• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Abomination of desolation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Rafael, Jun 26, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

    683
    +0
    Christian
    Private
    UK-Conservative
    Now these are some of the reasons I can’t quite agree with you when you say,

    Quote. "The millennium reign does not take place after the second coming."

    These following quotes are taken from Nelsons KJV Bible commentary.

    Order of the resurrection.
    1st Corinthians 15: 23, 24. But each one in his own order: Christ the FIRSTFRUITS, AFTERWARD THOSE who are CHRIST’S AT HIS SECOND COMING.
    24. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
    25. For HE MUST REIGN UNTIL HE HAS PUT ALL ENEMIMIES UNDER HIS FEET.

    Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.
    "The purpose of the angel is to bind Satan for a thousand years. Dragon indicates cruelty; serpent speaks of guile; Devil indicates him as the tempter of man; and Satan indicates he is the adversary of Christ and His people.


    From verse 2–7 there are six mentions of 1000 years. If this number is symbolic, of what is it a symbol?

    It cannot mean that which is endless, because the Greek language, as well as the Hebrew, has ample means to convey endlessness without ambiguity.

    Thrown into the abyss, Satan is incarcerated, so that he is unable to deceive the nations for the length of that period, namely, the Millennium.

    The sealing is for security, as elsewhere in Scripture. He is adequately curbed and restrained. What a boon to mankind is this! Deception has characterized Satan from Genesis 3 to the time now under consideration (cf. II Cor 4:3, 4).
    In God’s purpose Satan will be loosed a little after the allotted time.

    Why? Simply, God would reveal to us that he has not changed his nature, and that man still is susceptible to his wiles and stratagems. The result of the loosing is indicated in verses 7–8.

    B. The Resurrection and Reign of the Saints. 20:4–6.
    4.
    What was seen in 11:15 by way of anticipation is here realized. It is understood that Christ will sit on His throne and reign as the legitimate Son of David, and that is clearly stated in the last clauses of this verse. Who are the occupants of the thrones?


    From the combined testimony of Scripture, they will be New Testament saints (cf. I Cor 6:2) who reign as the Queen of the King. Too, there will be Old Testament saints who will rule as viceregents of the King and Queen (cf. Deut 28:1, 13; Mt 19:28).

    The martyred through the Tribulation Period, and those who resisted the idolatry worship of the beast, will also reign.
    These will come to life (only a literal, not spiritual, resurrection will meet the demands of the context, in which individuals have been beheaded) and reign with Christ for the Millennium.

    5. The rest of the dead do not experience resurrection until the thousand years were finished.
    Thus, it is pointless and baseless to speak of a general resurrection in order to avoid the intervening period of 1000 years, as amillennialists do.
    The order of the resurrection can be gleaned from these Scriptures: I Corinthians 15:23–24; Revelation 20:4–6; Daniel 12:1–3; and Luke 20:34–36.
    The word first is found in verses 5 and 6. If this means there is but one resurrection, words are emptied of meaning.

    There are definite stages in the first resurrection; the chief one is Christ Himself (cf. I Cor 15:20).

    6. Blessed and holy are all who have part in the first resurrection, i.e., of the righteous. Blessed tells of their condition; holy speaks of their character.
    They are priests and kings (cf. 1:6; I Pet 2:5), exactly as Christ combines the two offices (cf. Zech 6:13). The reign with Christ, prophesied in Old and New Testament alike, will endure a thousand years.
    Over these righteous ones the second death (the lake of fire, vs. 14) has no sway; it holds no terror for them through the all sufficient work of the Saviour.
    Rev 20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


    Daniel 12:1, 2, 3. "At that time Michael shall stand up,
    The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
    And there shall be a time of trouble,
    Such as never was since there was a nation,
    Even to that time.
    And at that time your people shall be delivered,
    Every one who is found written in the book.
    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    3 Those who are wise shall shine
    Like the brightness of the firmament,
    And those who turn many to righteousness
    Like the stars forever and ever.

