Abomination of desolation

[Justme]

Hi Forum,

About this abomination that causes desolation...or does anybody really care?

Just to refresh the memory this is what is said about the abomination in the Olivet Discourse:

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

I interpret this verse to mean:

When 'you' see this abomination standing in the holy place get out of Judea PDQ.

Jesus spoke these words to these people:
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately,

Don't try and tell me it is Prophecy Countdown that Jesus was talking to because Jesus said:

5Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you.

As everybody knows this abomination starts off a series of events that lead to the coming of the son of man.

Some christian groups can not accept that this abomination stands in the holly place in the temple that was in Jerusalem. Some groups can not accept this because they believe that the parousia is still future. They say Jesus hasn't come yet so it has to be future. Some believe it was past, but other things change after that. Some say it is past and stays past and that's about all there is.

These groups then use various ways to explain the abomination of desolation and other events prior to the parousia.

Some 'reformed group on a website called mountain retreat use a series of 'this signifies this' stuff so they can explain away the abomination.

Example:
The holy place in this time of the Cross is the church, where Satan have been bound from (REV 20). But when he have been loosened, he will come and take over the church. Then Jesus said that "when you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation." Obviously, he did not talk about a certain war or desolation upon dirt in the middle east. It is spiritually discerned that only few will understand (Daniel 12:4). This will not be something easily understood by MANY during the Great Tribulation (or before so-called 7 year tribulation). It will be very few who will given knowledge by God during the Great Tribulation to start seeing things spiritually so those who understand in JUDAEA will flee.

Judaea signifies church at this time of cross where christians dwells. When she have become apostate (study Babylon the Great in chapter 18), we are commanded to get out of there and flee to God. It has to do nothing with national Isreal at all! The context in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 is speaking about the falling of the church during the Great Tribualation.
*********************************

Somebody on that site posted this to 'explain' what all these words 'signify' so they can get to the meaning they want for the 'abomination.'

Some agree that in the Olivet Jesus is actually talking about the destruction of Herod's temple , but use the idea that there will be another temple built and then it will be destroyed again and on and on...

Some groups will tell us that only Luke talks about the abomination in the temple in Jerusalem, the other two writers are talking about a future generation who will actually see the real McCoy.

I think certain preterists say all this happens, but Jesus only comes to judge and destroy Jerusalem and then sometime He will re do the whole thing... some preterists say 70 AD is it and most everything is finalized in that year.

There is another group called Comprehinsive Grace that say that Jesus judged mankind back then and we are all good to go, no worries we will all live happily ever after and nobody has to fear any Hell.

Well, It is something like that, I don't know if I have the details straight or not.
However, for this post it doesn't matter. All I want to do is point out that there is a lot of different opinions of not only WHAT the abomination is , WHEN the thing will stand in the Holy PLace, WHAT the Holy Place is, WHAT is JudeA, what IF ANYTHING IS fleeing and who FLEEING FROM WHAT AND ........

So if we assunme that the bible is correct and has the true intent of the teaching of Jesus Christ it follows that there would be only one correct interpretation of this verse:

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Therefore, I want to make this painfully clear...if there is one correct interpretation it follows that any interpretaion other than that is WRONG.

So anyone writing here has to realize that they have let's say a 10% chance of being RIGHT.

Or is it that it doesn't really matter what the bile really teaches? If a group can read and believe a certain thing and they are happy and comfortable with their teaching, does it really matter if it is biblically correct or not?

In the end does matter to you or even Jesus, if you know the real story of the abomination that causes desolation?

Comments?

Justme

 

[rebaa]

Some christian groups can not accept that this abomination stands in the holly place in the temple that was in Jerusalem. Some groups can not accept this because they believe that the parousia is still future. They say Jesus hasn't come yet so it has to be future. Some believe it was past, but other things change after that. Some say it is past and stays past and that's about all there is.

Do i understand you correctly? You do not believe the return, of Jesus Christ, WILL happen but has?

 

[Justme]

Hi Rebaa,

I would consider that the second coming of Christ for all reading this would be a future event.

I would consider that the abomination was someone in the Roman army that stood in the hoy place of the temple in Jerusalem at the start of the war that ended with the city of Jerusalem being pretty well destroyed. Everyone thinks that the temple was protected by the people and was the final thing destroyed in that war. From what I read the temple was entered by the army very early in the conflict.

