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Abomination of desolation
- Thread starter Rafael
- Start date
- Status
Hi Vin,
Very interesting, vin.
You asked:
Are you saying the rapture takes place during the 7th trumpet?
*********************
The coming of the son of man happens at the so called seventh trumpet and at about that time there is a resurrection of the dead.
You asked:
You just believe it was a long time ago?
************************
I don't believe there is a rapture, at any time. People meet with Jesus in the air and remain with the Lord forever, biblically speaking, but as far as entire populations being taken up at the same time is simply not biblical at all, whether seen as pre trib, mid trib or post trib.
You asked:
Who do you think played the part of the two witnesses?
*************************
Zech 4
11 Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?"
14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."
So I would assume it means some annointed were brought up from the tombs. Joshua and David would be my guess, but it really desn't matter to much to me to know the identification. Your idea may be indeed correct. All that matters to me is the detail of what happened there.
You asked:
When did the world after killing them celebrate by sending gifts to one another?
**********************
Much of this part of Daniel I tie in with a battle that occured in BC 168? or thereabouts. The temple was over run by Epiphanes Antichous (can't remember how to spell it). It has been ages since I read about this so I can't provide details, but I remember that I considered this event a possible explanation for certain passages from Daniel.
Chapter 12 of Daniel is the only chapter I have committed to memory because that chapter deals with the exact same event as the Olivet Discourse.
From your post:
Rev. 22 by verse 11 is not dealing with the Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
There won't be any unholy people there.
*********************
My honest opinion is that no one should be allowed to read the Book of Revelation until they can pass a test on the rest of the new testament. Revelation can lead people anywhere religious leaders want people to go. Revelation is extremely symbolic, it takes place for the most part in a vision in heaven and is spoken to John from an angelic point of view. Mortal man can't unravel this stuff without an absolute iron clad understanding of the rest of the new testament.
I'll show you what I mean. Rev 4:1 says this:
1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.
To summarize this, John looks up and sees heavens DOOR OPEN. John ,'in the spirit' goes up to heaven and what follows is what an angel SHOWS John.
Fifteen chapters later John SEES the doors of Heaven open!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yet for many chapters there is no mention.
Rev 19:11
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
Earlier John saw the temple BEING opened....was this all open before John got up there in Chapter 4 or what, was all this just being shown by vision, but was really already over, what really went on??? The answer is in most cases....whatever you want to fit the doctrine you teach. That is why I would prefer that doctrine be determined from the gospel first, Lukes Acts second, the letters third and instead of developing doctrine from the Book of Revelation just use it to add fine details after the doctrine is determined.
You wrote:
So no more wicked people, thus it wouldn't make sense to say -he that is unjust, let him be unjust still
then comes down the new Jerusalem
**********************
Here you see I don't get that the bible says there will be no more wicked people.
Rev 22
15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
((**************
The city of Jerusalem is simply symbolic heaven, outside are those still on planet earth. Everything continues on that way until the planet actually does end, probably many million years down the road.
You mention Titus and his not fitting history. Titus was involved in the destruction of the Herod temple, but this Epiphane is another fellow to look at in this 168 BC situation. I have no real interest in the OT prophecies myself, I prefer to work thru the NT ones. Naturally I look back thru references in the OT to verify my interpretation, but rarely do I get real deep in the OT.
I'm satisfied with Lukes statement that it is the armies surrounding Jerusalem and after all this whole discourse is about when that particular temple would be torn down. Someone in that army stood in the Holy place of that temple and certain people did flee from Judea. That is according to Flavius Josephus. That fits the prediction Jesus made, I accept that.
You wrote:
so trib ends-then comes first resurrection -
We know the trib must end first as -the only other resurrection left is for the non-blessed people.
Actually that would not follow what the bible says.
The trib is followed IMMEDIATELY by a celestial display which includes the coming of the son of man.(parousia) However, as I have stated many times somewhere prior to that parousia the resurrection of the dead occurs. This is NOT only the wicked, it includes those who 'sleep' and that includes people like Daniel. Many here have tried to cling to this resurrection being only for wicked and it just is not biblically correct. That resurrection ,Daniel 12, includes the just and the unjust. The biblical truth shows that the resurrection of the dead at the time of the great tribulation does not happen until AFTER the 1000 year reign with Christ which is shown here in Rev 20.
