Abomination of desolation

[Hitch]

PERF!

H

 

[-777warrior-]

DdLewis86 -

I agree with you 100%. Why do Biblical prophetic writers insists and hopes that Israel would build this temple? God has nothing to do with the old temple, it is in my opinion that the temple now is the believer - while not saying anything to repute the perseverence of the Saints. Almost like a form of goldiness the congregational churchs stray away, they appear to be Christians, in fact they are not. This is in all harmony with the 2 Thess. 2:3 verse of apostasy occuring.

 

[Wills]

The temple is now the Church. Prophecy teachers have all seem to have forgotten that there are a "remnant" of Jewish Christians in Israel. Regardless of whether or not this remnant has been in Israel or scattered through out the globe, there has always been a "Christian Jewish" remnant. They are part of the "Christian Church". That Church is the Temple of God.

It is the Jewish "religion of men" that rebuilds the temple and restarts the sacrifice that restarts the abomination of desolation.

It is the "Church" that continues to recognize the "false religion" of Judaism and give it it's strength through misinterpretation of Christian Scripture. As if we, as Christians, are suppose to somehow respect this "false religion". IMHO

The Church will use this verse as the excuse.

Paul writes, "Lest you [Gentiles] be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number [or fullness] of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26).

It seems this verse is the rock that some Christians use to support the delayed acceptance of Christ by Judaism believers..

What exactly did Paul mean and when is the time of the FULLNESS of the Gentiles? past ?

 

[ddlewis86]

The Church will use this verse as the excuse.

Paul writes, "Lest you [Gentiles] be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number [or fullness] of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26).

It seems this verse is the rock that some Christians use to support the delayed acceptance of Christ by Judaism believers..

What exactly did Paul mean and when is the time of the FULLNESS of the Gentiles? past ?

"UNLESS" you be wise in your own conceits.----unless you posess the knowledge to backup your claim? Also a reminder to be humble in our position. Salvation is a gift from God. Not anything that we have done for ourselves.

I want you to understand this mystery "BROTHERS": A hardening has come upon part of Israel---Those that chose NOT to follow Christ while witnessing His glory in it's fullest while He dwelled among men. They chose to continue to follow the 'traditions of men'

Until the full number of Gentiles come in, I believe this COULD be referencing the rapture OR the salvation of the "predestined" Gentiles prior to Christ returning and saving Israel from certain destruction.

and so all Israel will be saved. I think once the remaining Jews witness Christ descending from heaven with and crushing Israels enemies in an instant, SURELY all of Israel WILL accept Him as the Messiah at that time. I believe it will happen AFTER the Church has already been raptured---which would include the Christian Jews in Israel, but that's another story all together.

 

[Wills]

"UNLESS" you be wise in your own conceits.----unless you posess the knowledge to backup your claim?

I want you to understand this mystery "BROTHERS": A hardening has come upon part of Israel---Those that chose NOT to follow Christ while witnessing His glory in it's fullest while He dwelled among men. They chose to continue to follow the 'traditions of men'

Until the full number of Gentiles come in, I believe this COULD be referencing the rapture OR the salvation of the "predestined" Gentiles prior to Christ returning and saving Israel from certain destruction.

and so all Israel will be saved. I think once the remaining Jews witness Christ descending from heaven with and crushing Israels enemies in an instant, SURELY all of Israel WILL accept Him as the Messiah at that time. I believe it will happen AFTER the Church has already been raptured---which would include the Christian Jews in Israel, but that's another story all together.

So in believing that the Jews will accept Christ after the Church is raptured,
you then support the religion of Judaism because you agree with the Jews
in their delayed acceptance of the Messiah.

They can wait TILL AFTER THE RAPTURE... yes??

You seem to agree with the false religion of Judaism.. from your description of how the majority of Jews will AUTOMATICALLY accept Christ at THE TIME OF THEIR CHOOSING in the future...

It is the "Church" that continues to recognize the "false religion" of Judaism and give it it's strength through misinterpretation of Christian Scripture

You seem to agree with the Church which believes it is all right for Jews to wait for the post rapture period to accept Jesus UNDER PRESSURE of violence.
.

 

[ddlewis86]

So in believing that the Jews will accept Christ after the Church is raptured,
you then support the religion of Judaism because you agree with the Jews
in their delayed acceptance of the Messiah.

They can wait TILL AFTER THE RAPTURE... yes??

You seem to agree with the false religion of Judaism.. from your description of how the majority of Jews will AUTOMATICALLY accept Christ at THE TIME OF THEIR CHOOSING in the future...



You seem to agree with the Church which believes it is all right for Jews to wait for the post rapture period to accept Jesus UNDER PRESSURE of violence.
.

