A willingness to save as many as will believe

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,529
6,408
Midwest
✟80,125.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I have also heard a lot of similar stories. Neither you nor I can verify them, can we? What we can verify, however, is the level of knowledge that people do have. I can assure you that the vast majority of Chinese people know about the great American god, Santa Claus.

Romans 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
Does God direct the message bearers so that the message goes where it is needed? When I was four a young woman taught me to pray in her native tongue which I did not understand. I spent my childhood secretly praying that prayer. None of my close relatives prayed or told me to pray. My parents were divorced and neither of them told me to pray. I don't remember being told not to pray, but I knew to not pray in front of family. I feel very blessed. None of my mother's other children has become a Christian or has any interest in becoming one. I tried and tried to interest my mother in Christ and the Bible. She lived to age 93. She never cared. In fact she was somewhat anti-Christian.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,310
13,522
72
✟370,037.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Sodom was one city in 100,000, possibly millions. God's wrath was not on the whole world. It was a center for sin that drew sinners. Do you not believe that the gospel is good news to all? As the Church Father testified, it is truly good and merciful counsel that God gives:

And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.”

The God you have in mind is a wicked tyrant, nothing less. The real God has a desire to save all.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
The gospel is, indeed, good news to all who will believe. For those who will not believe, it is terrible news because it tells of God's wrath which is store for them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rescued One
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,847
328
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It has nothing to do with God selecting vessels for wrath. Did you not read God's heart in the matter?

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

No one is elected to destruction.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

As for the verse you quoted, it is those who delight in sin that end up blind, not a damnable elect.

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rom 1:21-22 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,
God created the vessels wrath to glorify His Justice nu their eternal damnation
 
Upvote 0

One God and Father of All

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2018
737
200
59
Wilmington, DE
✟18,183.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God created the vessels wrath to glorify His Justice nu their eternal damnation
it’s not to glorify His justice but to make His long suffering known to those who are not believing and His mercy to those who are.
in other words, God does not create people to satisfy His wrath and justice. He is long suffering and merciful.
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,847
328
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
it’s not to glorify His justice but to make His long suffering known to those who are not believing and His mercy to those who are.
in other words, God does not create people to satisfy His wrath and justice. He is long suffering and merciful.
Yes God created some for eternal damnation
 
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,362
2,912
Australia
Visit site
✟736,252.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes God created some for eternal damnation
That is a pretty big statement, blighting the nature of God. God did not create people for damnation, He knew that some would be damned, because of not choosing the good. But they are not made wicked by God's fault.

Look at what the Early Church taught about the Scripture:

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

Then look at the way they understood judgment and damnation, it is nothing like what you are believing.


Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Then look over the scriptures in the first post, if you look at them with an open mind, you will see God is not responsible for man's sins.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Your doctrine says God is unwilling to save some. But see Luke 13:34 God is willing to save, longs to save, but many are unwilling.
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,847
328
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That is a pretty big statement, blighting the nature of God. God did not create people for damnation, He knew that some would be damned, because of not choosing the good. But they are not made wicked by God's fault.

Look at what the Early Church taught about the Scripture:

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

Then look at the way they understood judgment and damnation, it is nothing like what you are believing.


Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Then look over the scriptures in the first post, if you look at them with an open mind, you will see God is not responsible for man's sins.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Your doctrine says God is unwilling to save some. But see Luke 13:34 God is willing to save, longs to save, but many are unwilling.
God created some to be fiited for destruction, they're called vessels of wrath Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

I believe Proverbs speaks of these people as the wicked God hath made for Himself for the day of wrath Prov 16:4


4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,310
13,522
72
✟370,037.00
Faith
Non-Denom
That is a pretty big statement, blighting the nature of God. God did not create people for damnation, He knew that some would be damned, because of not choosing the good. But they are not made wicked by God's fault.

Look at what the Early Church taught about the Scripture:

Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.

...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be...

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.

...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’...

Then look at the way they understood judgment and damnation, it is nothing like what you are believing.


Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God.

Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.