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)
I have put this verse up a dozen times and it is mostly ignored, but it contains the deep dark truth, There is no rapture , the parousia does not end the raising of the righteous or the condemning of the unjust.
Read carefully:
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
fallen asleep = Daniel among others Daniel 12:13
those alive at the parousia= anyone, righteous or unjust
BUT those alive at the parousia are not raised to righteousness or condemned BEFORE the REST of the DEAD. AND the rest of the dead are raised AFTER the 1000 year reign. Biblically the 1000 year reign with Christ is over BEFORE the great tribulation. That is what the bible says.
I see no reason not to read these words and understand them exactly as Paul wrote them do you?
Justme
Very interesting, vin.
You asked:
Are you saying the rapture takes place during the 7th trumpet?
*********************
The coming of the son of man happens at the so called seventh trumpet and at about that time there is a resurrection of the dead.
You asked:
You just believe it was a long time ago?
************************
I don't believe there is a rapture, at any time. People meet with Jesus in the air and remain with the Lord forever, biblically speaking, but as far as entire populations being taken up at the same time is simply not biblical at all, whether seen as pre trib, mid trib or post trib.
You asked:
Who do you think played the part of the two witnesses?
*************************
Zech 4
11 Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?"
14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth."
So I would assume it means some annointed were brought up from the tombs. Joshua and David would be my guess, but it really desn't matter to much to me to know the identification. Your idea may be indeed correct. All that matters to me is the detail of what happened there.
You asked:
When did the world after killing them celebrate by sending gifts to one another?
**********************
Much of this part of Daniel I tie in with a battle that occured in BC 168? or thereabouts. The temple was over run by Epiphanes Antichous (can't remember how to spell it). It has been ages since I read about this so I can't provide details, but I remember that I considered this event a possible explanation for certain passages from Daniel.
Chapter 12 of Daniel is the only chapter I have committed to memory because that chapter deals with the exact same event as the Olivet Discourse.
From your post:
Rev. 22 by verse 11 is not dealing with the Jerusalem that will come down from heaven.
There won't be any unholy people there.
*********************
My honest opinion is that no one should be allowed to read the Book of Revelation until they can pass a test on the rest of the new testament. Revelation can lead people anywhere religious leaders want people to go. Revelation is extremely symbolic, it takes place for the most part in a vision in heaven and is spoken to John from an angelic point of view. Mortal man can't unravel this stuff without an absolute iron clad understanding of the rest of the new testament.
I'll show you what I mean. Rev 4:1 says this:
1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.
To summarize this, John looks up and sees heavens DOOR OPEN. John ,'in the spirit' goes up to heaven and what follows is what an angel SHOWS John.
Fifteen chapters later John SEES the doors of Heaven open!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yet for many chapters there is no mention.
Rev 19:11
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
Earlier John saw the temple BEING opened....was this all open before John got up there in Chapter 4 or what, was all this just being shown by vision, but was really already over, what really went on??? The answer is in most cases....whatever you want to fit the doctrine you teach. That is why I would prefer that doctrine be determined from the gospel first, Lukes Acts second, the letters third and instead of developing doctrine from the Book of Revelation just use it to add fine details after the doctrine is determined.
You wrote:
So no more wicked people, thus it wouldn't make sense to say -he that is unjust, let him be unjust still
then comes down the new Jerusalem
**********************
Here you see I don't get that the bible says there will be no more wicked people.
Rev 22
15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
((**************
The city of Jerusalem is simply symbolic heaven, outside are those still on planet earth. Everything continues on that way until the planet actually does end, probably many million years down the road.
You mention Titus and his not fitting history. Titus was involved in the destruction of the Herod temple, but this Epiphane is another fellow to look at in this 168 BC situation. I have no real interest in the OT prophecies myself, I prefer to work thru the NT ones. Naturally I look back thru references in the OT to verify my interpretation, but rarely do I get real deep in the OT.
