A willingness to save as many as will believe

[fhansen]

You might hold it as a theological doctrine or, perhaps, even a dogma, but not all Christians are in agreement on this point.

What is your basis for your belief?

History, as in the writings of the ECFs and teachings of the early church, Scripture, logic.

 

[fhansen]

Are you suggesting that salvation is temporary or iffy?

We must remain in Him. We must pick up our cross and follow daily. We must do His will the best we can with the grace we're given, "investing" our "talents". We must be holy; we must put to death the deeds of the flesh as we walk by the Spirit. We must love.

 

[fhansen]

Belief is not a choice a person does not choose their beliefs. When a person examines the evidence and is convinced the evidence is true, they will believe it. If they find the evidence to be not true they will not believe.

All people have the ability to believe in things, people, statements, evidence, etc..

So a person may read or be told that to receive God's free gift of Eternla lIfe is by belief in Jesus. They either will or will not believe this based on how they view the evidence presented by The Bible.

It's easy to refrain from belief in God. Many don't want to believe. Otherwise we'd have an excuse but Paul says, in Rom 1, that no one has excuse.

 

[bbbbbbb]

History, as in the writings of the ECFs and teachings of the early church, Scripture, logic.

Thank you. As we both know, the ECFs wrote an enormous number of works, some of which are quite spurious and quite unreliable. It requires a great amount of discernment to decide which writings are acceptable and which are not.

Scripture (aka the Bible) is of no real support to you on this issue.

Logic (aka theological reasoning) is also exceedingly unreliable. History is replete with entirely reasonable and systematic logical systems which were used for the vilest ends.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's easy to refrain from belief in God. Many don't want to believe. Otherwise we'd have an excuse but Paul says, in Rom 1, that no one has excuse.

What do you say concerning those who would probably believe if they knew anything about Christianity, but are quite incapable of making any sort of conscious decision, lacking any information?

 

[d taylor]

It's easy to refrain from belief in God. Many don't want to believe. Otherwise we'd have an excuse but Paul says, in Rom 1, that no one has excuse.

If a person perceives the evidence presented in The Bible of God and Jesus being the way to receive Eternal Life, as being true. How can they not want to believe this, i say they can not. So if a person does not believe, that is because they do not believe the evidence presented as being true.

If they did see this evidence as true, then they would believe.

Can you believe something is true and yet decide to not believe it.

 

[fhansen]

If a person perceives the evidence presented in The Bible of God and Jesus being the way to receive Eternal Life, as being true. How can they not want to believe this, i say they can not. So if a person does not believe, that is because they do not believe the evidence presented as being true.

If they did see this evidence as true, then they would believe.

Can you believe something is true and yet decide to not believe it.

The things of the world can become more important to you than God. The person may even know better, but they allow their faith to become of no avail, like the demons who believe, and tremble.

 

[fhansen]

What do you say concerning those who would probably believe if they knew anything about Christianity, but are quite incapable of making any sort of conscious decision, lacking any information?

Knowledge makes us culpable for sin. I believe that God will judge based on what we do with whatever knowledge and grace we’ve been given, with more demanded of those given more, Luke 12:48.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I have never seen a person convert from election to free will or free will to election. But I do remember when I was first introduced to election that some of the arguments were persuasive and I entertained it for a while. Now I am firmly convinced that "election" is always either 1) according to foreknowledge, or 2) a statement of the surety of the future glorification of those who put their trust in Christ. Concerning faith being a gift only to the elect, the Bible is clear that faith is a human capability that is easily within everyone's reach. And certainly it is true that God is longsuffering with those who reject Jesus' salvation because He doesn't want anyone to perish. This will likely not gain any converts, but it may help those who are toying with election.

 

[fhansen]

Thank you. As we both know, the ECFs wrote an enormous number of works, some of which are quite spurious and quite unreliable. It requires a great amount of discernment to decide which writings are acceptable and which are not.

Actually, relatively few of those accepted as ECFs are spurious and unreliable despite their millions of words written. Some may hold incorrect or even heretical views here and there while still offering exceptionably valuable insights in the main. Some simply fill in the blanks regarding historical facts, what the church believed and practiced, while others offer incredibly profound spiritual understanding. Most are unanimous in their portrayal of the basics of the faith. When read as a whole, as Scripture, itself, must be read, they give a quite clear picture of what Christianity means. They represent our common legacy-and should not be easily dismissed but read- objectively-and only beneficial understanding will come from that.

Scripture (aka the Bible) is of no real support to you on this issue.

Sure it is. There would be no reason for it to be written-no reason for God to reveal Himself to begin with-if He wasn't seeking to draw man to Himself. The choice is blatantly asked to be made, from Genesis through Revelation, to love and obey Him, to choose good over evil, life over death.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." Rev 3:20

Logic (aka theological reasoning) is also exceedingly unreliable. History is replete with entirely reasonable and systematic logical systems which were used for the vilest ends.

God created man with reason, rational beings like Himself, while nonetheless infinitely inferior to Him. He gave us reason for a reason; we wouldn't even be capable of knowing Him without it. We couldn't read the bible, we couldn't discern right from wrong, we couldn't ponder the mysteries of the faith. We're all theologians and philosophers-some are just more systematic in their approach.

 

[Rescued One]

Your siblings have made their choices, but not for lack of any information. The vast majority of humanity, not having access to any information regarding Christianity, have made their choices by default.