    Luke 20: 34, 36. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
    35"But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage.

    Jerry Falwell, executive editor; Edward E. Hinson and Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.

    Justme quote.
    Can you see the biblical sequence of events yet? Whether fire comes down from heaven to kill off some wicked in the year 2098 really doesn't matter does it?
    My reply.
    There are very good and sound reasons to have the timing right because when the abomination sits where he ought not, and folk get all the sequencing of events mixed up, Satan will confuse and confound them.
    It really does matter about the sequence, where fire comes down he will mimic this.

    2 Corinthians 11: 14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an ANGEL OF LIGHT.
    15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    These evil angels are going to be walking around down here with us, and the only thing we will have is our wisdom through faith.

    Daniel 7:25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and THINK TO CHANGE TIMES and LAWS: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    We are going to be handed over to him and to his fallen angels. It is going to be scary. I’m sorry but that’s the way it is going to be
    We are going to desperately need the power of the Holy Spirit.

    Rev 13:13. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles.

    These folk that are deluded are going to hammer God’s people and the sad thing is they think that they are on the side of right.

    Matt 24: 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    If we know the timing it is a strong incentive and a builder of faith to understand that we only have to get through the 1335 days that Daniel spoke of to receive our blessing.
    Daniel 12:11. And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
    Justme, quote.
    "The wicked are dealt with, so be it. Whether there is a white horse heading for Armaggedon changes nothing, Rev 20 and 1 Thess 4 lay out the sequence of events. I used the year 2099, but you can use any year you want, the sequence has to remain the same.
    If not, why not?"

    My reply.
    When you say.
    quote. "The wicked are dealt with, so be it. Whether there is a white horse heading for Armageddon changes nothing,"

    It does change things. If Satan "seeks to change the times" he can bring forward a fake battle of Armageddon and those folk who are confused about the time sequence will find themselves deceived and fighting at Armageddon on the WRONG SIDE!

    Yes I agree that 1 Thessalonians 4 does lay out a short sequence but it is at they end, after the decision of what side we are on during the tribulation is made.
    It is going to happen too late, remember what happens before the second coming takes place?
    He will change times and laws.
    Rev 17: 8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and THEY THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH SHALL WONDER, whose names WERE NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    Daniel 12:21. And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

    Daniel 11: 34. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    I am sorry to disagree with you on this Justme, but to me the Timing is very important.
    All the tricks Satan uses will confuse those who do not understand the timing of events and there duration periods and the trap of deception will shut on them suddenly.

    I know this much, strong faith does not like surprises it can shake it and test it and strengthen, it can cause weak faith to crumble because of it or grow.
    We may not agree on everything but we can beg to differ.
    Or it could be that we agree on more than we both realise, I sincerely hope so.

    Maranatha.

    Prophecy Countdown.

     
  2. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

    683
    +0
    Christian
    Private
    UK-Conservative
    Atkin quoted part of what I said from page 26 post 259. He inserted my greeting to Justme then left out these parts that actually answers and covers his personal criticisms of me and his assertions. I will insert his remarks and questions. Between the parts he left out and ignored.

    Atkin’s quote.
    "Revelation 20:7 MAKES NO MENTION of a resurrection. There must be some scales clouding your interpretation of that simple verse."
    My reply .
    I have never ever said that Rev 20: 7 mentioned in post 259 makes any such suggestion.
    This is where I made that suggestion, on the bits YOU left out from post 259!
    This is a part of what I said from page 26 post 259. I will insert Atkin’s criticisms of me and you can see how dishonest it is of him, to have omitted them and why he did it! .

    Part of post 259.
    "1. How can we fix the "time of trouble?"
    "Very easily, quote. "AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED,"

    "What occurs at "the time of trouble?" The Bibles says God’s people are delivered. Bible quote "EVERYONE that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK."

    "3. Are any of the wicked found in the book of life?
    Bible answer says only those "thy people," "found written in the book."