I'm satisfied with Lukes statement that it is the armies surrounding Jerusalem and after all this whole discourse is about when that particular temple would be torn down. Someone in that army stood in the Holy place of that temple and certain people did flee from Judea. That is according to Flavius Josephus. That fits the prediction Jesus made, I accept that.
You wrote:
so trib ends-then comes first resurrection -
We know the trib must end first as -the only other resurrection left is for the non-blessed people.
Actually that would not follow what the bible says.
The trib is followed IMMEDIATELY by a celestial display which includes the coming of the son of man.(parousia) However, as I have stated many times somewhere prior to that parousia the resurrection of the dead occurs. This is NOT only the wicked, it includes those who 'sleep' and that includes people like Daniel. Many here have tried to cling to this resurrection being only for wicked and it just is not biblically correct. That resurrection ,Daniel 12, includes the just and the unjust. The biblical truth shows that the resurrection of the dead at the time of the great tribulation does not happen until AFTER the 1000 year reign with Christ which is shown here in Rev 20.
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)
I have put this verse up a dozen times and it is mostly ignored, but it contains the deep dark truth, There is no rapture , the parousia does not end the raising of the righteous or the condemning of the unjust.
Read carefully:
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
fallen asleep = Daniel among others Daniel 12:13
those alive at the parousia= anyone, righteous or unjust
BUT those alive at the parousia are not raised to righteousness or condemned BEFORE the REST of the DEAD. AND the rest of the dead are raised AFTER the 1000 year reign. Biblically the 1000 year reign with Christ is over BEFORE the great tribulation. That is what the bible says.
I see no reason not to read these words and understand them exactly as Paul wrote them do you?
Justme
Upvote
0
Hi Vin,
You wrote:
Jesus you agree was speaking of a future abomination of desolation time in Matthew 24?
right?
Of course Jesus was speaking of a future abomination.
Here are verses to learn more about it.
Daniel 12:13
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
This means that Daniel was told to go ahead and live out his natural lif until he dies a physical death. When Daniel dies he will rest or 'sleep' in the dust until he is raised to life at the resurrection talked about in Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
This raising of the dead takes place when? Here:
There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.
That is the great tribulation, the one talked about in the Olivet Discourse.
There is only one great tribulation in all of history since the time of creation and there will only ever be one great tribulation....period.
That one great tribulation is preceded by a flight of the people from Judea. That flight of the people will be preceded by an abomination standing in the holy place.
NOw you have printed reams of verses that say the wrong vile person is in Daniel 9,11 or whatever, but completely ignore the plain and simple references in the Olivet Discourse. For instance there is no longer the Holy place. There is no longer that Judea.
Let's go into more detail from Daniel 12 and Matthew 24.
11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
I will deal with PC's argument that the word sacrifice is added in this and other bible versions. There have been a few hundred lanquage and biblical scholers see it this way which is the first clue that it means sacrifice.
When you follow all scripture to it's one undeniable conclusion it is clear that it is SACRIFICE.
I asked before and I don't think it has been dealt with yet.
Are there sacrifices given now?
Is there ever going to be a time in Christianity that there will ever be another need for sacrifices?
When did this sacrifice business end?
The answers are here:
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Would you please answer those questions above?...
I will tell you flat out if you have been called by God to tell us all about this stuff, He would have given you the right answers. If you aren't given these answers it wasn't God that was talking to you.
Matthew 24
5"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Similar words from Luke:
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,
Please note the exact same sentence....Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,
If that doesn't show it to you then read on to where this flight of the people is to avoid the great tribulation/ the time of wrath that was followd immediately by the coming of the son of man.
God should have given you an explanation for that too.
You wrote:
You mentioned Rev. 4.
John is caught up in the spirit
right!
not the body
-the first voice which I heard was
-so not that he hears several voices, but here is letting the reader know that earlier a voice he heard is now heard again by him.
the first voice I heard
[was] as it were of a trumpet
***********************
Never mind, you missed the whole thing in it's entireity..forget it.
Revelation 20
I would dearly love to go thru this in detail. Would you consider doing that?