God can save anyone He wants to save. He saved the apostle Paul. My divorced parents not only didn't tell us about Christ, but my father was anti-Christian, My divorced mother kept us away from people by moving away every year; we had no friends. Mom divorced twice.; her third husband was a child molestor who died from alcoholism. After that guy she just slept with men, Two of us became Mormons. We did not have Christian friends. We could not watch Christian preachers on TV. There was no internet. Don't limit God from giving faith. Eternal life is a gift, after all.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If a person perceives the evidence presented in The Bible of God and Jesus being the way to receive Eternal Life, as being true. How can they not want to believe this, i say they can not. So if a person does not believe, that is because they do not believe the evidence presented as being true.

If they did see this evidence as true, then they would believe.

Can you believe something is true and yet decide to not believe it.

Actually, there is one elephant in the room that nobody seems willing to acknowledge.

What of those individuals, constituting the vast majority of humanity both alive this moment and deceased, who never have the slightest opportunity to receive anything whatsoever concerning Christianity and its gospel?

 

[bbbbbbb]

God can save anyone He wants to save. He saved the apostle Paul. My divorced parents not only didn't tell us about Christ, but my father was anti-Christian, My divorced mother kept us away from people by moving away every year; we had no friends. Mom divorced twice.; her third husband was a child molestor who died from alcoholism. After that guy she just slept with men, Two of us became Mormons. We did not have Christian friends. We could not watch Christian preachers on TV. There was no internet. Don't limit God from giving faith. Eternal life is a gift, after all.

At some point I think you probably had access in one form or another to the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are many Christians who believe faith is a mystical substance that God confers upon unwitting people through the rite of Christian baptism. Did you receive your faith in that manner?

 

[d taylor]

Actually, there is one elephant in the room that nobody seems willing to acknowledge.

What of those individuals, constituting the vast majority of humanity both alive this moment and deceased, who never have the slightest opportunity to receive anything whatsoever concerning Christianity and its gospel?

-
​

The Bible does not address this so i do not.

 

[bbbbbbb]

-
​

The Bible does not address this so i do not.

Actually, the Bible does address it and quite directly at that. In Romans 1 Paul sets out the case that all of humanity is condemned because they have rejected God's general revelation through creation. Therefore, all are lost.

Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."

Christianity is a highly exclusive religion, being limited only to those who have saving faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[d taylor]

Actually, the Bible does address it and quite directly at that. In Romans 1 Paul sets out the case that all of humanity is condemned because they have rejected God's general revelation through creation. Therefore, all are lost.

Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me."

Christianity is a highly exclusive religion, being limited only to those who have saving faith in Jesus Christ.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.


So this is addressing men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Romans also states because, although they knew God

Romans is addressing men who knew God but suppressed the truth.

So how is this addressing a person who has never known about Jesus and that God's free gift of Eternal Life is by belief in the person Jesus.

 

[bbbbbbb]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.


So this is addressing men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Romans also states because, although they knew God

Romans is addressing men who knew God but suppressed the truth.

So how is this addressing a person who has never known about Jesus and that God's free gift of Eternal Life is by belief in the person Jesus.

That is, assuredly, one valid way of seeing this passage. Most, however, take it otherwise, meaning that God, having revealed Himself through creation, was known by humanity in general, but humanity, as in the days of Noah, chose to reject that knowledge of God and, as a result, suffered the wrath of God in the Flood. What I find interesting, among many things, in that account, is that God only saved eight people out of the untold millions alive at that time. Given that assessment of humanity by God, it may not be overly pessimistic to find that God will only save a teensy minority of people at the end of this age.

However, back to your point. You have not addressed John 14:6. Do you think it possible to be saved without coming through Jesus Christ by faith in Him?

 

[d taylor]

That is, assuredly, one valid way of seeing this passage. Most, however, take it otherwise, meaning that God, having revealed Himself through creation, was known by humanity in general, but humanity, as in the days of Noah, chose to reject that knowledge of God and, as a result, suffered the wrath of God in the Flood. What I find interesting, among many things, in that account, is that God only saved eight people out of the untold millions alive at that time. Given that assessment of humanity by God, it may not be overly pessimistic to find that God will only save a teensy minority of people at the end of this age.

However, back to your point. You have not addressed John 14:6. Do you think it possible to be saved without coming through Jesus Christ by faith in Him?

The only way to receive the Life of God is by belief/faith in Jesus, no belief in Jesus no Eternal Life for a person.

How does accountability factor into a person who has never heard about Jesus. Would there be something God has for these people, like God does for children, youth who have not reached the age of accountability.
The Rapture and the Age of Accountability – Grace Evangelical Society


Are you confident to say that no believers died in the flood, that the only people who died in the flood were unbelievers. Because there are examples in The Bible of God taking the physical lives of disobedient believers.

Not sure your take on the flood, but there was more to the flood than just sinful man. At the time of the flood was also an attempt by satan to keep The promised Messiah from coming into the world. By corrupting the seed of women, by which God promised to bring the Messiah to earth. The birthing of the nephilim was this attempt by satan.

 

[Rescued One]

Actually, there is one elephant in the room that nobody seems willing to acknowledge.

What of those individuals, constituting the vast majority of humanity both alive this moment and deceased, who never have the slightest opportunity to receive anything whatsoever concerning Christianity and its gospel?

Did God goof?

Acts 17:26
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

 

[Rescued One]

At some point I think you probably had access in one form or another to the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are many Christians who believe faith is a mystical substance that God confers upon unwitting people through the rite of Christian baptism. Did you receive your faith in that manner?

I don't believe we are saved by baptism. I believe the Father brought me to Christ.

The Father brought me out of Mormonism.

John 6:37
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.