Justin Martyr (110-165) brings up the topic of Predestination (Fatalism) and says it is not what the Church believed in his day

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Then look over the scriptures in the first post, if you look at them with an open mind, you will see God is not responsible for man's sins.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Your doctrine says God is unwilling to save some. But see Luke 13:34 God is willing to save, longs to save, but many are unwilling.
I see that you two agree. You believe, if I am not mistaken, that God is able to save everyone, but is unwilling to save everyone because not everyone will be saved. If I am mistaken, then you believe that God is unable to save everyone. Based on earlier posts I think you believe that God is able to save everyone, but is incapacitated from doing so because the vast majority of humanity will not believe. Therefore, man's will entirely trumps God's will and God is utterly ineffective in implementing His will.
 
Upvote 0

One God and Father of All

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2018
737
200
59
Wilmington, DE
✟18,183.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
God created some to be fiited for destruction, they're called vessels of wrath Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

I believe Proverbs speaks of these people as the wicked God hath made for Himself for the day of wrath Prov 16:4


4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
“Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction”, “the wicked for the day of evil”, “the day of wrath”
Paul is speaking of Israel or the Jews. If you read the entire chapter you will see that. The day of wrath and day of evil refers to the day when God will judge his people Israel.
Paul pretty much sums up what he was talking about thus:

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

When God gave Israel His law, they pursued it by the righteousness which comes by the law. However, they were unable to attain it because they sought it by the works of the law rather than by faith.
They stumbled at the stumbling stone God had laid.

If anyone turns to Him in faith, not seeking righteousness through works of the law, He will have mercy on them.
 
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,362
2,912
Australia
Visit site
✟736,252.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God created some to be fiited for destruction, they're called vessels of wrath Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

I believe Proverbs speaks of these people as the wicked God hath made for Himself for the day of wrath Prov 16:4


4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

But did not God, "endure with much longsuffering" the vessel of wrath. Longsuffering in a biblical sense is always waiting, usually waiting for change.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

We see that vessels of wrath, "knew God", but did not take the action of believing him, but rather "did not glorify God", they then became blind.

Rom 1:21-22 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,362
2,912
Australia
Visit site
✟736,252.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see that you two agree. You believe, if I am not mistaken, that God is able to save everyone, but is unwilling to save everyone because not everyone will be saved. If I am mistaken, then you believe that God is unable to save everyone. Based on earlier posts I think you believe that God is able to save everyone, but is incapacitated from doing so because the vast majority of humanity will not believe. Therefore, man's will entirely trumps God's will and God is utterly ineffective in implementing His will.
God's will to me, was to create creatures capable of free will worship of God. This entered a variable of the "unknown", this variable was still God's will.

We see in the following scripture, that man did not turn out how God had wished. Seeing what man had become, God wished or desired that He had not created man. But it was too late, He had. This verse only makes sense if man has genuine free will.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

The verse above also shows that God does not enforce His will. As the Early Church attested:

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 Chap. XXXVII.

...because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,310
13,522
72
✟370,037.00
Faith
Non-Denom
God's will to me, was to create creatures capable of free will worship of God. This entered a variable of the "unknown", this variable was still God's will.

We see in the following scripture, that man did not turn out how God had wished. Seeing what man had become, God wished or desired that He had not created man. But it was too late, He had. This verse only makes sense if man has genuine free will.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

The verse above also shows that God does not enforce His will. As the Early Church attested:

Irenaeus (120-202 AD) in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 Chap. XXXVII.

...because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all.
You failed to respond to my post which pointed out that the two of you are in agreement. Is agreement not a good thing?

You both agree that God is unwilling to save everybody, do you not?
 
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,362
2,912
Australia
Visit site
✟736,252.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You failed to respond to my post which pointed out that the two of you are in agreement. Is agreement not a good thing?

You both agree that God is unwilling to save everybody, do you not?
God has a willingness to save all. He attempts to save all.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But not all will be saved. So in that sense, He is unwilling to save all.

1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

How are the unsaved defined? I suggest by their actions, "fornicators", "idolaters". Our actions determine whether we are saved or not, and whether we receive enlightenment.

Justin Martyr - First Apology

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

...For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate....hey who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,310
13,522
72
✟370,037.00
Faith
Non-Denom
God has a willingness to save all. He attempts to save all.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But not all will be saved. So in that sense, He is unwilling to save all.