You wrote:
Rev. 20 is not showing the time of the resurrection of the just.
It is showing the time when that group will take their seats.
***********************
Actually it doesn't show the time of anything technically speaking, it just states a fact.
You wrote:
Rev. 20:3
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them
Okay, who sits on them?
those from the first resurrection
This group is seen by John.
Doesn't say when they rose from the dead, just noting that here is when they take their seats as (judges) and then also notes that they will reign for 1000 years, then comes the last of the resurrection times.
**************************
Right except for "then comes the last of the resurrection times." It doesn't say that, it says the 'rest of the dead.' There's a difference.
You wrote:
Once the had been resurrected in the first resurrection time people take their thrones to help reign -it will be another 1000 years before any one else rises.
And those people won't be blessed.
***************************
Again correct except for.."And those people won't be blessed." Rev 20 does not tell us that. I have shown on this thread a 1000 times that Daniel has to be included in the 'rest of the dead' and there are those raised after that as well.
You wrote:
John sometimes just notes the group he sees and we have to realize this is not the first time they were seen by him.
***************
Based on what? AND why does this matter?
You wrote:
As for the OT- that to me is like trying to put a puzzle together and you never bothered to look at the picture on the lid first. Next you refuse to put the border together, but have one piece and you just keep jamming it into the openings of another piece till you wreck it enough that it appears to fit.
Or it could be exactly like I said.
How can you know God's plan for man and His earth (plus heaven) if you don't start studying the plan from the beginning?
Well, I didn't say I haven't read the OT, I just don't find it interesting.
Besides everything in the NT has to agree with the OT anyway.
Gotta run, take care vin,
Justme
You wrote:
Jesus you agree was speaking of a future abomination of desolation time in Matthew 24?
right?
Of course Jesus was speaking of a future abomination.
Here are verses to learn more about it.
Daniel 12:13
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
This means that Daniel was told to go ahead and live out his natural lif until he dies a physical death. When Daniel dies he will rest or 'sleep' in the dust until he is raised to life at the resurrection talked about in Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
This raising of the dead takes place when? Here:
There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.
That is the great tribulation, the one talked about in the Olivet Discourse.
There is only one great tribulation in all of history since the time of creation and there will only ever be one great tribulation....period.
That one great tribulation is preceded by a flight of the people from Judea. That flight of the people will be preceded by an abomination standing in the holy place.
NOw you have printed reams of verses that say the wrong vile person is in Daniel 9,11 or whatever, but completely ignore the plain and simple references in the Olivet Discourse. For instance there is no longer the Holy place. There is no longer that Judea.
Let's go into more detail from Daniel 12 and Matthew 24.
11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
I will deal with PC's argument that the word sacrifice is added in this and other bible versions. There have been a few hundred lanquage and biblical scholers see it this way which is the first clue that it means sacrifice.
When you follow all scripture to it's one undeniable conclusion it is clear that it is SACRIFICE.
I asked before and I don't think it has been dealt with yet.
Are there sacrifices given now?
Is there ever going to be a time in Christianity that there will ever be another need for sacrifices?
When did this sacrifice business end?
The answers are here:
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Would you please answer those questions above?...
I will tell you flat out if you have been called by God to tell us all about this stuff, He would have given you the right answers. If you aren't given these answers it wasn't God that was talking to you.
Matthew 24
5"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Similar words from Luke:
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,
Please note the exact same sentence....Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,
If that doesn't show it to you then read on to where this flight of the people is to avoid the great tribulation/ the time of wrath that was followd immediately by the coming of the son of man.
God should have given you an explanation for that too.
You wrote:
You mentioned Rev. 4.
John is caught up in the spirit
right!
not the body
-the first voice which I heard was
-so not that he hears several voices, but here is letting the reader know that earlier a voice he heard is now heard again by him.
the first voice I heard
[was] as it were of a trumpet
***********************
Never mind, you missed the whole thing in it's entireity..forget it.
Revelation 20
I would dearly love to go thru this in detail. Would you consider doing that?
You wrote:
Rev. 20 is not showing the time of the resurrection of the just.
It is showing the time when that group will take their seats.