    "Daniel 12:1. And AT THAT TIME shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of THY PEOPLE: and THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: AND AT THAT TIME THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERYONE one that shall be FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK."


    "2. Is there a relationship with the "tribulation" and the "time of trouble?"
    "Yes, ONLY GOD’S PEOPLE ARE DELIVERED "AT THAT TIME."


    "Revelation 7: 14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY which CAME OUT OF THR GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    "3. To whom are the robes given and where are they?
    They are the Saints in Heaven receiving the blessing at the wedding, having BEEN RESCUED."


    "Rev 19:8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for THE FINE LINEN is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SAINTS. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."

    "What are they getting ready for? Armageddon."

    "They are going to deal with the unrighteous, living back on Earth, who were not "caught up with the righteous dead, AT His second coming."

    "Remember only those "in Christ" were risen. At HIS second coming written in the book of life."

    "1 Thessalonians 4: 16. For the LORD HIMSELF shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD ON CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: 17THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and remain shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH THEM in the clouds, TO MEET the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    "So all the righteous dead are raised along with the living righteous caught up TOGETHER." Unquote.

    Now the above, was a clear description of where the righteous were, in Heaven and how they were rescued. Which answered Atkin’s question and makes a mockery of his personal criticism of me, let me repeat them!
    Atkin’s quote.
    "Revelation 20:7 MAKES NO MENTION of a resurrection. There must be some scales
    clouding your interpretation of that simple verse."
    My reply .
    I have never, ever said that Rev 20: 7. Makes any suggestion of the resurrection of life.
    So what interpretation is Atkin talking about?
    He had the answers in post 259, so why did he leave them out?
    Quoted from post 259. Page 26.
    "Here’s what happens to the wicked that were left behind on Earth, and who were not part of the first resurrection of life during the tribulation."


    "Rev 19: 14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

    "Rev 19: 17. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

    "Rev 19: 20.And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And THE REMNANT were SLAIN WITHT THE SWORD of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." Unquote.

    Quoted from post 259 page 26.
    "Have I forgotten anybody? No. The righteous are raised and ALL the wicked are dead, and they will remain dead for a thousand years!"


    "Rev 20: 1, 2, 3, 4 Satan is bound a 1000 years.
    When will Satan and the wicked dead rise?"

    Atkin’s quote.
    "Revelation 20:7 MAKES NO MENTION of a resurrection. There must be some scales
    clouding your interpretation of that simple verse."
    My reply to the same question.
    The righteous have all been raised and are in Heaven.
    Now what does the Bible say about the next resurrection?
    Here is what I wrote in post 259 on page 26.

    "Rev 20" 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."
    Unquote.

    Of course I had to cover what happens to the dead that the Bible says, "lived not again until the thousand years were finished." In verse 5 above.
    So I did.
    Quoted from post 259 page 26.
    "Here’s what happens to the wicked that were left behind on Earth, and who were not part of the first resurrection of life during the tribulation.


    Rev 19: 14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    Rev 19: 17. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Rev 19: 20.And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And THE REMNANT were SLAIN WITHT THE SWORD of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    "Have I forgotten anybody? No."
    "The RIGHTEOUS ARE RAISED ALL the WICKED ARE DEAD, and they will remain dead for a thousand years!"


    "Rev 20: 1, 2, 3, 4 Satan is bound a 1000 years.
    When will Satan and the wicked dead rise?"

    "Rev 20" 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

    The above part of my post, was deliberately left out by Atkin. If there is one thing I can’t stand, it's deceitfulness.


    Atkin! That is just plain dishonest!
    When we read what Atkin suggests next we can see why he left out my above verses and remarks, which clearly shows that the righteous are raised whether they are dead or alive in Christ, and that the wicked dead are left in their graves AFTER Armageddon, until "the 1000 years is finished."
    Now lets see why Atkin was so intent on leaving out my above Bible verses. When he made these comments which I will answer with the very same verses.

