A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Ken-1122]

Yes, you are resorting to wordplay, because you knew perfectly well that I was talking about the doctor examining the baby's genitals and placing the baby into the "boy" box or the "girl" box based on that examination.

My disagreement was not about what you said, it was about what the link said. The link said that the doctor determines the baby’s sex. “Determine” was the wrong word to use, especially when it spoke of the doctor making a decision on if the baby is called a boy or a girl.

You said the doctor makes a determination on the baby's sex. I have stated numerous times now that this can't be reliably done unless the doctor checks the baby's chromosomes.

I’ve never refuted that. So what are you complaining about?

In today's society, that would not tell me much, because both men and women play football while in college.
Back in the 1940s, it would tell me a lot, because there probably weren't too many women's college football teams back then.
Which just proves the point I made in post 675 - ideas about gender can change.

It didn’t change, it disappeared; it no longer exist. If you disagree, how about if you answer my question by providing those examples I asked for in post #673

 

[Kylie]

My disagreement was not about what you said, it was about what the link said. The link said that the doctor determines the baby’s sex. “Determine” was the wrong word to use, especially when it spoke of the doctor making a decision on if the baby is called a boy or a girl.

So you are quibbling over words. You knew perfectly well what was meant.

I’ve never refuted that. So what are you complaining about?

If a person has a penis and XX chromosomes, what is their sex? What would the doctor write on the birth certificate when the baby is born?

It didn’t change, it disappeared; it no longer exist. If you disagree, how about if you answer my question by providing those examples I asked for in post #673

Back in the 1940s, gender stereotypes for women meant that they wouldn't be allowed to play college football. In 2019, those gender stereotypes have changed, and now I'm sure there are quite a few women's college football teams.

Please tell me what exactly you think has disappeared, and why you think a change in the way we view what different genders can do is not an adequate description of what is happening.

As for your list of behaviours that are biased towards one gender or the other, most CEOs and politicians are men, and most teachers and nurses are women. Of course, it used to be the case when ALL CEOs were men and ALL teachers and nurses were women. Perhaps another case of the standards changing?

Oh, and wearing dresses. When was the last time you saw a man walking down the street wearing something like this?

 

[Ken-1122]

So you are quibbling over words. You knew perfectly well what was meant.

I don't think that was what he meant. I believe this was a deliberate attempt to relay false information; sort of a way to vilify the process used in determining a baby's sex after birth. Kinda the way progressives use the term phobia/fear to vilify people who disapprove or disagree with certain behaviors and beliefs.

If a person has a penis and XX chromosomes, what is their sex? What would the doctor write on the birth certificate when the baby is born?

Intersex or hermaphrodite

Back in the 1940s, gender stereotypes for women meant that they wouldn't be allowed to play college football. In 2019, those gender stereotypes have changed, and now I'm sure there are quite a few women's college football teams.

Changed? So what do the gender stereotypes say now?

Please tell me what exactly you think has disappeared, and why you think a change in the way we view what different genders can do is not an adequate description of what is happening.

If the original rule was "men are restricted to A,B,&C, and women are restricted to 1,2,&3, a change would be men are now allowed 1, along with A,B,&C (still restricted from 2 & 3) and women are now allowed A along with 1,2,&3 but still restricted from B&C.
I say those restrictions are now gone, because men and women are both allowed 1,2,3, A,B,&C.

As for your list of behaviours that are biased towards one gender or the other, most CEOs and politicians are men, and most teachers and nurses are women. Of course, it used to be the case when ALL CEOs were men and ALL teachers and nurses were women. Perhaps another case of the standards changing?

Yeah and most NBA players are tall skinny black guys, but does that mean the NBA is restricted to only tall skinny black guys? No. Just because the majority of CEO's are men does not mean society restricts women from being CEO's.

Oh, and wearing dresses. When was the last time you saw a man walking down the street wearing something like this?

Haven't you ever heard of Crossdressers and Drag Queens?

 

[Kylie]

I don't think that was what he meant. I believe this was a deliberate attempt to relay false information; sort of a way to vilify the process used in determining a baby's sex after birth. Kinda the way progressives use the term phobia/fear to vilify people who disapprove or disagree with certain behaviors and beliefs.

Whatever you have to believe in order to justify your quibbling.

Intersex or hermaphrodite

And how would the doctor know that? All he's done is look at the baby's genitals and seen a penis. What would indicate to him that the baby is intersex?

Changed? So what do the gender stereotypes say now?

That women can play football, but they shouldn't play against men's teams.

Honestly, if you can't understand that ideas about what a person is capable of doing because of their gender and sex have changed, you probably shouldn't be in this discussion.