I guess the bottom line isn't what I believe, but rather what does the bible say and how much does it matter if we imbellish the bible story a bit?

Justme

 

[cbk]

Hi Rebaa,

I would consider that the second coming of Christ for all reading this would be a future event.

I would consider that the abomination was someone in the Roman army that stood in the hoy place of the temple in Jerusalem at the start of the war that ended with the city of Jerusalem being pretty well destroyed. Everyone thinks that the temple was protected by the people and was the final thing destroyed in that war. From what I read the temple was entered by the army very early in the conflict.

I guess the bottom line isn't what I believe, but rather what does the bible say and how much does it matter if we imbellish the bible story a bit?

Justme

Could be right, but a group of Jews believe otherwise.

http://www.templemount.org/ftm/archeology.html

 

[Justme]

Hi C,

Yes, I think I have read this very link befoe. The last sentence says that G_d is
expecting us to build a new temple.

As I've said before in the new heaven and new earth there is no temple. People have shown me verses that to them speak of a new temple. Fine, now show me verses that say this rebuilt temple is destroyed yet again, a third time. Where is the prophecy of this new temple being destroyed?

As you said they believe this and as far as I'm concerned that is their right...but I'm not interested in their story.

Justme

 

[rebaa]

Thanks JM

lots gets lost with no eye contact or body langauge.

 

[rebaa]

Who built the temples and about when were they built and distroyed?

i count 3 Solomon Zerubbable Herod

 

[cbk]

Hi C,

Yes, I think I have read this very link befoe. The last sentence says that G_d is
expecting us to build a new temple.

As I've said before in the new heaven and new earth there is no temple. People have shown me verses that to them speak of a new temple. Fine, now show me verses that say this rebuilt temple is destroyed yet again, a third time. Where is the prophecy of this new temple being destroyed?

As you said they believe this and as far as I'm concerned that is their right...but I'm not interested in their story.

Justme

There is no scripture which says that it would be destroyed again. However, some interpret scripture to believe that it must be rebuilt prior to the pouring of God's wrath. Therefore, to them, a rebuilt temple is of significance. What happens to the temple after this event is unknown.

 

[Blynn]

The Bible clearly teaches that while there is no such thing as an earthly Temple, an altar, or animal sacrifices in true Christianity (John 4:21, Heb. 7-10), there will be such provisions for Israel following the rapture of the Church (Matt. 24, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 11:1,2. Compare also Hosea 3:4,5 with Daniel 9:24,27). Furthermore, Revelation 20:9 indicates that Jerusalem, the "beloved city," will once again be "the camp of the saints" during the millennial age. The clear New Testament teaching of a post-rapture "holy place" and "temple of God" in Jerusalem, complete with "the altar" (Rev.11:1), prepares us to anticipate a Millennial Temple in connection with the "holy city" Jerusalem, in harmony with Old Testament teaching.


Prophecies of a Millennial Temple:
Joel 3:18 Isaiah 2:3 Isaiah 60:13 Daniel 9:24 Haggai 2:7,9



Prophecies of animal sacrifices in the future Temple:

Isaiah 56:6,7 Isaiah 60:7 Jeremiah 33:18 Zechariah 14:16-21

 

[Justme]

Hi Blynn

From your post:
Prophecies of a Millennial Temple:
Joel 3:18 Isaiah 2:3 Isaiah 60:13 Daniel 9:24 Haggai 2:7,9
**************************

Would Herod's temple not be future to these OT prophets?

From your post:
Revelation 20:9 indicates that Jerusalem, the "beloved city," will once again be "the camp of the saints" during the millennial age.
**********************

It talks of God's people, not necessarily 'saints.' Those from Israel were origonally God's people weren't they? However, they rejected Jesus in that "beloved city."

As you said there is no earthly temple.
Rev 11
19Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

That is where God's temple is at that time. It is impossible for the abomination to get in there. How do the people from Judea SEE that abomination standing in the holy place in that temple? They can't. Therefore there has to be a temple on earth for the abomination to stand in. There was a temple on earth and it was in Judea and it was destroyed as Jesus predicted.

What in the bible tells you that there must be one more temple built? Why can't I find scripture that says it will be destroyed for the third time? If it isn't destroyed how can this verse mean anything?

Hebrews 9
8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

Why is it necessay to build a temple for sacrifices when the ultimate sacrifice is long since been put in place?