I do not agree with those that have chosen to reject Christ. I do believe, as the Bible tells us, that those who are alive in that day will accept Christ. Those that died prior to that happening are lost forever. They had their chance. I also believe this to be true for those, Jew or Gentile, that do not receive the 'mark' during the tribulation.

Luke 13:25
Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

Death here on earth is the same as the owner of the house closing the door as I understand it. Christ died once. We have all been given that opportunity to accept that or reject that. Those that died prior to Christ's death were given that opportunity at His death as described in Matthew. IMHO

 

[TheFirstNoelle]

Guess what? Protestant Christians were persecuted and killed too. And the Crusades began as a result of Christian defense against Islamic aggression. Imagine that!

Some info from various sites about the Crusades...

...The crusades were a series of defensive wars against Islamic aggression in the Middle Ages and attempts to recapture the Holy Land from Muslim conquerors in order to allow safe pilgrimage and to protect and maintain the Christian presence there. Jerusalem had been Christian for hundreds of years when Caliph Omar seized it, and following that victory, Muslims warred their way into Egypt, other parts of Africa, Spain, Sicily, and Greece, leaving Christians dead and churches in ruins...

...the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands...

...When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years. With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful.

...That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

Ok, it's frightening that people believe this.

My field of study during university was medieval history and literature, and I can tell you that whether or not the Crusades started out as predominantly defensivee, they were an unmitigated bloodbath perpetuated by Christians. Christians who travelled from all over the Empire to Arab lands, urged on by propaganda and the Pope, and committed utter atrocities. Both Jews and Muslims gave a far better account of themselves during the Crusades than Christians did. Muslims treated their prisonsers betters, and Jews committed suicide rather than fight back. "Christians" on the other hand, inflicted torture on old people and babies (several sources tell of Christian knights skewering children and roasting them alive) and killed beyond all reason. The sack of Jerusalem was horrific.

In my opinion, the Crusades are the greatest black spot on the history of Christianity and the Church. It was spurred on by politics and the temptations of monetary gain.

 

[ddlewis86]

Ok, it's frightening that people believe this.

My field of study during university was medieval history and literature, and I can tell you that whether or not the Crusades started out as predominantly defensivee, they were an unmitigated bloodbath perpetuated by Christians. Christians who travelled from all over the Empire to Arab lands, urged on by propaganda and the Pope, and committed utter atrocities. Both Jews and Muslims gave a far better account of themselves during the Crusades than Christians did. Muslims treated their prisonsers betters, and Jews committed suicide rather than fight back. "Christians" on the other hand, inflicted torture on old people and babies (several sources tell of Christian knights skewering children and roasting them alive) and killed beyond all reason. The sack of Jerusalem was horrific.

In my opinion, the Crusades are the greatest black spot on the history of Christianity and the Church. It was spurred on by politics and the temptations of monetary gain.

I have another take on this.

I believe the Crusades were a result of the RCC losing ground during the reformation. I, for one, do not believe that the RCC is the 'One True Church'. I believe that the RCC is the "Traditions of Men" cloaked in the disguise of Christianity. (wolf in sheeps clothing) The "original Christians were NOT Roman they were Jews. Therefore the claim that the RCC is the original christian Church is not exactly true. "Christians" were killed by the RCC as well. Reformists were at the top of the RCC's list. So to say that "Christianity" is responsible for the Crusades is a label that "Christianity" has to defend itself against because of a "religion" or a "tradition", NOT because of a TRUE faith or a relationship with God.

 

[Palatka44]

I have another take on this.

I believe the Crusades were a result of the RCC losing ground during the reformation. I, for one, do not believe that the RCC is the 'One True Church'. I believe that the RCC is the "Traditions of Men" cloaked in the disguise of Christianity. (wolf in sheeps clothing) The "original Christians were NOT Roman they were Jews. Therefore the claim that the RCC is the original christian Church is not exactly true. "Christians" were killed by the RCC as well. Reformists were at the top of the RCC's list. So to say that "Christianity" is responsible for the Crusades is a label that "Christianity" has to defend itself against because of a "religion" or a "tradition", NOT because of a TRUE faith or a relationship with God.

Agreed! To be Christian is to be a follower of Christ and not a follower of men.
Did Christ amass armies?
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Did He display a sword?
Jokn 18:10,11
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
The Crusades were inherently evil and decidedly not Christian.

 

[robnewbold]

The Crusades were, in my opinion, mainly because the major Chrisitian religions have lost track of the true destiny of the Jews. They are the chosen people, and that is what Revelation ch. 4 onward is about. The Church that Christ speaks of building is not a place of worship, but a body of believers that carry the lamp of Love for the world to see. Praise God!

Blaming Christians for the Crusades is like blaming the Jews for killing Christ. It was a SELECT FEW in the leadership that killed Christ, as it was for the Crusades.