If the original rule was "men are restricted to A,B,&C, and women are restricted to 1,2,&3, a change would be men are now allowed 1, along with A,B,&C (still restricted from 2 & 3) and women are now allowed A along with 1,2,&3 but still restricted from B&C.
I say those restrictions are now gone, because men and women are both allowed 1,2,3, A,B,&C.

Generally speaking, they are, but that doesn't mean that it is the norm, and it doesn't mean that people don't see it as odd when a woman does A, or when a man does 1.

Yeah and most NBA players are tall skinny black guys, but does that mean the NBA is restricted to only tall skinny black guys? No. Just because the majority of CEO's are men does not mean society restricts women from being CEO's.

Tall skinny guys have a physical advantage over short players when it comes to basketball.

Are you suggesting that the presence of a penis gives some advantage when it comes to being a CEO? Please, explain why this is so.

Haven't you ever heard of Crossdressers and Drag Queens?

And they are a very small minority of the population, and still viewed as the exception rather than the norm.

So, a woman wears that, it's perfectly normal, nothing out of the ordinary.

A man wears that, and it's unusual and not something you see every day.

Do you even give the slightest bit of thought to your arguments before you post them?

 

[Ken-1122]

And how would the doctor know that? All he's done is look at the baby's genitals and seen a penis. What would indicate to him that the baby is intersex?

Are you a doctor? I’m not. I don’t know the details of a doctors procedures during child birth, but intersex is extremely rare. Could a doctors determination be wrong? I'm sure it's happened plenty of times, when this happens I'm sure corrections are made. I’m just saying the doctor determines a child’s sex, he does not decide it.

women can play football, but they shouldn't play against men's teams.

Honestly, if you can't understand that ideas about what a person is capable of doing because of their gender and sex have changed, you probably shouldn't be in this discussion.

Ahh so society says women can play football but not against men? Then why is it when Becca Longo became the first female to receive a scholarship to play on a college football team as a kicker, it was celebrated as ground breaking and the media made a big deal about it in a positive way? Remember; the link you provided said:
Each culture has standards about the way that people should behave based on their gender....... It’s about how you're expected to act because of your sex
If that were true, Becca would have been vilified by society for playing football against men.
Care to try again? Again; list some standards of behavior or activities society applies to women that they don't apply to men and visa versa.

Generally speaking, they are, but that doesn't mean that it is the norm, and it doesn't mean that people don't see it as odd when a woman does A, or when a man does 1.

Whether some people see it as odd or outside the norm is not the same as society saying you should not do this or that.

Are you suggesting that the presence of a penis gives some advantage when it comes to being a CEO? Please, explain why this is so.

No. I’m saying our culture does not say women should not be CEO’s

And they are a very small minority of the population, and still viewed as the exception rather than the norm.
So, a woman wears that, it's perfectly normal, nothing out of the ordinary.
A man wears that, and it's unusual and not something you see every day.

Again, just because it is unusual, and not something you see everyday, does not mean it goes against the rules of society.

Do you even give the slightest bit of thought to your arguments before you post them?

Funny; I was just thinking the same thing concerning your replies!

 

[Kylie]

Are you a doctor? I’m not. I don’t know the details of a doctors procedures during child birth, but intersex is extremely rare. Could a doctors determination be wrong? I'm sure it's happened plenty of times, when this happens I'm sure corrections are made. I’m just saying the doctor determines a child’s sex, he does not decide it.

No, I'm not a doctor, and by your own admission, neither are you.

So why do you insist on discounting what actual doctors say about trans people?

And the doctor's determination could be wrong, but that will never be found out unless the person gets their chromosomes checked. And that is very rarely done - have you had yours checked? I know I haven't had mine checked.

And you are once again insisting on your quibbles about "decide" and "determine" when you know perfectly well what is meant.

Let's see if you can make a point without resorting to that.

Ahh so society says women can play football but not against men? Then why is it when Becca Longo became the first female to receive a scholarship to play on a college football team as a kicker, it was celebrated as ground breaking and the media made a big deal about it in a positive way? Remember; the link you provided said:
Each culture has standards about the way that people should behave based on their gender....... It’s about how you're expected to act because of your sex
If that were true, Becca would have been vilified by society for playing football against men.
Care to try again? Again; list some standards of behavior or activities society applies to women that they don't apply to men and visa versa.

I love how you post an example of standards changing even further than I thought they had in an effort to bolster your argument that standards don't even exist anymore.

Whether some people see it as odd or outside the norm is not the same as society saying you should not do this or that.