I would consider this rebuilding of a temple as being the poorest explanation of the Olivet Discourse, that would be my opinion.

Justme

 

[rebaa]

The Bible clearly teaches that while there is no such thing as an earthly Temple, an altar, or animal sacrifices in true Christianity (John 4:21, Heb. 7-10), there will be such provisions for Israel following the rapture of the Church (Matt. 24, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 11:1,2. Compare also Hosea 3:4,5 with Daniel 9:24,27). Furthermore, Revelation 20:9 indicates that Jerusalem, the "beloved city," will once again be "the camp of the saints" during the millennial age. The clear New Testament teaching of a post-rapture "holy place" and "temple of God" in Jerusalem, complete with "the altar" (Rev.11:1), prepares us to anticipate a Millennial Temple in connection with the "holy city" Jerusalem, in harmony with Old Testament teaching.


Prophecies of a Millennial Temple:
Joel 3:18 Isaiah 2:3 Isaiah 60:13 Daniel 9:24 Haggai 2:7,9



Prophecies of animal sacrifices in the future Temple:

Isaiah 56:6,7 Isaiah 60:7 Jeremiah 33:18 Zechariah 14:16-21

Are you saying there is a different salvation for Israel?

(refuring to this line "there will be such provisions for Israel following the rapture of the Church" )

Down a few more lines

"The clear New Testament teaching of a post-rapture "holy place" and "temple of God" in Jerusalem, complete with "the altar" (Rev.11:1), prepares us to anticipate a Millennial Temple in connection with the "holy city" Jerusalem, in harmony with Old Testament teaching."

Do i understand your words correctly?

This is a temple of God?

Implying one HE honours?

For the offering of animal sacrifices?

 

[JimB92]

On the Dome being the abomination that makes desolute. The Dome is locate above the old temple's east gate. Ezechial, when he was told to measure the new temple was told not to measure the east gate because it will be given to the heathens.

On the year 2004 being significant. Was the 17 year adjustment instituted in the middle ages included?

 

[cbk]

What 17 YEAR adjustment? I know of only adjustments in days, but not years.

 

[JimB92]

My mistake. It was days.

 

[rebaa]

If a day is as a thousand years couldn't that be 17,000 years?

 

[Justme]

Hi Group,

Has anybody considered this?

There was a temple destroyed in Jerusalem. In fact, it was the very temple that Jesus and His friends were talking about in the question asked at Mark 13:4, Luke 21:7 and Matthew 24:3. There was a holy place in that very temple that an abomination could stand in and the people of the province would be able to see it and flee from that abomination and go to the mountains. Josephus says a lot of people fled from Jerusalem to a town called Pella.
At that time it would be difficult for nursing mothers to flee in the winter and the ''law' did not allow walks of more than 3/4 of mile on the sabath.
Jesus predicted an 'end' of AION.(world or age) There was an end of an age at the time that temple was destroyed. It was the end of the age of the 'law', of sacrifices, of the dead being required to 'sleep in the dust.' It was the end of this 'sleep' at physical death because Jesus died on the cross as the ultimate sacrifice and He restored the eternal life that was promised since the beginning of time.

If the temple was destroyed as Jesus said, and the 'end' occurred as Jesus said, then everything took place then because all the things were to happen in one generation.

Here's the biblical verses to back this up.

The abomination being in the temple in Jerusalem. The verse that shows that is:
Luke 21
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
When this is compared to the parallel verses in Mark 13 and Matthew 24 there is no doubt that Luke speaks of the abomination.

The 'end'.

The end must come when the gospel is preached to the world as Jesus says here:

4And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

As far as the bible is concerned the gospel was preached where necessary as shown here:

3if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Remember that the Greek word used in Matthew 24:14 does not mean the entire planet, it is more restricted than that which is also shown as Jesus tells His apostles about proclaiming the gospel,here:

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Further to that we have :
23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Another verse that explains when the end of the ages occurs is here:

26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I get a kick out of the promoters of false doctrine that are only left with the feeble response of 'out of context' when you show them Hebrews 9:23; usually no response other than that just out of context. It fits in fine with the chapter when I read it.

As far as I know partial preterists, among others, teach that the abomination that causes desolation would have physically appeared in the Jerusalem temple 'holy place' in the form of some Roman soldier.

I sure can't think of a single biblical verse that would prove the partial preterists wrong concerning this view of the abomination.