     
  3. Prophecy Countdown

    Prophecy Countdown Senior Member

    683
    +0
    Christian
    Private
    UK-Conservative
    Atkin’s next assumption and question.
    "Cannot cut it."
    "Explain how Satan deceives millions in Revelation 20:7-8 in the PHYSICAL PRESENCE OF Christ is ruling with A ROD OF IRON for the previous 1000 years. You cannot."

    My reply.
    Satan does NOTHING, nor deceives anybody UNTIL THE 1000 YEARS HAS FINISHED.
    Rev 20: 2.
    And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    SATAN IS BOUND FOR A THOUSAND YEARS! So why do you ask such a question about Satan deceiving anybody during the millennium?
    The Bible said, as we have just read in
    "Rev 20" 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

    ALL the dead ARE DEAD, and Satan IS BOUND FOR A THOUSAND YEARS!
    How on Earth can he deceive ANYBODY?
    WAKE UP MAN, READ WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!!!
    So why do you ask me this next question?
    Atkin’s questiom
    Cannot cut it.
    "Explain how Satan deceives millions in Revelation 20:7-8 in the PHYSICAL PRESENCE OF Christ is ruling with A ROD OF IRON for the previous 1000 years. You cannot."
    My reply.
    Satan does NOT DECEIVE ANYBODY! Is that a good enough answer?

    Atkin’s quote
    This accuses of Christ of being a weak leader , if Satan can still operate effectively in the very visible presence of Christ, 1000 years after his second advent in Revelation 20:8.
    Have you been deceived?
    My reply.
    Satan is loosed after the thousand years to deceive the wicked who have also been raised after the 1000 years, "FOR A LITTLE SEASON."
    How do you think they got there?
    THEY ARE ALL STANDING THERE?
    IT MUST BE AFTER THE 1000 YEARS.
    "Rev 20" 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

    What happens to them?

    THIS IS A BIT FROM POST 259 PAGE 26 THAT YOU CRITICISED, After you partially re-posted it.
    From post 259 page 26.
    Originally Posted By: Prophecy Countdown

    Hi J.


    The unrighteous people are a part of the resurrection of damnation.
    After the 1000 years all the wicked dead are raised to be burned to death.
    Rev 20: 7.And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    You ask where is Daniel?
    I think the answer to that question will become obvious at the second advent when Daniel is raised as a part of the righteous dead and "we who are alive will be caught up with them together."
    Rev 20:7. And when the THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and FIRE came down from God out of heaven, and DEVOURED THEM.


    ONE RESURRECTION of damnation!

    The BIBLE says that they are "DEVOURED" by fire from God in verse 9. We all have to acknowledge that very Clear fact!

    Rev20: 9. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and FIRE came down from God out of heaven, and DEVOURED THEM.

    So the question is how do we read the following to be in harmony with verse 9 that has them already dead?
    Without seeming to make the BIBLE contradict itself?

    We can’t refute Rev 20: 9. It is there in black and white, and it has to be accepted and dealt with.

    John sees HIS throne with HIM on it. It clearly states "from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away." The Earth is now GONE, because in the next verse we read these words. "There was found no place for them." We MUST understand that there is nothing left of the Earth or it’s surrounds.
    Earlier in Rev 20: 9.we read that they were gathered at Gog and Magog.
    Where they were destroyed by fire.

    So what we have is nothing of Earth remains it is Gone and the next verses must be a record of the events that have TAKEN place BEFORE the world was gone!

    Bible.20 11." Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them."

    Knowing that the Earth and it’s surrounding heavens are no longer here and neither are the unrighteous, because they HAVE BEEN burned to nothing in verse 9.
    I have to ask the next question IN THE PAST TENSE, and read the next verses as being a record of what happened before and how they were judged before their destruction by fire.
    THERE CONNOT BE TWO RESURRECTIONS FOR THE WICKED after reading their fate in verse 9.