Are you expecting me to give an example that EVERYONE in a society agrees with? That's never going to happen. Of course, you have to resort to an all-or-nothing idea because if you don't, your argument falls apart.

No. I’m saying our culture does not say women should not be CEO’s

Then why are there so few of them? Just 24 female CEOs lead the companies on the 2018 Fortune 500—fewer than last year

Again, just because it is unusual, and not something you see everyday, does not mean it goes against the rules of society.

And yet, crossdressers are attacked for being crossdressers.

EXCLUSIVE: Crossdressing Queens man brutally attacked, suspect repeatedly smashed his head into a curb

Even if a person in drag wants to read books to people in a library, they get attacked, and so does the library!

“Sick, evil”: Melbourne library responds to online abuse over kids drag ‘storytime’ event

Do you think any of this would have happened if these men weren't wearing women's clothes? Tell me about the time a man was bashed because he was wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Tell me about when a guy wearing regular men's clothes was the cause of a library receiving harassment because he wanted to read to kids.

Funny; I was just thinking the same thing concerning your replies!

So you have to resort to the idea that gender stereotypes no longer exist when I have demonstrated they do, and the idea that men are free to wear whatever they like, despite the fact that the vast majority of men never wear dresses and those that do are often attacked for it, and yet I'M the one who doesn't think about her arguments? Please.

 

[Ken-1122]

So why do you insist on discounting what actual doctors say about trans people?

What do actual doctors say about trans people that I’ve discounted?

And the doctor's determination could be wrong, but that will never be found out unless the person gets their chromosomes checked. And that is very rarely done - have you had yours checked? I know I haven't had mine checked.

I haven’t had my chromosomes checked, but I have had my testosterone levels checked. Does that count?

And you are once again insisting on your quibbles about "decide" and "determine" when you know perfectly well what is meant.

So what do you think the link meant when it said the doctor determines the baby’s sex?

I love how you post an example of standards changing even further than I thought they had in an effort to bolster your argument that standards don't even exist anymore.

If gender roles exist, provide some examples then!

Then why are there so few of them? Just 24 female CEOs lead the companies on the 2018 Fortune 500—fewer than last year

Are you saying women in positions of power goes against American culture?

And yet, crossdressers are attacked for being crossdressers.

Regenald Denny was attacked for being white, Michael Donald was attacked for being black, people are attacked by hate filled people for all sorts of reasons. Does this mean these type of people are against American culture?

Do you think any of this would have happened if these men weren't wearing women's clothes?

Oh so because these people were attacked, its because cross dressing goes against the rules of American society? But wait; Rue Paul and Big Frieda got their own TV shows because they are cross dressers. Wouldn’t this suggest cross dressing is in line with the rules of American society? Which is it?

 

[Kylie]

What do actual doctors say about trans people that I’ve discounted?

They say we know it isn't their genitals, they say it isn't their chromosomes. Anatomy Does Not Determine Gender, Experts Say

I haven’t had my chromosomes checked, but I have had my testosterone levels checked. Does that count?

Do you know the difference between hormones and chromosomes?

So what do you think the link meant when it said the doctor determines the baby’s sex?

That the doctor looks at the baby's genitals and says, "This baby has a penis, therefore I shall write MALE on the birth certificate," or "This baby has a vagina, therefore I shall write FEMALE on the birth certificate."

If gender roles exist, provide some examples then!

Not only have I already done so, you have provided examples of how they have changed.

Are you saying women in positions of power goes against American culture?

it would seem so.

Regenald Denny was attacked for being white, Michael Donald was attacked for being black, people are attacked by hate filled people for all sorts of reasons. Does this mean these type of people are against American culture?

It would suggest to me that those people are angry at the things they see represented by the people they attacked, just as people who attack crossdressers and trans people are against things that go against their ideas of gender and gender expression.

Oh so because these people were attacked, its because cross dressing goes against the rules of American society? But wait; Rue Paul and Big Frieda got their own TV shows because they are cross dressers. Wouldn’t this suggest cross dressing is in line with the rules of American society? Which is it?

And there are no people outspoken about how bad Rue Paul and Big Frieda are? Saying that they represent the decline of moral values or something like that?

 

[Ken-1122]

,

 

[Ken-1122]

They say we know it isn't their genitals, they say it isn't their chromosomes. Anatomy Does Not Determine Gender, Experts Say

I can't get the link. Can you post something from an actual medical doctor from the link rather than a (self proclaimed) expert?

Do you know the difference between hormones and chromosomes?

Do you know of any biological females with a natural testosterone level of 600 and an estrogen level of 30?

