conceivable time and place.

That experience is when I became Pro-Life

Just because one person decided to be horribly inappropriate and disgusting?

I learned that I valued life and was diametrically opposed to anyone and anything that devalued it. My friend and I BOTH should have been dead within our first year, but we survived and went on to do things our parents were told never to expect from us. You never know what someone is capable of until you allow them the chance to show you.

Every decision you take in life is based on probabilities and expectations.
Having said that, my "pro choice" stance is not based upon potential birth defects or the lack thereof. It is based on choice.

 

[AirPo]

Murder is also a religious term:

“You shall not murder." [Exodus 20:13]

Do you not understand the difference between legal and religious?

 

[Abel Gkiouzelis]

Please, please, please stay on topic here guys... I think this is an important discussion for the Body of Christ as a whole along with society at large to have but the last thread addressing it got overrun with an off topic argument and closed... Please stay on topic...

Here are my basic beliefs on the subject of abortion:

Pro-Life

1. Abortion is murder. It is an affront not just to Christian teaching but to the very foundations of modern society. It takes the rule of law and due process and throws both out the window to allow adults, women like myself in particular, to kill their own offspring for even the most arbitrary of reasons. In most cases it's an evil and barbaric practice that in an ideal world should be criminalized outside of extreme circumstances. To clarify what I mean by "Extreme Circumstances" if there's a higher than 55% chance that the mother will die if she gives birth or carries to term, or if there is less than a 10% chance that the child will be born alive. Even at that point abortion is a necessary evil. It is never right, but there are situations in which it is still better than the alternative and any legal sanctions against it MUST provide exceptions to take those situations into account.

2. We do not live in that ideal world. Therefore whether we believe abortion to be right or wrong our time is better spent creating a world in which abortion is as unneeded and uncommon as possible. What will help that happen? Increased access to preventative birth-control, better and more widespread sex education, more resources for pregnant women regardless or age or background, and much needed reforms to the current adoption and foster-care systems.

3. Until the points outlined above in #2 are accomplished criminalizing abortion would solve very little and create more problems than it gets rid of.

4. I do not fly with the "quality of life" "sick kids shouldn't even be born" argument...

Hi dear! Yes, abortion is murder. Just I find this article by Fr. John Garvey:
ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS & ABORTION – BY FR. JOHN GARVEY, USA

 

[Nic Samojluk]

"Abortion is murder" is not sound information.

Would you edit out the commandment that forbids murder from the Bible?

 

[Nic Samojluk]

No criminalization, and no government involved.

Great idea! Perhaps we should decriminalize rape, burglary, theft, and sexual abuse of children as well. If legalization of abortion can do wonders for murder, it should do wonder for all crimes.

Bear in mind that if someone steals my car, for example, I can buy another. But when an innocent unborn human being is deprived of life, there is no way to undo the damage.The act is irreversible!

 

[Nic Samojluk]

If we incentivize adoption we'll only end up intensifying one of foster-care's biggest problems, too many so-called care-givers who are only in it for the money...

I vote for adoption. A close relative of mine had to go to the other side of the world at great expense for the privilege of adopting three children, and one of them was a special need child.

Yet we kill a large number of babies ignoring the need of infertile couples who cannot have a baby of their own!

 

[PapaZoom]

I'ld rather say that your religion is the prime factor in your ranting against abortion.
That's the core of your objection.

stating one's opinion is "ranting" because? It's a discussion group. We are supposed to give our thoughts and opinions on things. Calling it ranting is name calling. And many atheists oppose abortion as well and use the same arguments. It's not about religion, it's about killing a living human being in the womb.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

Do you in this case believe the rapist should die instead?

No! I didn’t say that. The rapist should be punished—but not with death.

If a rapist should live, more so the innocent unborn baby who has not committed any crime. Killing the innocent is a travesty of justice.

 

[AirPo]

Would you edit out the commandment that forbids murder from the Bible?

Your interpretation of the Bible is not sound information.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

I think rape is horible and there is no excuse for it ever. It's one of the worst crimes there is.

Are you saying that the murder of an innocent baby is less horrible than rape? The victim of rape can, with the grace of God, recover from the terrible ordeal and live an almost normal life. Such a privilege is denied to the innocent child. The act if final and irreversible.

 

[AirPo]

Great idea! Perhaps we should decriminalize rape, burglary, theft, and sexual abuse of children as well. If legalization of abortion can do wonders for murder, it should do wonder for all crimes.

Bear in mind that if someone steals my car, for example, I can buy another. But when an innocent unborn human being is deprived of life, there is no way to undo the damage.The act is irreversible!

All illrelevant to the issue.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

I can be forced to share custody of the child with the rapist, meaning I would have to continue close contact with the criminal who violated my body against my will.

This can be avoided through adoption. An infertile couple will be blessed, and the victim of rape will not have to struggle with the guilt of having participated in the murder of an innocent human being.

 

[AirPo]

I vote for adoption. A close relative of mine had to go to the other side of the world at great expense for the privilege of adopting three children, and one of them was a special need child.

Yet we kill a large number of babies ignoring the need of infertile couples who cannot have a baby of their own!

You don't get to vote on what other people do with their own bodies.

 

[AirPo]

stating one's opinion is "ranting" because? It's a discussion group. We are supposed to give our thoughts and opinions on things. Calling it ranting is name calling. And many atheists oppose abortion as well and use the same arguments. It's not about religion, it's about killing a living human being in the womb.

No, it's not. It's his thoughts and opinions on the post he quoted.

 

[Nic Samojluk]

It is my body that was violated, and any attempt to force me to carry a baby that I never wanted and was forced to conceive is a further violation.

You are forgetting that, according to the Bible, our bodies belong to God. If you do not even own your body, then it follows that neither you do own the body of the unborn child.