    Question? How WERE the unrighteous JUDGED BEFORE they were devoured by fire?

    Bible answer. 12. "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."

    The book of life was there open, to see the fact that the wicked were NOT written in that book.

    Question? From where did all the dead come from that were destroyed by fire in verse 9?
    Knowing the Earth is mow gone, this next verse must be an enlargement of what TOOK place.

    Bible answer 13. "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works."

    So NOW I am told and can see how the fairness of God’s judgements is to be carried out and how the process will be laid out for us all to see and to be able to appreciate His absolute honesty in judging everyone.

    "My next question is to ask about Hades and the second death and where it went?"

    "Bible answer. 14. "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

    "I also wanted to know why the wicked were destroyed by fire in verse 9 along with Satan in verse 10, so I asked the next question."

    "Question? So were all those that died by fire after the thousand years, in verse nine not found in the book of life? I received the answer that anyone NOT in the book of life "was cast into the lake of fire."

    "Bible answer. 15. "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

    "I read the Bible that way so I can include Rev 20: 9 with the following verses 11, 12, 13, 14, 15. Without any problems at all with the Bible seeming to clash with itself or having to ignore the clear destruction of the wicked in verse 9 to make it all fit."

    "There are NO "two resurrections," of the wicked and I have never ever implied that at all, because the Bible says there is only one resurrection for the wicked after the thousand years."

    "I have never ever said that the "wicked were to be resurrected again, twice to face the Great WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT in Rev 20 12 – 14," because it isn’t stated in the Bible."


    "But we have been over this before. Justme."

    "Maranatha,
    Prophecy Countdown"

    Unquote.
    That was the post I sent to Justme, and for Atkin to cut it up and leave out sections that deal with the very questions and critical remarks he makes of it, is not acceptable

    Maranatha.

    Prophecy Countdown.

     
  4. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi PC,

    I have a very hard time answering your multi-posts, I lose them in pages of the thread and God knows what all. I try to respond, but who knows whether I get to the things important to you or not.

    Well, there you are.

    The first resurrection and after that first resurrection the raising of the saints at the second coming.

    Really good.

    You wrote:
    I said Daniel was a part of the first resurrection at the second coming. I did not say that he would be raised at the resurrection of the Christ.

    Oh my goodness, now what is going on. I have quoted two sentences and we have a conflict.

    I have to know this...are you cognisant of what is being said here, are you able to comprehend? There is no problem, I will discuss this with you as long as you want, but I have to know what level we are on.

    Thank you

    Justme
     
  5. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    I am surprised that you cannot see how a physical bodied man can leave Earth and be unnoticed for 2000 years.
    JESUS existed before Adam and Eve and was UNNOTICED for over 2500 years before being noticed by man in the 1st century in Bethlehem, Jerusalem etc so be not amazed at how a physical man returns visibly to Earth.
    Colossians 1:13 into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning,

    Of course, Christ was seen by Daniel before the time of Bethlehem and by Joshua even before Israel was established under KIng David

    He actually touched Daniel and was not some air spirit.
    example Daniel 10: 5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:
    6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
    7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
    8 Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
    9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
    10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

    JUST TO KNOW DANIEL CALLS HIM MY LORD
    DANIEL 10:16 O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
    17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

    So why are you asking why Christ cannot be unnoticed for over 2000 years when that same Christ was UNNOTICED by majority of humans since Adam and Eve were created.
     
  6. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Again, I must say I am very surprised that you are amazed by a physical bodied man floating in clouds.

    YOU are a CHRISTIAN familiar with the New Testament hence you are already aware of this below
    JESUS IN FLESH BODY WALKED ON WATER.. or do you think it is a lie?
    EVEN PETER IN HIS FLESH BODY, WALKED ON WATER TILL HE LOST FAITH.... and was HELD UP BY JESUS.