That the doctor looks at the baby's genitals and says, "This baby has a penis, therefore I shall write MALE on the birth certificate," or "This baby has a vagina, therefore I shall write FEMALE on the birth certificate."

Yes; that I agree. But the article doesn't say the doctor determines the sex at birth it says the doctor assigns sex at birth. that is where we disagree.

it would seem so.

But there are so many fortune 500 companies that have workshops that encourage and promote women to pursue management in the work place. Doesn't this conflict with your view that women in power contradicts American culture?

It would suggest to me that those people are angry at the things they see represented by the people they attacked, just as people who attack crossdressers and trans people are against things that go against their ideas of gender and gender expression.

So.... if being attacked is an indicator of being against US culture, are you saying that being black and being white goes against American culture since white people and black people are attacked as well?

And there are no people outspoken about how bad Rue Paul and Big Frieda are? Saying that they represent the decline of moral values or something like that?

Yes there are plenty of people who say they represent the decline of moral values or something like that. There are also plenty of people who say they represent what is best about America; or something like that. So which is it? Which group represents American culture?

 

[Kylie]

I can't get the link. Can you post something from an actual medical doctor from the link rather than a (self proclaimed) expert?

From the article...

“The idea that a person’s sex is determined by their anatomy at birth is not true, and we’ve known that it’s not true for decades,” said Dr. Joshua D. Safer, an endocrinologist and executive director of the Center for Transgender Medicine and Surgery at Mount Sinai Health System in New York. He is also president of the United States Professional Association of Transgender Health.

But exactly what does determine gender identity — a person’s powerful, core knowledge of who they are — is not so clear.

“We know that there is a significant, durable biological underpinning to gender identity,” Dr. Safer said. “What we don’t know are all of the biological factors at play that explain gender identity. As far as we in the mainstream biological-medical community understand it in 2018, it is hard-wired, it is biological, it is not entirely hormonal, and we do not have identified genes, so we cannot specifically say it is genetic.”​

Do you know of any biological females with a natural testosterone level of 600 and an estrogen level of 30?

I note that you were incapable of answering the question and instead tried to deflect.

Yes; that I agree. But the article doesn't say the doctor determines the sex at birth it says the doctor assigns sex at birth. that is where we disagree.

But since we both knew what was actually happening, all you were doing is quibbling over the words.

But there are so many fortune 500 companies that have workshops that encourage and promote women to pursue management in the work place. Doesn't this conflict with your view that women in power contradicts American culture?

The fact that so few of them have women CEOs would suggest that such programs are mostly for show and when it comes to actually placing women in the top seat those companies suddenly have very different ideas about women in management.

So.... if being attacked is an indicator of being against US culture, are you saying that being black and being white goes against American culture since white people and black people are attacked as well?

Wow, you must be so desperate to ignore my points if you refuse to read my posts. When did I say that any of those people were attacked because they represented American culture?

Yes there are plenty of people who say they represent the decline of moral values or something like that. There are also plenty of people who say they represent what is best about America; or something like that. So which is it? Which group represents American culture?

Why do you think only one does? They BOTH represent American culture, and the fact that more and more people are saying they are good and fewer and fewer are saying that they represent the decline of morality is showing how the standards are changing - you remember, right? Those standards that you claim don't exist? The ones that I've just shown are changing? Those ones?

 

[Ken-1122]

From the article...

“The idea that a person’s sex is determined by their anatomy at birth is not true, and we’ve known that it’s not true for decades,” said Dr. Joshua D. Safer, an endocrinologist and executive director of the Center for Transgender Medicine and Surgery at Mount Sinai Health System in New York. He is also president of the United States Professional Association of Transgender Health.​

Okay.....

But exactly what does determine gender identity — a person’s powerful, core knowledge of who they are — is not so clear.

Wait! I thought we were talking about sex, why is he bringing gender identity into the conversation only to say he doesn't know what determines it? We're talkin' what determines sex not gender identity.
The rest of his replies continue to be about gender identity without even a mention about sex.​

I note that you were incapable of answering the question and instead tried to deflect.

I was making the point that chromosomes is not the only way to determine male vs female.

But since we both knew what was actually happening, all you were doing is quibbling over the words.

My dispute is not about what actually happens, it's what the article SAYS happens.

The fact that so few of them have women CEOs would suggest that such programs are mostly for show and when it comes to actually placing women in the top seat those companies suddenly have very different ideas about women in management.

What do you base this on? Consider the possibility that there are very few women with the desire and qualifications to be CEO of the top Corporations.