So all this stuff was done according the Jesus' prophecy once, why would God require it be all done again.
The answer to that is, it isn't God who does want it done it is some religious groups who want it that way because they can't get the bible to say what they want it to say, they realize the bible doesn't support what they preach. Well, maybe they DON'T realize that, but it is as clear as lightning in the east to me.

Thank you,

Justme

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

I have some answers to some questions, then I will use the Bible for backup in detail.

Justme, said.
"One thing that jumps out from your post is that the 'second resurrection' is involving only the nasty folk. Where does this come from? What scripture would you use to illustrate that?"

My reply.
There is Bible for a second resurrection of Damnation of the wicked only, and not one "good guy" amongst them! In Rev 20: 5. Says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." After the 1000 years of incarceration of Satan, the wicked are to be raised at the second resurrection of damnation after the same thousand year period, 7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison." Satan leads those deserving of damnation, at Gog and Magog into battle, 8 "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." None of those raised after Satan is released are saved, not one! 9 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." they are all burned, including Satan 9 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Justme, said.
The resurrection talked about in the first few verses of Daniel 12 show that it is a judgment to good times or not so good.
The great white throne judgment says:
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done
Does it just happen that only the righteous die at sea?
If the great white throne judgment involves only righteous where does the bible talk of the sorting process that preceded it. (read verse 13 again)

My reply.

Justme, like Linda8, have the biblical answers right in front of their noses and still miss the point of what the Bible says, let me show you what I mean.

Remember the timing.

The wicked are killed in Rev20: 8, 9.

So that means, no more wicked around anywhere.
Regardless of where folk are raised, you have to have an earth to raise then from. Let me put it this way, no Earth no sea, that’s it, period!

The Bible says. The Earth is to be destroyed in verse 11.

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

What do we have now? No Earth, resulting in no sea, no wicked and no Satan or his evil angels.

Now how then do we read the following verses of Rev 20: 11 to 15?

There is no sea left, it’s all gone.

So this can’t be another resurrection as Justme or Linda8 claim, the dead have been destroyed verses 8 and 9 along with the Earth, "the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. In verse 11.

If we read the following verses as a record of the events leading up to verse 11 it all makes biblical sense, unless of course you like to push a second resurrection of the good after the 1000 years, but then you would have to ignore verses 8, 9, and 11 as Linda8 and Justme do, which ends up bending the intent of the Bible into a personal Linda8/Justme type construct.

The resurrection of the dead wicked and their deaths has been dealt with in verses 5, 8, 9. In 11, the Earth is to be destroyed.

So knowing this we must conclude there is NO resurrection in verses 12 to 15 at all!

How was all this done, that is to bring the wicked dead to account?

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

That makes biblical sense and is straight forward within the intent of the Bible, so why, we must ask does Justme or Linda8 not see it?

The answer is simple, it is a maniacal fixation to be right at any cost and driven by pride, which blinds the heart to understanding the straight forward biblical truth.

They have no argument to put, period.

So, now let’s read what Justme says and see how nonsensical it appears, after a little careful Bible study

She said, "The resurrection talked about in the first few verses of Daniel 12 show that it is a judgment to good times or not so good."


We now know that Justme has ignored verses 8, 9, and 11, to come to the above unreasoned and ill thought out assumption, now you would think that that would be the end of the matter, but no she will either go to ground on that issue like Linda8 did, by laying low for a while or come back with some personal stuff to goad me again into a reaction.

_______________________

Justme, said.
John 5 talks of a righteous and a not so good as well

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
_______________________ _______

My reply.

Again Justme’s reasoning above, is flawed as we have already seen by her ignoring verses 8, 9, 11 and as a result of that flawed approach, has to push the one time resurrection after 1000 years bit, as being something to do with the righteous!
Yes, John does speak of a "time coming" when all both the good and bad in their graves will hear His voice, but he does NOT indicate that both groups are to be raised at the same time which is in line with Rev 8, 9, and 11 where the wicked and the earth and heavens also including Hades and death are destroyed, which is the last great victory.
There is a time when both, will be raised, a time for the righteous at the time of the resurrection of life at the second coming before the millennium and a time for the unrighteous at the resurrection of damnation, after 1000 years, that’s at two separate resurrections.
_____________________________

Justme, said.
These are people who 'sleep' in the dust. There is a judgment which can go both ways.
________________________
My reply.
There is no judgement at verse 12, as we have already carefully studied, it is a record of how the judgement of all was carried out, and those not found in the Book of life will NOT be raised at the second coming. Only after it in verse 5, when the 1000 years in finished to face death in verse 8.


