A willingness to save as many as will believe

[FutureAndAHope]

This post is a swipe at the idea that God preselected a group of people for salvation before creation, and also at that time choose others for damnation, what is known as Calvinism. It is a fatalistic idea that man does not choose to follow God of free will, but rather God elects some to salvation, and elects others to damnation, and the people have no choice in the matter.

Country to this idea, the Bible is clear God gave Himself as a ransom for all men.

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

The above verse shows us that a) God’s desire is to save as many as receive Him, note b) He gave himself as a ransom for all. This shows that the “all men” being talked about is a reference to their salvation. Not some general form of “other salvation”.

The following scriptures show us that “all men” includes both “saved” and unsaved, and for “us” and the “whole world”.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

​

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

Not only this when Jesus speaks of His willingness to save, he states that it was “man not him”, that was unwilling.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!​

A Calvinist will say that God chooses some for damnation and others for salvation. Meaning God was unwilling to save the damned that He desired their destruction. That He only had a willingness to save the elect.

But Luke 12:38 above clearly shows that God “desired to save the children of Israel”, but they were in many cases “unwilling”. The following scripture also shows us that God has a willingness to save those who are straying, that contrary to Calvinism, God does not delight in the death of the wicked, that that is not his will.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​

In light of this, we need to be careful in interpreting scripture in a fatalistic way. For Jesus clearly said “I wanted to gather your children together”, that is God’s will. He wanted salvation for people. But the people “were not willing”.

The same applies today, God wants salvation for all. But often people are not willing to follow Him.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Its not that people are not willing to follow God. That was never a condition God gave to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

A person remains a unbeliever, because they have never believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This post is a swipe at the idea that God preselected a group of people for salvation before creation, and also at that time choose others for damnation, what is known as Calvinism. It is a fatalistic idea that man does not choose to follow God of free will, but rather God elects some to salvation, and elects others to damnation, and the people have no choice in the matter.

Country to this idea, the Bible is clear God gave Himself as a ransom for all men.

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

The above verse shows us that a) God’s desire is to save as many as receive Him, note b) He gave himself as a ransom for all. This shows that the “all men” being talked about is a reference to their salvation. Not some general form of “other salvation”.

The following scriptures show us that “all men” includes both “saved” and unsaved, and for “us” and the “whole world”.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

​

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

Not only this when Jesus speaks of His willingness to save, he states that it was “man not him”, that was unwilling.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!​

A Calvinist will say that God chooses some for damnation and others for salvation. Meaning God was unwilling to save the damned that He desired their destruction. That He only had a willingness to save the elect.

But Luke 12:38 above clearly shows that God “desired to save the children of Israel”, but they were in many cases “unwilling”. The following scripture also shows us that God has a willingness to save those who are straying, that contrary to Calvinism, God does not delight in the death of the wicked, that that is not his will.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​

In light of this, we need to be careful in interpreting scripture in a fatalistic way. For Jesus clearly said “I wanted to gather your children together”, that is God’s will. He wanted salvation for people. But the people “were not willing”.

The same applies today, God wants salvation for all. But often people are not willing to follow Him.

The actual fact is that God predestines people to be saved or remain reprobate depending on their free will choices. It is not that God predestines people's choices. That could happen if God was doing the predestining within the dimensional boundaries of our finite universe. But God exists outside of our 4 dimensional space time reality. This means that God can see the whole panorama of past, present and future choices, and is quite capable of planning a person's future based on his free will choices. This is achieved within God's infinite dimensional reality. He knows beforehand who will embrace Christ and who will reject Him, so, He is able to write the names of those who embrace Christ in the book of life.

This is what enabled God to harden the heart of Pharaoh through his own free will choices. In a sense, Pharaoh hardened his own heart through the choices he made, and God did nothing to alter that. He knew Pharaoh's future, that he will eventually end up drowned in the Red Sea along with his army. Pharaoh could have chosen differently and his future would have been different. There was nothing to stop him choosing one way or the other. But God already knew which way he would choose, so his future was predetermined.

 

[Rescued One]

Sinners must choose? Sinners don't care about God's desires. All sinners choose damnation.


John 3:13
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God's plans are better than man's.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sinners must choose? Sinners don't care about God's desires. All sinners choose damnation.


John 3:13
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God's plans are better than man's.

There are multitudes of sinners who will never ever even hear the name of Jesus Christ in their lifetimes on earth and who don't have the slightest clue about making some sort of decision to choose damnation. Thus, it is absurd to assert that all sinners choose damnation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are multitudes of sinners who will never ever even hear the name of Jesus Christ in their lifetimes on earth and who don't have the slightest clue about making some sort of decision to choose damnation. Thus, it is absurd to assert that all sinners choose damnation.

Sinners are condemned already. It is through God's grace that He decides to choose some for salvation through Christ.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sinners are condemned already. It is through God's grace that He decides to choose some for salvation through Christ.

That is assuredly true. However, Rescued One asserted that sinners are lost because they choose damnation. That is quite false.

 

[Rescued One]

There are multitudes of sinners who will never ever even hear the name of Jesus Christ in their lifetimes on earth and who don't have the slightest clue about making some sort of decision to choose damnation. Thus, it is absurd to assert that all sinners choose damnation.