1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

How are the unsaved defined? I suggest by their actions, "fornicators", "idolaters". Our actions determine whether we are saved or not, and whether we receive enlightenment.

Justin Martyr - First Apology

Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.

...For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate....hey who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
So, I stand corrected. I take it now that you believe that God is incapable of saving all.
 
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,362
2,912
Australia
Visit site
✟736,252.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, I stand corrected. I take it now that you believe that God is incapable of saving all.
God is capable of doing whatever He wishes. The fact that He wants free will worship, naturally leads to the fact that some will not respond. God put in place a sore punishment for that, partly to act as a deterrent to sin, and partly to show HIs anger against it.

But where does wrath come from, it comes against those who "suppress the truth", God does not want to display wrath for no reason, the reason is suppression of the truth by man.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,310
13,522
72
✟370,037.00
Faith
Non-Denom
God is capable of doing whatever He wishes. The fact that He wants free will worship, naturally leads to the fact that some will not respond. God put in place a sore punishment for that, partly to act as a deterrent to sin, and partly to show HIs anger against it.

But where does wrath come from, it comes against those who "suppress the truth", God does not want to display wrath for no reason, the reason is suppression of the truth by man.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Here are your options:

1. Man's free will trumps God's will every time and God is thwarted from saving most folks. Thus, God is unwilling to overrule human will and is, accordingly, actually unwilling to save everyone.
2. Man's free will trumps God's will every time and God is thwarted from saving most folks. Thus, God is incapable of exercising His will to save everyone.
3. God wills that everyone will be saved and, therefore, saves everyone, no questions asked.
4. God treat all of humanity fairly and equally and, therefore, saves nobody.

Which of these four options corresponds closest to your particular understanding?
 
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,362
2,912
Australia
Visit site
✟736,252.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here are your options:

1. Man's free will trumps God's will every time and God is thwarted from saving most folks. Thus, God is unwilling to overrule human will and is, accordingly, actually unwilling to save everyone.
2. Man's free will trumps God's will every time and God is thwarted from saving most folks. Thus, God is incapable of exercising His will to save everyone.
3. God wills that everyone will be saved and, therefore, saves everyone, no questions asked.
4. God treat all of humanity fairly and equally and, therefore, saves nobody.

Which of these four options corresponds closest to your particular understanding?
Number 1 is closest to the truth.

Let's look at your views:

God chooses who to save and who to damn, not based upon any work of theirs, just because He wills it.

Is that correct?
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,310
13,522
72
✟370,037.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Number 1 is closest to the truth.

Let's look at your views:

God chooses who to save and who to damn, not based upon any work of theirs, just because He wills it.

Is that correct?
Thank you. Thus, it appears that both you and Brightfame52 are in agreement that God is unwilling to save everyone, even though Brightfame52 would probably phrase it differently.

I have tried not to show any bias toward one position or the other. I personally have many friends who fall along all segments of this spectrum. I respect my friends and their positions and find that they can be given support both from the Bible as well as from theological reasoning. Unfortunately, many of my friends fail to understand opposing views and usually dismiss them out of hand.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,847
328
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
“Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction”, “the wicked for the day of evil”, “the day of wrath”
Paul is speaking of Israel or the Jews. If you read the entire chapter you will see that. The day of wrath and day of evil refers to the day when God will judge his people Israel.
Paul pretty much sums up what he was talking about thus:

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

When God gave Israel His law, they pursued it by the righteousness which comes by the law. However, they were unable to attain it because they sought it by the works of the law rather than by faith.
They stumbled at the stumbling stone God had laid.

If anyone turns to Him in faith, not seeking righteousness through works of the law, He will have mercy on them.
God created some for destruction and the day of wrath and never for salvation
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,847
328
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

But did not God, "endure with much longsuffering" the vessel of wrath. Longsuffering in a biblical sense is always waiting, usually waiting for change.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

We see that vessels of wrath, "knew God", but did not take the action of believing him, but rather "did not glorify God", they then became blind.

Rom 1:21-22 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,
God was willing and did make some as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction
 
Upvote 0