Justme said.
Are the people who sleep in the dust all nasty folk? If so tell me what Daniel did to deserve that? Daniel is in the dust sleeping, remember 1 Thess 4:15.


My reply.

This question is pointless, As we know the righteous are raised at the second coming and reign with Christ a 1000 years in verse 6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Justme mistakenly places Daniel in with the second resurrection of damnation group which occurs after the 1000 years.

She asks me, quote. "Are the people who sleep in the dust all nasty folk?"

My answer is in the timing, those that remain dead who are not found in the book of life stay dead for the millennium!

I don’t place Daniel with that bad group raised after the millennium, Justme does.

She asks me this quote. "If so tell me what Daniel did to deserve that?"

The question is illogical because I place Daniel at the second coming resurrection of life which occurs before the millennium.

Now it is here where Justme and Linda8 start dividing up the righteous into two groups the righteous dead, and the righteous living, as being raised at different times, which is not biblical at all, they claim that the living will not precede the dead and force a 1000 years into that space because they read Rev 20 verse 12 as a resurrection by ignoring the fact that it is all done in verses 8, 9, and there is no Earth left by verse 11. This is what the Bible says clearly. I will highlight words for emphasis only, for the intent and see if you can fit a 1000 years into the following verses, then get back to Rev 20: 12. The resurrection occurs before the millennium.

1 Thessalonians 4: 15.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and REMAIN unto the COMING OF THE LORD shall not PREVENT THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. 16For THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD SHALL RISE FIRST: 17THEN WE which are ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is no 1000 years in those last verses regards the living and dead being caught up together, how can they be caught up together 1000 years apart? The only time a 1000 years is mentioned is regards the second resurrection in verse 5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

Now back to verse 12 which must be a record only, of the events leading up to verse 8, 9, and 11. A record of fairness, and the right outcome of God’s justice system!

Verse 12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Is there anybody found in the book of life after the 1000 years resurrection of damnation? No, there is not one found. The righteous that live through the millennium raised at the first resurrection of life that will be done at the second advent.

Only those that are left in the ground for a 1000 years in verse 5, who are not in the book of life and therefore NOT raised at the first resurrection of life are the "nasty folk." Which means Daniel will be raised at the first resurrection of life, the resurrection of damnation does not occur at the second coming and is not a part of it at all. The resurrection of damnation occurs after the 1000 years when Satan is released to deceive the nations raised after 1000 years at the resurrection of damnation who gather at Gog and Magog.


When the righteous dead precede the righteous living by only a few moments at the resurrection of life, at the second coming, when ALL ARE RAISED, who are written in the book of life at the last trump, the dead first then just moments later the living who go up together. "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM."
That’s what the Bible says and means in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16, 17.


So we now know that the last lot to be raised a thousand years later are the wicked only in verse 12.And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The book of life was checked and they are not found in it and are judged by their works.

Remember timing! All the wicked were destroyed after 1000 years with Satan in verses 8, 9, The sea no longer exists because the Earth was destroyed in verse 11 so this is a record of how it was done only, and it is NOT a resurrection at all, as Justme and Linda8 would like you to believe, but just a record of the whole process previously gone through.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

There were none found in the book of life, so down they go for good!

14"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

The righteous only were mentioned and were raised a thousand years earlier as being part of the resurrection of life.

Rev 20: This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

______________________

Justme said.
I can't think of any verses which would indicate that there is any resurrection of ONLY the nasty folk.....enlighten me.
______________________
My reply.
I can’t find a verse that says, the wicked and Righteous are raised together at one resurrection.

There is a finale resurrection after the thousand years for the unrighteous where they are all burnt to death outside the Holy city of God. In verses 8, 9.
_______________________-
Justme, said.
I think this is a key issue. I will deal with your other comments in a separate post.


My reply.
Yes, I agree absolutely that the key issue is the timing the sequence of events.


Now I will use the Bible in detail to prove the point.
________________________
Justme asked..
"One thing that jumps out from your post is that the 'second resurrection' is involving only the nasty folk. Where does this come from? What scripture would you use to illustrate that?"