Wow, you must be so desperate to ignore my points if you refuse to read my posts. When did I say that any of those people were attacked because they represented American culture?

If you weren't suggesting those attackers represented American culture, why did you bring them up then? Are you moving the goal posts from culture to criminals?

Why do you think only one does? They BOTH represent American culture, and the fact that more and more people are saying they are good and fewer and fewer are saying that they represent the decline of morality is showing how the standards are changing - you remember, right? Those standards that you claim don't exist? The ones that I've just shown are changing? Those ones?

Perhaps this is where we will just have to agree to disagree; I don't see this change as a change in culture I only see it as a change in attitudes towards people who are different; no matter what that difference is. I don't think there will ever be a time when men wearing women's clothes will ever become a part of American culture, I believe the vast majority of men will never have the desire to start wearing dresses that the few that do will always be something unusual and not something you see everyday, even though those who do will be treated differently than yesterday.

 

[Kylie]

Wait! I thought we were talking about sex, why is he bringing gender identity into the conversation only to say he doesn't know what determines it? We're talkin' what determines sex not gender identity.
The rest of his replies continue to be about gender identity without even a mention about sex.

I'm sorry, I thought you understood that we were talking about what actual doctors say about trans people. You asked me, "What do actual doctors say about trans people that I’ve discounted?" You did NOT ask what doctors said the cause of a person's sex was.

Stop shifting the goalposts.

I was making the point that chromosomes is not the only way to determine male vs female.

If a person has XX chromosomes and has a penis, are they male or female?

My dispute is not about what actually happens, it's what the article SAYS happens.

Because quibbling over wordplay is all you've got.

What do you base this on? Consider the possibility that there are very few women with the desire and qualifications to be CEO of the top Corporations.

So women are just inherently uninterested in being CEO? Perhaps you could count that as one of the gender roles you claim don't exist?

If you weren't suggesting those attackers represented American culture, why did you bring them up then? Are you moving the goal posts from culture to criminals?

How about you read what I read again?

Here's what I said:

"It would suggest to me that those people are angry at the things they see represented by the people they attacked, just as people who attack crossdressers and trans people are against things that go against their ideas of gender and gender expression."

So when the white guy is attacked for being white, it's because the people who attacked him are angry at white guys, not American culture. I never said anything about American culture.

Did you have fun with your little strawman?

Perhaps this is where we will just have to agree to disagree; I don't see this change as a change in culture I only see it as a change in attitudes towards people who are different; no matter what that difference is. I don't think there will ever be a time when men wearing women's clothes will ever become a part of American culture, I believe the vast majority of men will never have the desire to start wearing dresses that the few that do will always be something unusual and not something you see everyday, even though those who do will be treated differently than yesterday.

So now you admit that ideas can change, and that there are certain things related to gender that are not held by people of different gender.

You've come a long way from when you said that there were no ideas to change, and that there were no differences in how men and women were viewed.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'm sorry, I thought you understood that we were talking about what actual doctors say about trans people. You asked me, "What do actual doctors say about trans people that I’ve discounted?" You did NOT ask what doctors said the cause of a person's sex was.

Okay lemme see if I’ve got this straight.
Post #685 I make the point that Doctors determine sex at birth, they do not assign sex at birth. However I do recognize the possibility the doctor could be wrong in their determination, when and if this happens, I am sure corrections are eventually made.
#686 you counter that I am discounting what doctors actually say about trans people.
#687 I ask what do doctors say, that I’ve discounted?
#688 you provide a link that speaks of what a doctor says about trans people, but the link does not address anything I discounted in post #685. Again; what do doctors say that I discounted in post #685?

If a person has XX chromosomes and has a penis, are they male or female?

What are their Testosterone and Estrogen levels? And what does this have to do with trans people? Are you suggesting those extremely rare cases of when a person's chromosomes and sex organs don't match up that these people often end up being trans?

Because quibbling over wordplay is all you've got.

Again; I disagree with what the article says, I point out my disagreement and rather than pointing out where I am wrong, you call it “quibbling over word play”. Sounds like that’s all you’ve got.

So women are just inherently uninterested in being CEO? Perhaps you could count that as one of the gender roles you claim don't exist?

No, the fact that there are women who are CEO’s, is proof that there are some women who are interested and qualified in being CEO.

How about you read what I read again?
Here's what I said:
"It would suggest to me that those people are angry at the things they see represented by the people they attacked, just as people who attack crossdressers and trans people are against things that go against their ideas of gender and gender expression."