    Why are you wondering about physical bodies floating when Jesus DELIBERATELY SHOWED WHAT HUMAN FLESH BODIES ARE CAPABLE OF?? Now you see why Jesus in his flesh body did many miracles AND TOLD HUMANS THAT IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO FAITH.. see what He told Peter when Peter started sinking..

    MATTHEW 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
    26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
    27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
    28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
    29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
    30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
    31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

    WHY DO YOU DOUBT , WHY??
     
  7. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    I did not ask you about anything DURING THE 1000 YEARS, read before answering.

    You did not answer my question. HOW DOES SATAN DECEIVE MILLIONS IN THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST AFTER THE 1000 YEARS???

    AFTER THE 1000 YEARS HAVE ENDED, CHRIST IS STILL ON EARTH.
    CHRIST WHO IS GOD IN FLESH IS ON EARTH AFTER THE 1000 YEARS

    YES OR NO???

    YES, BECAUSE CHRIST WOULD HAVE BEEN RULING FOR 1000 YEARS TILL AFTER THJE 1000 YEARS.

    Anyone who says Christ is ON EARTH, VISIBLY during and AFTER THE 1000 YEARS has to then explain WHY CHRIST IS SO WEAK TO ALLOW SATAN TO DECEIVE MILLIONS AFTER THE 1000 YEARS.

    "Explain how Satan deceives millions in Revelation 20:7-8 AFTER THE 1000 YEARS in the PHYSICAL PRESENCE OF Christ is ruling with A ROD OF IRON for the previous 1000 years.

    You cannot."

    Unless Christ IS INVISIBLE after the 1000 years, just before HE RETURNS...visibly IN REV 20:8

    SATAN CAN ONLY DECEIVE MILLIONS IF CHRIST IS INVISIBLE

    REVELATION 20:1-3 DOES NOT FOLLOW CHRONOLOGICALLY AFTER REVELATION 19:11-15
     
  8. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

    +88
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    I honestly think that this will be the time that we will sit in judgement over the fallen angels.
    1 Corinthians 6:2,3
    2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
    3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    The fact that there is flesly man still on the earth during the 1000 year reign will serve to inforce the scripture that "Flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God".

    This representation of man will be the remnant that did not take the mark and survived the Tribulation and "Wrath of God". At the beginning the numbers that survived will be small. During the 1000 years they will multiply for no one will die and none will face illness.

    If you'll note that Jesus will have to rule with a rod of iron to keep them in line. Though Satan is not around to confound them they are still flesh with a sin nature. It is true that man is rebelious. He does not need Satan to urge him to be aganist what Jesus wants to do.

    The whole race of men will will fall right in line with Satan, when he is loosed from the bottomless pit, in a heart beat.

    You see, Satan promises man that he can be as God and being as God means that man can do whatever is purposed on his heart with none to stop him. But man's heart is bent toward evil. God can not alow this.

    This is why man is so easly led away by Satan. It has nothing to do with any weakness of Christ. Even if Christ is here in a physical body for them to see they will rebel. None of them will be saved.

    We must prepare for the day that Christ comes now. There will be no I'll just not take the number and not bow to the anti-christ and survive it without making a commitment to Christ. When Christ takes His Church out it will be too late for any one that survives. There will be no more ressurection of the Saints. The next ressurection is for death, Hell and the grave to be cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 year reign. This is the second death.

    Remember this, when the Church is gone there will be no flesh saved. Though those that survive will live 1000 years they will not enter the eternal kingdom.
     
  9. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    HI Atkin,

    Of course, Jesus was ...in the beginning...
    John 1:1.......

    In all those years He was invisible or at least never seen.

    John 1:18

    No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[ 1:18 Or the Only Begotten] ,[ 1:18 Some manuscripts but the only (or only begotten) Son who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

    These are all verses that I choose to deal with in an attempt to determine what the bible really says.

    If one doesn't include ALL the verses and accept what they say it all becomes a waste of time in my opinion.