My reply.
There are the TWO types of resurrections in the Bible as we all know. John, clearly states this fact. We have the first, "the resurrection of life," where God’s people judge the wicked, and then a second resurrection, "the resurrection of damnation." John does NOT state that the two resurrections are to occur at the same time. He just states that the "done good" types are raised at the resurrection of life, and the "done evil" types are raised at the resurrection of damnation, in that order of events.

John does not say, they shall come forth at the resurrection of life and damnation, which he would have said if they were to be scheduled together, but they aren’t so he doesn’t and is in line with Rev 20: 5, 8, 9.


John 9: 25. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In Acts, the writer again states that there will be two resurrections for both the just and unjust types. Again the writer does not state that those two resurrections will occur at the same time. Again in harmony with Rev 20: 5, 8, 9.

Acts 24:15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
The above uses the term a hope in the resurrection of the dead and both of the Just and unjust.

Our hope is in the resurrection of life not in the resurrection of the unjust. There will be a resurrection for both types and as we have seen in Rev 20 they occur at separate times.
Where can Justme, or Linda8, show us where the Bible states that both resurrections occur at the same time?

They can only do this by ignoring Rev 20: 5, 8, 9, and 11.

Or where the resurrection of damnation is associated with the resurrection of life after the millennium?

There are countless times where the resurrection of life is mentioned without the resurrection of damnation being included,

By Justme’s reckoning, because both are mentioned in one sentence, they therefore are to occur at the same time, well let’s look at a few places where the resurrection of life is mentioned on its own without the other resurrection even being brought up by Jesus Himself.
Luke 14;14. And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Look at the timing sequence.

John 5:29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation


I wonder, does the term resurrection of damnation mean something else to Justme or Linda8?

Daniel also says the same thing, as being about two distinct resurrections, only he states very clearly that the first resurrection of life will occur during the time of trouble (tribulation?) and Daniel says "AT THAT TIME thy people shall be delivered, EVERYONE found written in the book.
Note, it is "EVERYONE found written in the book"
that will be delivered.

The above must also include Daniel.

Not only does this apply to the righteous living at the time of the second coming, but Daniel also states that it includes "them that sleep in the dust of the earth."
So, if Daniel is asleep in death in the dust of the earth, and is written in the book of life he will be raised at the last trump at the second coming, before the millenium.

Dan 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERYONE that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

So the last verse proves absolutely, that Daniel is NOT raised after the thousand years, but at the second coming which is prior to the 1000 years, because the rest of the dead live not until after the 1000 years, Rev 20: 5.

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Daniel now refers to the two resurrections, but he does NOT say that they will occur at the same time. He states what happens at each of the two types of people involved.
Dan 12:2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Because we are told by the Bible that "everyone shall be raised. "AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERY ONE that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK," I must conclude that, that is the fulfilment of "the resurrection of life" prophecies that only involves the righteous.

The first resurrection is complete as "ALL those to be FOUND in the book of life ALL WILL BE SAVED.
There is no hope for anyone, not found in the book of life, and so they remain dead until the second resurrection of damnation 1000 years later in Rev 5 where they are to be destroyed in verses 8, and 9 followed by the Earth in Verse 11.

The next question is, does Daniel belong in the Book of life, having the gift to be resurrected at the second coming of Christ at the end of the time of trouble (tribulation) period?

The answer is yes, because the book of life has been there since the very beginning. "from the foundation of the world," and is a record of all that are entered into it from that time, which certainly includes Daniel’s life span.

Rev 17:8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Being that the first resurrection has been completed and All those in the book of life have been raised, we must now look for the next resurrection, the "resurrection of damnation." There is NOBODY saved at the second resurrection of damnation after the 1000 years as we have studied and proved with the Bible.

What is there said in the Bible, that is good about the second resurrection?
Nothing.
We have established the fact that ALL those dead or alive at the second coming, who are written in the book of life have been raised at the one and only second coming of Christ. None of the wicked are included in the resurrection of life.

We now have to see what happens to those NOT in the book of life.
How are they judged?
How are their works measured. And what happens to them.


I would like these people that state that the resurrection of life between the dead and living in Christ has a 1000 year gap, show the verse that they use word for word without their personal interpretation, it can’t be done because the dead and living are "caught up "TOGETHER." in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: 17THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

To put a 1000 years in that last verse is plain stupidity!