***********************
Actually it doesn't show the time of anything technically speaking, it just states a fact.
You wrote:
Rev. 20:3
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them
Okay, who sits on them?
those from the first resurrection
This group is seen by John.
Doesn't say when they rose from the dead, just noting that here is when they take their seats as (judges) and then also notes that they will reign for 1000 years, then comes the last of the resurrection times.
**************************
Right except for "then comes the last of the resurrection times." It doesn't say that, it says the 'rest of the dead.' There's a difference.
You wrote:
Once the had been resurrected in the first resurrection time people take their thrones to help reign -it will be another 1000 years before any one else rises.
And those people won't be blessed.
***************************
Again correct except for.."And those people won't be blessed." Rev 20 does not tell us that. I have shown on this thread a 1000 times that Daniel has to be included in the 'rest of the dead' and there are those raised after that as well.
You wrote:
John sometimes just notes the group he sees and we have to realize this is not the first time they were seen by him.
***************
Based on what? AND why does this matter?
You wrote:
As for the OT- that to me is like trying to put a puzzle together and you never bothered to look at the picture on the lid first. Next you refuse to put the border together, but have one piece and you just keep jamming it into the openings of another piece till you wreck it enough that it appears to fit.
Or it could be exactly like I said.
How can you know God's plan for man and His earth (plus heaven) if you don't start studying the plan from the beginning?
Well, I didn't say I haven't read the OT, I just don't find it interesting.
Besides everything in the NT has to agree with the OT anyway.
Gotta run, take care vin,
Justme
Upvote
0
vin just ,
reading this is great but knowing which of you is saying what is confusing
i see the word vin does that mean vin is talking or is the paraghaph addressed to vin.?
**********************************
What about the words of Jesus
John 5:27-29
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV
I see resurection in His words.
reading this is great but knowing which of you is saying what is confusing
i see the word vin does that mean vin is talking or is the paraghaph addressed to vin.?
**********************************
What about the words of Jesus
John 5:27-29
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV
I see resurection in His words.
Upvote
0
Hii vin,
It's time to start to deal with the issue at hand. No more dancing off to derail the topic.
I quoted this verse:
Daniel 12:13
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
vin
Hi Justme, I use the KJV maybe you could too so we have the same wording all of the time.
I will try to remember to use KJV.
Daniel 12:13
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
I interpreted that verse as the following:
This means that Daniel was told to go ahead and live out his natural lif until he dies a physical death. When Daniel dies he will rest or 'sleep' in the dust until he is raised to life at the resurrection talked about in Daniel 12
You interpret the verse as this:
Daniel was told -basically this-
live for the end is not in your lifetime, you will die and when it is time at the end you will rise to receive your rewards
*************************
I think you are not understanding something here, but I'm not sure.
"but go thou thy way till the end be..." That 'end' is the 'end' of Daniel, his physical death. This part of the sentence..."at the end of the days" is the time of the resurrection discussed in Daniel 12:2,3,4
You asked:
Do you see these as connector type verses then?
Rev. 22:12 -part
My reward is with Me
Rev. 11:18
time that Thou shouldest give reward
Yes, when Daniel is raised to life THAT IS the reward from Jesus Christ.
You asked:
Wouldn't this be showing at the 7th trumpet is when Jesus returns with His reward and Daniel will be rising then to get his inheritance?
************************
Biblically speaking this resurrection is in connection with the symbolic blowing of the trumpet.
You talk about the 1290 and 1335 day stuff, but really none of that changes anything a far as the bottom line goes.
This sentence from your post is important and correct as I see it.
/then Daniel and the rest of the just will rise at the coming of Jesus at the 7th trumpet -at reward time.
************************
These are the people who 'sleep'. The people who can not have eternal life because they died prior to the parousia and the cross. Yes, Daniel was one of those who slept. It is true that the rest of the just are raised at that time, but it must be understoood that the unjust are raised at that time too.
Now please read this verse, all the words of this verse.
1 Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
That is your KJV bible. Now what would 'prevent' possible mean? Beats me, but the interpreters of NIV and NASB use the word precede.