Do you believe those sinners desire truth? I tried to reach my parents, and five siblings with the truth. Some passed away without believing after being told or reading Bible verses. My parents didn't like Christ or believe He was God. My mother said, "I don't sin." My siblings either don't read the Bible or have read parts of it. It means nothing to them. Sinners don't believe. Hearing or reading doesn't make them believe. Not choosing life is choosing to ignore life.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is assuredly true. However, Rescued One asserted that sinners are lost because they choose damnation. That is quite false.

Accepted. No sane person, sinner or nor, would choose to spend eternity in hell. The problem arises when the Gospel is presented in a way that says that a person needs to choose between heaven and hell. Having it all based on personal choice is Pelagianism, which places the full responsibility on the sinner to determine whether he is going to embrace Christ or not, with God not doing anything until the person makes the choice. This is also extreme Arminianism. Of course, extreme Calvinism goes the other way where sinners have no choice, or the choice is made for them by God's predermination. Both extremes are wrong.

The default position is that sinners are already condemned, therefore if they do nothing, they will remain on the road to hell. Therefore the challenge to sinners, when they hear the Gospel, will they believe it and embrace Christ as Saviour? So, it's not a matter of choice between heaven and hell. It is a matter of receiving the good news of the Gospel and believing it. On the basis of that belief, the sinner receives Christ by faith and puts his trust in His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.

It is not a matter of "I choose to become a Christian", but is more a matter of "I believe that God sent His Son so that because I believe and trust in Him, I will not perish but will have eternal life."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Accepted. No sane person, sinner or nor, would choose to spend eternity in hell. The problem arises when the Gospel is presented in a way that says that a person needs to choose between heaven and hell. Having it all based on personal choice is Pelagianism, which places the full responsibility on the sinner to determine whether he is going to embrace Christ or not, with God not doing anything until the person makes the choice. This is also extreme Arminianism. Of course, extreme Calvinism goes the other way where sinners have no choice, or the choice is made for them by God's predermination. Both extremes are wrong.

The default position is that sinners are already condemned, therefore if they do nothing, they will remain on the road to hell. Therefore the challenge to sinners, when they hear the Gospel, will they believe it and embrace Christ as Saviour? So, it's not a matter of choice between heaven and hell. It is a matter of receiving the good news of the Gospel and believing it. On the basis of that belief, the sinner receives Christ by faith and puts his trust in His finished work on the Cross of Calvary.

It is not a matter of "I choose to become a Christian", but is more a matter of "I believe that God sent His Son so that because I believe and trust in Him, I will not perish but will have eternal life."

Nicely stated. Thank you.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Sinners must choose? Sinners don't care about God's desires. All sinners choose damnation.


John 3:13
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God's plans are better than man's.

They were born according to the will of God which is faith and not works. He that believes does the will of God.

 

[Rescued One]

They were born according to the will of God which is faith and not works. He that believes does the will of God.

He that does God's will has the Spirit dwelling in him.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 7:5
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

 

[fhansen]

-
​

Its not that people are not willing to follow God. That was never a condition God gave to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

A person remains a unbeliever, because they have never believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life and become a born again child of God.

Belief is both a gift-and a choice. Adam chose to believe in himself. We can carry on that family tradition-or not. We can open the door when He comes knocking with His grace. Or we can still refuse you open it. We cannot open it apart from grace, but we can stubbornly refuse anyway.

 

[Rescued One]

Belief is both a gift-and a choice. Adam chose to believe in himself. We can carry on that family tradition-or not. We can open the door when He comes knocking with His grace. Or we can still refuse you open it. We cannot open it apart from grace, but we can stubbornly refuse anyway.

That's an interpretation but not a fact.

 

[fhansen]

That's an interpretation but not a fact.

It's a Christian truth-that man's will is never completely uninvolved in his turning away from God, or turning back to Him when He calls.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's a Christian truth-that man's will is never completely uninvolved in his turning away from God, or turning back to Him when He calls.

You might hold it as a theological doctrine or, perhaps, even a dogma, but not all Christians are in agreement on this point.

What is your basis for your belief?

 

[d taylor]

Belief is both a gift-and a choice. Adam chose to believe in himself. We can carry on that family tradition-or not. We can open the door when He comes knocking with His grace. Or we can still refuse you open it. We cannot open it apart from grace, but we can stubbornly refuse anyway.

Belief is not a choice a person does not choose their beliefs. When a person examines the evidence and is convinced the evidence is true, they will believe it. If they find the evidence to be not true they will not believe.

All people have the ability to believe in things, people, statements, evidence, etc..

So a person may read or be told that to receive God's free gift of Eternla lIfe is by belief in Jesus. They either will or will not believe this based on how they view the evidence presented by The Bible.

 

[Rescued One]

There are multitudes of sinners who will never ever even hear the name of Jesus Christ in their lifetimes on earth and who don't have the slightest clue about making some sort of decision to choose damnation. Thus, it is absurd to assert that all sinners choose damnation.

Not choosing God results in damnation. Sinners won't choose God unless God changes their hearts. My siblings don't want to follow Christ. I was 2nd of 6 children.

 

[Rescued One]

It's a Christian truth-that man's will is never completely uninvolved in his turning away from God, or turning back to Him when He calls.

Are you suggesting that salvation is temporary or iffy?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not choosing God results in damnation. Sinners won't choose God unless God changes their hearts. My siblings don't want to follow Christ. I was 2nd of 6 children.

Your siblings have made their choices, but not for lack of any information. The vast majority of humanity, not having access to any information regarding Christianity, have made their choices by default.