Really? So when Billy Bob goes out beating on a trans guy, he does it because that trans guy represents something that contradicts Billy Bob’s idea of gender and gender expression? Are you kidding me?s C’mon! I will betcha during the beating, the terms “gender” and “gender expression” are probably the furthest thing from Billy Bob’s mind at that point.

So when the white guy is attacked for being white, it's because the people who attacked him are angry at white guys, not American culture.

Yeah; and when Billy Bob attacks a trans guy for being trans, he attacks him because he is angry at trans guys, not American culture.

So now you admit that ideas can change, and that there are certain things related to gender that are not held by people of different gender.

You've come a long way from when you said that there were no ideas to change,

Which post number did i say there were no ideas to change? What was the context?

and that there were no differences in how men and women were viewed.

I didn’t say that; I said there are no societal rules that apply to women but not men and visa versa. You seem to think that because certain fields are dominated by women like nurses, teachers, etc that men doing these jobs goes against the rules of society, and jobs dominated by men like CEO or Construction; that they are dominated by men because women entering those fields goes against the rules of society. This is where we disagree.

 

[FireDragon76]

The reason I don't have a problem with trans people is very simple, and comes from an old moral principle that Christians should understand very well "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It involves empathy and putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. Empathy involves setting aside your own particular perspective on the world and being willing to engage with somebody else's.

 

[Kylie]

Okay lemme see if I’ve got this straight.
Post #685 I make the point that Doctors determine sex at birth, they do not assign sex at birth. However I do recognize the possibility the doctor could be wrong in their determination, when and if this happens, I am sure corrections are eventually made.
#686 you counter that I am discounting what doctors actually say about trans people.
#687 I ask what do doctors say, that I’ve discounted?
#688 you provide a link that speaks of what a doctor says about trans people, but the link does not address anything I discounted in post #685. Again; what do doctors say that I discounted in post #685?

You never specified that you wanted a response to a particular post, you said, "What do actual doctors say about trans people that I’ve discounted?" You never said, "What do actual doctors say about trans people that I’ve discounted regarding them examining the baby's genitals at birth to see if they will write a M or F on the birth certificate."

What are their Testosterone and Estrogen levels? And what does this have to do with trans people? Are you suggesting those extremely rare cases of when a person's chromosomes and sex organs don't match up that these people often end up being trans?

Who cares? Answer the question. If a person has XX chromosomes and has a penis, are they male or female? Knowing the levels of particular hormones is not required to answer this question.

Again; I disagree with what the article says, I point out my disagreement and rather than pointing out where I am wrong, you call it “quibbling over word play”. Sounds like that’s all you’ve got.

You're the one who has been complaining that a particular word was used when you think a different word was used. Regardless of the word used, the underlying meaning was clear, and yet you ignore that because you apparently think the word usage is far more important to the topic.

No, the fact that there are women who are CEO’s, is proof that there are some women who are interested and qualified in being CEO.

Wow, do you even think about the consequences of your logic?

There's about 5% female CEOs in Fortune 500 companies as of 2018. So for every 1 woman CEO, there's 19 men. So you think that men being 19 times more likely to want to be CEO is equal? Or do you have the flawed reasoning that as long as even a tiny minority of women want a thing, then you can say it's equal because both men and women want it?

And yet you've ignored the most reasonable explanation - that women find it much harder to achieve something because they are viewed as less suitable for leadership positions because they are women?

Really? So when Billy Bob goes out beating on a trans guy, he does it because that trans guy represents something that contradicts Billy Bob’s idea of gender and gender expression? Are you kidding me?s C’mon! I will betcha during the beating, the terms “gender” and “gender expression” are probably the furthest thing from Billy Bob’s mind at that point.

Well, Billy Bob would probably be more likely to use words like "freak" and such, but yeah. Why do you find it so hard to believe?

Yeah; and when Billy Bob attacks a trans guy for being trans, he attacks him because he is angry at trans guys, not American culture.

Yeah. I knew you could understand it! Or do you not think that nobody is ever angry at trans people for being trans?

Which post number did i say there were no ideas to change? What was the context?

In post 679, you asked, "If I told you my best friend played football in College, would you think it was equally likely that my friend identified a man or a woman? Does this mean society says women should not play football?"

I replied in post 680, saying, "In today's society, that would not tell me much, because both men and women play football while in college. Back in the 1940s, it would tell me a lot, because there probably weren't too many women's college football teams back then." I then pointed out that this is an example of how gender stereotypes have changed over the years.

In post 681, you replied by saying that the gender stereotypes didn't change, they disappeared and gender stereotypes no longer exist.