    Really.
    No I have no problem with Jesus walking on water or floating on clouds or any other things He did, because Jesus is God, but to consider John Hagee will ever float on a cloud in a strickly physical form is a stretch I am not willing to make.

    Justme
     
  10. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Hi Justme,

    I see you now accept that it is very easy for Jesus to remain invisible for over 2000 years and return VISIBLY... for is that TOO DIFFICULT for God to do, seeing that IT HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE in the 1st advent?

    John Hagee does not have to float in the clouds. No, that to me is not the essence of what Christ's presence will bring. No, John Hagee and the hundreds of millions of humans on Earth will cease any errors that they may have in their behaviour and become humble and pure in a manner like angels, with no manner of turmoil and wars and terror on the Planet.

    Have you ever thought about this picture of Earth
    Not a drop of cocaine
    Not a single murder in any nation
    Not a single prostitute anywhere
    Not a single malnourished child

    etc

    Are you aware of the fact that humans can easily achieve this, provided they are set free from errors in various theologies, scientific theories, cultural practices, accepted negativbe social norms etc
    Of course, humans hold onto their ways due to human desire to stick to what they find carnal comfort with hence CHRIST will establish this with a rod of iron.
     
  11. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Interesting post but I need clarification regarding those on Earth during the 1000 years.

    Christ will be on Earth and surely CHRIST RETURNS with the Church back to Earth after the rapture and vials of God. That is, the believers come back to their original nations and will be mixed with the remnant that happen to survive the wrath of God.
    Then believers must return to Earth after they are raptured to live through the Millenial Reign with Christ, yes?
    Would there be conflicts during the 1000 years between believers who return back to Earth after the rapture and their neighbours who may happen to be people of flesh who were not raptured ?

    I see Christ's return with the Church here...
    Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
     
  12. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Atkin,

    Maybe Palatka is busy. May I sneak in here again?

    Sorry, biblically no. The 1000 year reign with Christ is 100% for sure not on earth, period. The 1000 year reign is BEFORE the parousia, BEFORE jesus returns, Jesus is still at the right hand of God or still in Heaven when this 1000 year reign takes place. If they are going to reign WITH Christ it has to occur where Christ is.. at that time He is IN heaven.

    That is what I have been two weeks trying to explain. Rev 20:4,5,6 and 1Thess 4:15.

    Justme
     
  13. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    But you claim the first resurrection has not taken place or are you changing your mind again. HAS IT TAKEN PLACE or not??

    Has the first resurrection taken place AND IF YES when did it take place BEFORE THE 1000 year reign begun.?

    You cannot say the 1000 year reign is currently taking place AND DENY that the first resurrection has not taken place.

    1. The 1000 years DOES NOT START until after the first resurrection Revelation 20:4

    Of course you must also see that a group of CHRISTIANS believe THE 1000 YEAR REIGN STARTS AFTER 1Thess 4:15-17 takes place... not before.

    Christ returns BEFORE THE 1000 years or Christ returns pre millenium.

    Of course if you can biblically prove THAT THE FIRST RESURRECTION HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, THEN you can press a case that the 1000 year reign has already begun with the ascension of Christ.
     
  14. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Atkin,

    I have never claimed any timing of the first resurrection and I won't.

    The 1000 year reign with Christ IS the first resurrection.
    I am just putting forth the sequence of events from scripture and biblically speaking it is impossible for the 1000 year reign(first resurrection) with Christ to occur on earth. It has to happen where Christ is which is in Heaven. Christ is in Heaven until parousia and the bible tells us the reign with Christ is before the parousia. When the parousia is doesn't matter, the sequense of events are laid out in scripture.

    You wrote:
    Of course if you can biblically prove THAT THE FIRST RESURRECTION HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, THEN you can press a case that the 1000 year reign has already begun with the ascension of Christ.
    ************************

    The first resurrection, Rev 20:4 and 6, did not start with the ascension.