Knowing that the Book of life has existed from the foundation of the Earth and all that have lived in faith, have been recorded in it, and ALL those dead and alive, will be raised by the Saviour at His second coming, what is there left for God to complete?

JUDGMENT of the wicked will proceed by those that were "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast."
This is how the wicked are judged by the righteous during the millennium.
Rev 20.4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What about the rest of the dead, who died before the beast arrived on Earth, that were not in the book of life and remained dead for hundreds if not thousands of years, like those before the flood that were not raised at the second coming and therefore remained dead for the millennium?
They will be raised with all the wicked at the completion of the millennium.


We know Daniel is in the Book of life, because he was promised that after death, he would stand.
Dan 12:13. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the END OF THE DAYS.
The end of the days is referring to Satan’s time period in Daniel 12: 11. Of 1290 days "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
Jesus WILL return at His second advent, and Jesus can correctly claim that "EVERY EYE shall see Him" coming in the clouds, and that includes firstly those raised from death, (including Daniel) then we that are still living, will be gathered with them at His second advent. See Rev 1:7.

However for the righteous living, they will get their reward after 1335 days.

Daniel 12: 12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot AT THE END OF THE DAYS.
Ending at the end of day 1290 days mentioned in verse 11 at the time of the second coming!

Remember the wicked dead, those that were NOT in the book of life, they will stay dead.


Rev 20.5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
We now have TWO distinct TYPES. The saved and unsaved. The division is now complete.

We now have the dead waiting to be raised after a 1000 years for the second resurrection of damnation.
Again as I have already indicated in an earlier post, that the numeral 6 does NOT indicate anything but a reference marker which was added as such.
The first resurrection is completed, when ALL those in the book of life are saved from the second death.

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

We know that in verse 4 of Rev 20. Speaks about the redeemed that live with Christ for a 1000 years. Knowing now that ALL were raised who were recorded in the book of life.
How should we read the following verse?

Do we read it like this?
Rev 20:5. "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection?"

This does not make sense, seeing as the Bible has just told us that "ALL" in the book of life have been raised already.

All the Bible is saying is "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Full stop end of intent and sentence, after the word finished.
The problem is, someone put the numeral. 6 in a place where it can mislead, if some folk think that a number placed many, many centuries after the Bible was written, somehow rearranges it’s intent.

The Bible should be read like this, keeping in mind its intent. That God’s people will receive a blessing for suffering through the tribulation of 1335 days.

Rev 20: "This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
All I have done is ignore a number and looked for the intent of the words.

Are the types remaining dead blessed after the 1000 years resurrection?
No! nobody can call being burned to death a blessing!
Are the raised, 1000 years earlier named in the book of life blessed. Yes!
If you don’t believe that a verse number can be placed in an inappropriate place, such as right smack bang in the middle of a sentence then just have a look at the previous verse 3 in Rev 20 and check it out.
That is why verse numbers should only be used for referencing purposes. and not for a meaning change.

What happens when the wicked are raised at "the resurrection of damnation" when Satan is released?

Rev 20.7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to GATHER THEM together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the SAINTS about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and DEVOURED THEM. 10And the devil that deceived THEM was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The last verses demonstrate that those not at the first resurrection and who were NOT written in the book of life, are raised 1000 years later and are going to be destroyed at the resurrection of damnation, the second death.


So why does Justme state the following? "I can't think of any verses which would indicate that there is any resurrection of ONLY the nasty folk.....enlighten me."

Because she can’t factor verses 5, 8, 9, or 11of Rev 20. She has to ignore them, well I don’t and that is why I don’t have to ask those questions.

There is NO resurrection in verses 12 to 15.

They wicked were reserved for the second resurrection "the resurrection of damnation." After the millennium. Did they gain a blessing?

No, not one of them.

The resurrection of damnation is only carried out once, and is only after the thousand years.

What happens next?
Rev 21: 1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
When we look at what Satan will do we can see that he will try and be like God and even claim God’s mount.
When Satan plants his tabernacle on the mount it is for no longer than 1290 days, and when he does, look out folks.

Daniel 12: 11. And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The persecution will start, for 1335 days and will usher in the second advent and life eternal for those found written in the book of life.

Daniel 12: 12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

As for Daniel being written in the book of life? He will see, as every eye will the coming of the great day of the Lord
Daniel 12: 13. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.