I didn’t say that; I said there are no societal rules that apply to women but not men and visa versa. You seem to think that because certain fields are dominated by women like nurses, teachers, etc that men doing these jobs goes against the rules of society, and jobs dominated by men like CEO or Construction; that they are dominated by men because women entering those fields goes against the rules of society. This is where we disagree.

So you think I need to provide an example of something that is only ever done by women and not men, or vice versa? lol, do you understand how the world works? Something can be viewed as stereotypically feminine even if men do it, or vice versa. That's where the problem lies - people doing things that are stereotypically viewed as suitable only for the opposite gender and then getting attacked for it. A man who cries at a romantic movie, for example, can be made fun of for it. I've read of a woman who was a mechanic, and her coworkers would often take the rags she used and not return them. So she sewed some pink lace frills onto all her rags. And then, not only did her rags stop getting stolen, if she happened to leave one of her rags somewhere other than her work bench, it would find its way back to her, because none of her big manly coworkers wanted to be seen with a pink lace work rag! It just wouldn't be manly enough! And let's not forget the huge number of products that have "hor him" and "for her" versions, even though they are the same exact product - and then the women's version has the price bumped up!

 

[stevevw]

Are you a doctor? I’m not. I don’t know the details of a doctors procedures during child birth, but intersex is extremely rare. Could a doctors determination be wrong? I'm sure it's happened plenty of times, when this happens I'm sure corrections are made. I’m just saying the doctor determines a child’s sex, he does not decide it.

From my understanding a doctor in a hospital is primarily dealing with physical medical conditions. They diagnose physical conditions and so will only be determining the sex of a baby based on physical/biological status. That will be determined by whether the baby has a penis or vagina as this is the way male and females are physically determined. Any variation is considered different and rare from the usual physical features such as intersex.

It is important for medical doctors to use the physical features of a human body to understand medical conditions. If this is undermined then this can lead to misdiagnosis. When it comes to self identified gender that becomes another area of understanding such as sociology or psychology for which a doctor can refer a person to get a better understanding of how a person thinks.

 

[Ken-1122]

You never specified that you wanted a response to a particular post,

Shouldn't it be obvious? When you responded to post #685 with an accusation that I am discounting what doctors say, shouldn't it be obvious my question was in reference to #685?

Who cares? Answer the question. If a person has XX chromosomes and has a penis, are they male or female? Knowing the levels of particular hormones is not required to answer this question.

How do you know the level of hormones is not required? Neither of us are medical professionals so all we are doing is speculating; how ever it would seem to me the natural testosterone to estrogen ratio is just as important as anything else when determining the sex. And why is this important? If the rare situation of intersex has nothing to do with transgenderism, why are we even discussing it?

You're the one who has been complaining that a particular word was used when you think a different word was used. Regardless of the word used, the underlying meaning was clear, and yet you ignore that because you apparently think the word usage is far more important to the topic.

As I said before, I believe the article was extremely bias and was attempting to imply false information via the terms they chose to use. That is why I remain skeptical of the article.

Wow, do you even think about the consequences of your logic?

There's about 5% female CEOs in Fortune 500 companies as of 2018. So for every 1 woman CEO, there's 19 men. So you think that men being 19 times more likely to want to be CEO is equal? Or do you have the flawed reasoning that as long as even a tiny minority of women want a thing, then you can say it's equal because both men and women want it?

I never said any thing was equal, I said current american society has no problem with women in positions of power

And yet you've ignored the most reasonable explanation - that women find it much harder to achieve something because they are viewed as less suitable for leadership positions because they are women?

To me the most reasonable explanation is that because in the past women were prevented from positions of power, though attitudes have hanged now, women have a lot of catching up to do because the guy with 20 years of leadership experience is going to be more qualified than the woman with only 10 years even if she only has 10 years due to past discrimination

Well, Billy Bob would probably be more likely to use words like "freak" and such, but yeah. Why do you find it so hard to believe?

Yeah. I knew you could understand it! Or do you not think that nobody is ever angry at trans people for being trans?

My position has been consistent; there are people who will hate you because you are black, white, brown, male, female, and yes.... even trans.

In post 679, you asked, "If I told you my best friend played football in College, would you think it was equally likely that my friend identified a man or a woman? Does this mean society says women should not play football?"

I replied in post 680, saying, "In today's society, that would not tell me much, because both men and women play football while in college. Back in the 1940s, it would tell me a lot, because there probably weren't too many women's college football teams back then." I then pointed out that this is an example of how gender stereotypes have changed over the years.

In post 681, you replied by saying that the gender stereotypes didn't change, they disappeared and gender stereotypes no longer exist.