    Justme
     
  15. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

    +88
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Thanks for the reply Atkin, I have enjoyed many of your posts here and in other threads.
    I see Christ coming back with the Saints also, of which I know I'll partake in. As will many of this Forum.
    As far as getting along with fleshly neighbors during the 1000 years I don't think that is going to be too much of a problem. We will be busy sitting as judges rendering sentences to the fallen angelic/demonic hoard that fallows Satan. The flesh that survived the wrath and tribulation will be too busy repairing the Earth after all the conflicts. Plus they will be making sure that they are worshiping Christ in the correct manner that He prescribes to. Besides there will not be any alcoholic beavereges or drugs to make them roudy. They will not be tired from their labors. They will not get sick nor hunger, that is as long as they honor Christ correctly. And they most certainly will not muder. However they will at some point rebel against Jesus and follow Satan even after all the blessings.:(
     
  16. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    IN YOUR OWN WORDS The 1000 year reign has to happen where Christ is ... which is in Heaven.

    SO YOU CAN ANSWER these simple questions

    1- WHEN DID CHRIST GO TO HEAVEN??

    2- HOW CAN YOU tell biblically that the 1000 year reign is from Heaven as you claim and does the 1000 year reign REQUIRE CHRIST TO BE IN HEAVEN in order to start?? simple yes/no

    quote Justme- It has to happen where Christ is which is in Heaven.

    3- Had the 1000 year reign started WHEN CHRIST was teaching on Earth during the first advent BEFORE his crucifixion??

    These are simple questions.
     
  17. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    Thanks for your post, Palatka44. God has really given humans a very huge responsibility in that the scripture tells us that humans will judge Angels. I wonder why it was not the other way round.
    Anyway, it seems Christ still allows some degree of free will when Satan is released from the Pit since He does not intervene when the flesh ones follow Satan. He allows them to make their choice in view of the impending judgement which is fair.

    On judgement, I have some questions. Who are those that make up the dead in the sea, Death and Hell Heaven as in this verse

    Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works

    My question is , why is the dead grouped into 3 locations?
    sea
    Death
    Hell

    What is the significance of each location of the dead?

    2- These people do not live during the previous 1000 years but remain dead, yes?
     
  18. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

    +88
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    The second question is unclear to me. Previous 1000 years? Do you mean the previous 6000?

    As far as the 1st goes I can only speculate at this point and would welcome correction if it is found that I am wrong according to God's Holy Word.
    This question of the sea giving up the dead I've always found this puzzeling. If the sea gives up Dead then why are they seperate from Death? I just don't know.

    It is to my opinion that those that died after the resurrection of Christ are just that, dead. They awaite the time to be called forth for judgement these have yet to be put in Hell. They are "asleep" but not as the Bible says that departed saints are "asleep" in Christ. The Bible simply classifies them as Death or Dead. I would equate this with just the occupant of the Grave.

    Hell and it's occupants are those that did not (or were not worthy to) follow Christ out as He went there to deliver the Old Testament Saints at the time of His crucifixion, burial and resurrection. They remain there until they are called out for judgement along with Death and the sea-dead.

    It is my assumption that the sea-dead are all those that perished in the seas sense men had began to sail them.

    All of these will be called forth after the thousand year reign. These as best that I understand it are the lost dead sense, Cain? However I may stand corrected.
     
  19. Atkin

    Atkin Member

    428
    +1
    Christian
    The second part is quite important, regarding the 1000 years. I am referring to the Millenium because Revelation 20:13 as I quoted TAKES PLACE after the 1000 year reign by Christ. If you follow the sequence of events in Revelation 20:4 to Revelation 20:10, you realise this.

    Hence we see that all those in the sea, death and Hell were not alive in the previous 1000 year Millenial reign which ended. Hence my question that were all the dead in the sea, death and Hell not alive during the previous 1000 year Millenial reign that just ended in Revelation 20:7?
     
  20. Palatka44

    Palatka44 Unabashedly Baptist

    +88
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Thanks Atkin I really must contionue this tomorrow.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...