15 For this we say to you (36) by the word of the Lord, that (37) we who are alive and remain until (38) the coming of the Lord, will not precede (39) those who have fallen asleep.
The Greek word phthano means this according to Strong...
1) to come before, precede, anticipate
2) to come to, arrive at
3) to reach, attain to
I think it is safe to conclude that the scripture means that the people who 'sleep' such as Daniel who died prior to the work of Christ will come to life, as you said, at the coming of Jesus at reward time.
The people who DO NOT PRECEDE Daniel are those ALIVE at the parousia. That is in 1 THess 4:15, as plain as the nose on Jimmy Durante's face.
Any of these people are the REST OF THE DEAD. They are NOT part of the first resurrection.
Can you follow that?
Then you write:
In Daniel 12 only the just will be rising first.
the others will wake later to everlasting contempt
*************************
Pray tell who told you that? It most assuredly IS NOT in the bible. Here we go again, the same idea as Prophecy Countdown.
Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
KJV
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
I can't see how anyone can read two events into this, but let's go on.
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
In the KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
It says "all that are in the graves" , all in the graves are not just, all in the graves are not wicked. I want you to notice that in your KJV Jesus pins it down to an HOUR.
Rev 20
The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
The sea does not contain only the bodies of the just or only the bodies of wicked and each person WAS judged according to what he had done.
Come to think of it what is the point of judging if all the people were already decided. Makes zero sense.
The final straw that destroys any possibility of there being a resurrection of only the wicked is from comparing these two verses:
John 11
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Speaking of Lazurus, Jesus' friend.
John 12
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
There is when the resurrections of the just and the unjust are...the last day!!!
It is fine with me if people feel they want to believe that these resurrections are at different times, I couldn't care less, it is just not biblical, that's all.
You wrote:
Daniel 12:1 begins by mentioning Michael. Have you looked at the end of chapter 10 where an angel promises to return to Daniel later and will at that time reveal the part in scripture (truth) which Michael holds?
The angel didn't have time, off to fight a battle, but made a promise to come back one day and give Daniel insight into what truth Michael holds in scripture.
How does Daniel 11 begin?
Now I will shew thee the truth.
Thus I'm keeping my promise to you Daniel and here is the prophecy of what Michael holds back.
At verse 21 he told him that a vile person will stand up.
All of this is about wars in ancient times, they were fighting all the time. I'm not going to read thru Josephus to find out if this fits. I would just accept that it did because the bible said it did.
You wrote:
when he shall accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people
*************
Did those pushers of the law not consider themselves holy people?
You wrote:
vin
I believe it means -sacrifice
Daniel 9 uses the word -sacrifice not in italics
**************
This is about the daily sacrifice being abolished... so I ask again WHEN WAS THAT?
When you figure that out you will know that the abomination is this far away in time:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
So my questions to you are:
1) when did sacrifices end as far as the teaching of Christianity is concerned?
2)When is the end of the ages? Hint: Hebrews 9:26.
3)When does the 1000 year reign with Christ end?
4) Can you explain Luke 21:20,21 and how they are followed by the parousia?
Justme
It's time to start to deal with the issue at hand. No more dancing off to derail the topic.
I quoted this verse:
Daniel 12:13
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."
vin
Hi Justme, I use the KJV maybe you could too so we have the same wording all of the time.
I will try to remember to use KJV.
Daniel 12:13
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
I interpreted that verse as the following:
This means that Daniel was told to go ahead and live out his natural lif until he dies a physical death. When Daniel dies he will rest or 'sleep' in the dust until he is raised to life at the resurrection talked about in Daniel 12
You interpret the verse as this:
Daniel was told -basically this-
live for the end is not in your lifetime, you will die and when it is time at the end you will rise to receive your rewards
*************************
I think you are not understanding something here, but I'm not sure.
"but go thou thy way till the end be..." That 'end' is the 'end' of Daniel, his physical death. This part of the sentence..."at the end of the days" is the time of the resurrection discussed in Daniel 12:2,3,4
You asked:
Do you see these as connector type verses then?