 

[Trish1947]

I do not agree with those that have chosen to reject Christ. I do believe, as the Bible tells us, that those who are alive in that day will accept Christ. Those that died prior to that happening are lost forever. They had their chance. I also believe this to be true for those, Jew or Gentile, that do not receive the 'mark' during the tribulation.

Luke 13:25
Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

Death here on earth is the same as the owner of the house closing the door as I understand it. Christ died once. We have all been given that opportunity to accept that or reject that. Those that died prior to Christ's death were given that opportunity at His death as described in Matthew. IMHO

You seem to agree with the false religion of Judaism.. from your description of how the majority of Jews will AUTOMATICALLY accept Christ at THE TIME OF THEIR CHOOSING in the future...

The Jews are ready to build their Temple. They have just finished the High Priest Robe. Take a look at http://www.templeinstitute.org/current-events/ephodcompleted.html to view the robe. Jesus said that "I have come in my Fathers name and him you will not accept. "Another shall come in his own name and him will you accept. We are fixing to see this very soon. And its not the Messiah. It's the false messiah, that alot of people are going to accept. Read the whole site to see how serious they are about this. "Christ shall not come, unless their come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.

 

[Palatka44]

It is being built for the wrong reasons.

 

[Pacigoth13]

The Jewish temple, while it was still in existence was desolated in more ways than one.

Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a pig to Zeus on the altar, Caligula had statues of himself erected in the temple and made people adress him as 'lord and god', the religious Jews turned the temple into a money making industry like religious Christians have done with seeker churches (oops did that slip out?), and emperors Nero and Domition carried on Caligula's 'lord and god' mantra.

The question now does not involve the abomination of desolation in the Jewish temple--but the spiritual abomination of desolations that occur in the Christian church.

 

[robnewbold]

'Spiritual this', and 'Spiritual that'. Where does it end? Just because John was taken in the Spirit doesn't meant that that was all that he saw. Is anything LITERAL to you? Was Christ LITERALLY here or was that just 'Spiritual'. Well, I am 'Spiritually' going to go look at my 'Figurative' Bible, and read about the 'Symbolic' Savior.

And when I die, he will 'Figuratively' tell me that I should have taken the Word of God for what it was, the TRUTH.

 

[Trish1947]

The Jewish temple, while it was still in existence was desolated in more ways than one.

Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a pig to Zeus on the altar, Caligula had statues of himself erected in the temple and made people adress him as 'lord and god', the religious Jews turned the temple into a money making industry like religious Christians have done with seeker churches (oops did that slip out?), and emperors Nero and Domition carried on Caligula's 'lord and god' mantra.

The question now does not involve the abomination of desolation in the Jewish temple--but the spiritual abomination of desolations that occur in the Christian church.

The Jewish temple, while it was still in existence was desolated in more ways than one.

There is a big difference this time.. We are in the era of Grace. And Salvation being offered to the Jews and the Gentiles, by the offering of the Son of God as our sacrifice. For animal sacrifices to restart before the age of grace has ended is an abomination.
No one will be forgiven as long as your sacrifice is a beast. It borders on blasphemy.

 

[rebaa]

'Spiritual this', and 'Spiritual that'. Where does it end? Just because John was taken in the Spirit doesn't meant that that was all that he saw. Is anything LITERAL to you? Was Christ LITERALLY here or was that just 'Spiritual'. Well, I am 'Spiritually' going to go look at my 'Figurative' Bible, and read about the 'Symbolic' Savior.

And when I die, he will 'Figuratively' tell me that I should have taken the Word of God for what it was, the TRUTH.

Out of curiosity how literal do you think theses passages are?


Rev 1:1-3

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV

 

[robnewbold]

It IS blasphemy.. but the point is that it HAS to happen! It is an indicator as to the midway through the 7 years.

 

[Trish1947]

It IS blasphemy.. but the point is that it HAS to happen! It is an indicator as to the midway through the 7 years.

It IS blasphemy.. but the point is that it HAS to happen! It is an indicator as to the midway through the 7 years.

__________________

You are right, it does have to happen.. But you know what really bothered me. When I looked at the guestbook on the "view of robe" site I posted below and saw how may Christians are contributing to the establishment of this temple, it blew me away. I don't understand their thinking.

 

[robnewbold]

Well, if you look at it this way.. and I am not saying that I do, so please no hate mail...

Let's say the 7 years starts in 2013. And lets say that there are 1,000,000 Jews dead in that period of time. Maybe they are thinking that if they can hurry it up a little, they can save half of the lives by making it sooner.

It's hard to explain what I mean, but do you know what I'm saying?

I mean, I pray for the Temple to be built, but I don't think giving money for the Temple is appropriate.. But if they do, it is only going along with God's plan.

That's what Prayer is for.

 

[ikester]

Out of curiosity how literal do you think theses passages are?


Rev 1:1-3

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV

yes....the time is at hand when you see these prophecy's unfolding...