Rev. 22:12 -part
My reward is with Me
Rev. 11:18
time that Thou shouldest give reward
Yes, when Daniel is raised to life THAT IS the reward from Jesus Christ.
You asked:
Wouldn't this be showing at the 7th trumpet is when Jesus returns with His reward and Daniel will be rising then to get his inheritance?
************************
Biblically speaking this resurrection is in connection with the symbolic blowing of the trumpet.
You talk about the 1290 and 1335 day stuff, but really none of that changes anything a far as the bottom line goes.
This sentence from your post is important and correct as I see it.
/then Daniel and the rest of the just will rise at the coming of Jesus at the 7th trumpet -at reward time.
************************
These are the people who 'sleep'. The people who can not have eternal life because they died prior to the parousia and the cross. Yes, Daniel was one of those who slept. It is true that the rest of the just are raised at that time, but it must be understoood that the unjust are raised at that time too.
Now please read this verse, all the words of this verse.
1 Thess 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
That is your KJV bible. Now what would 'prevent' possible mean? Beats me, but the interpreters of NIV and NASB use the word precede.
15 For this we say to you (36) by the word of the Lord, that (37) we who are alive and remain until (38) the coming of the Lord, will not precede (39) those who have fallen asleep.
The Greek word phthano means this according to Strong...
1) to come before, precede, anticipate
2) to come to, arrive at
3) to reach, attain to
I think it is safe to conclude that the scripture means that the people who 'sleep' such as Daniel who died prior to the work of Christ will come to life, as you said, at the coming of Jesus at reward time.
The people who DO NOT PRECEDE Daniel are those ALIVE at the parousia. That is in 1 THess 4:15, as plain as the nose on Jimmy Durante's face.
Any of these people are the REST OF THE DEAD. They are NOT part of the first resurrection.
Can you follow that?
Then you write:
In Daniel 12 only the just will be rising first.
the others will wake later to everlasting contempt
*************************
Pray tell who told you that? It most assuredly IS NOT in the bible. Here we go again, the same idea as Prophecy Countdown.
Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
KJV
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
I can't see how anyone can read two events into this, but let's go on.
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
In the KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
It says "all that are in the graves" , all in the graves are not just, all in the graves are not wicked. I want you to notice that in your KJV Jesus pins it down to an HOUR.
Rev 20
The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
The sea does not contain only the bodies of the just or only the bodies of wicked and each person WAS judged according to what he had done.
Come to think of it what is the point of judging if all the people were already decided. Makes zero sense.
The final straw that destroys any possibility of there being a resurrection of only the wicked is from comparing these two verses:
John 11
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Speaking of Lazurus, Jesus' friend.
John 12
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
There is when the resurrections of the just and the unjust are...the last day!!!
It is fine with me if people feel they want to believe that these resurrections are at different times, I couldn't care less, it is just not biblical, that's all.
You wrote:
Daniel 12:1 begins by mentioning Michael. Have you looked at the end of chapter 10 where an angel promises to return to Daniel later and will at that time reveal the part in scripture (truth) which Michael holds?
The angel didn't have time, off to fight a battle, but made a promise to come back one day and give Daniel insight into what truth Michael holds in scripture.
How does Daniel 11 begin?
Now I will shew thee the truth.
Thus I'm keeping my promise to you Daniel and here is the prophecy of what Michael holds back.
At verse 21 he told him that a vile person will stand up.
All of this is about wars in ancient times, they were fighting all the time. I'm not going to read thru Josephus to find out if this fits. I would just accept that it did because the bible said it did.
You wrote:
when he shall accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people
*************
Did those pushers of the law not consider themselves holy people?
You wrote:
vin
I believe it means -sacrifice
Daniel 9 uses the word -sacrifice not in italics
**************
This is about the daily sacrifice being abolished... so I ask again WHEN WAS THAT?
When you figure that out you will know that the abomination is this far away in time:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
So my questions to you are:
1) when did sacrifices end as far as the teaching of Christianity is concerned?
2)When is the end of the ages? Hint: Hebrews 9:26.
3)When does the 1000 year reign with Christ end?
4) Can you explain Luke 21:20,21 and how they are followed by the parousia?
Justme
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