Yes. If gender is defined as rules that apply to men that don't apply to women; and visa vera, I still say those rules have disappeared in modern culture.

So you think I need to provide an example of something that is only ever done by women and not men, or vice versa? lol, do you understand how the world works? Something can be viewed as stereotypically feminine even if men do it, or vice versa. That's where the problem lies - people doing things that are stereotypically viewed as suitable only for the opposite gender and then getting attacked for it.

I agree there are things men generally do that women do not, and visa versa, but I don’t see the exceptions of these rules as going against american culture, I see them as women and men being different and choosing to do different things because of those differences.

A man who cries at a romantic movie, for example, can be made fun of for it. I've read of a woman who was a mechanic, and her coworkers would often take the rags she used and not return them. So she sewed some pink lace frills onto all her rags. And then, not only did her rags stop getting stolen, if she happened to leave one of her rags somewhere other than her work bench, it would find its way back to her, because none of her big manly coworkers wanted to be seen with a pink lace work rag! It just wouldn't be manly enough!

I agree there are cultures, but I don't think there is anything that could be considered a single american culture. I believe there are countless cultures that vary depending on where you live, where you choose to hang out etc. A person may be a part of a culture in his Church (for example), and reflect the attitudes of that culture while in church than the same person may be a part of different cultures when he goes to work, night club, the gym and have slightly different attitudes depending on where he hangs out. So it seems to me, if gender is going to be based on culture, perhaps the cure to these problems with gender should start with finding a different culture to be a part of. Does this make sense? If not, tell me where I’m going wrong.

 

[Kylie]

Shouldn't it be obvious? When you responded to post #685 with an accusation that I am discounting what doctors say, shouldn't it be obvious my question was in reference to #685?

If you can't clearly communicate, that's your problem, not mine.

How do you know the level of hormones is not required? Neither of us are medical professionals so all we are doing is speculating; how ever it would seem to me the natural testosterone to estrogen ratio is just as important as anything else when determining the sex. And why is this important? If the rare situation of intersex has nothing to do with transgenderism, why are we even discussing it?

It would seem to you? Ah, but you're not a doctor, are you? So why should we pay any attention to your admittedly uneducated opinion on what is relevant?

And it is relevant because I am showing you that a person's biology - the shape of their genitals and their chromosomes - can give to completely contradictory results when it comes to trying to find out what a person's gender is.

As I said before, I believe the article was extremely bias and was attempting to imply false information via the terms they chose to use. That is why I remain skeptical of the article.

Okay. Whatever excuse you need in order to ignore the things you don't like.

I never said any thing was equal, I said current american society has no problem with women in positions of power

And yet you have been incapable of explaining why, if America in general is so comfortable with women in positions of power, there are so few women CEOs.

To me the most reasonable explanation is that because in the past women were prevented from positions of power, though attitudes have hanged now, women have a lot of catching up to do because the guy with 20 years of leadership experience is going to be more qualified than the woman with only 10 years even if she only has 10 years due to past discrimination

You know they change CEOs fairly often, right? And a person who is currently CEO at age 50 was born in the late 60s, and unless they became CEO in their 30s, they became CEO in the 21st century. Tell me, when do you think the attitudes started to change? Please support your answer with a source showing how the attitudes changed at the time you say they did.

My position has been consistent; there are people who will hate you because you are black, white, brown, male, female, and yes.... even trans.

The why were you saying that it was because the attackers were against American culture instead of saying the people who attacked white people were against white people, the people who attacked black people were against black people?

Yes. If gender is defined as rules that apply to men that don't apply to women; and visa vera, I still say those rules have disappeared in modern culture.

While it is true that more and more people are seeing those old rules as irrelevant, there are still plenty of people who still hold to them. That's why there are still people who attack gay people, despite gay people being more accepted today than they were in the 80s. That's why there being people who think a woman's place is in the kitchen, or just churning out the babies, despite us seeing more women become CEOs.

I agree there are things men generally do that women do not, and visa versa, but I don’t see the exceptions of these rules as going against american culture, I see them as women and men being different and choosing to do different things because of those differences.

You know I'm not American, right?

And the problem isn't what men and women choose to do. The problem is that there are still plenty of people out there who think men have to do this set of things but shouldn't do that other set of things, and then attacking any man who does something that they think of as "unmanly".

I agree there are cultures, but I don't think there is anything that could be considered a single american culture. I believe there are countless cultures that vary depending on where you live, where you choose to hang out etc. A person may be a part of a culture in his Church (for example), and reflect the attitudes of that culture while in church than the same person may be a part of different cultures when he goes to work, night club, the gym and have slightly different attitudes depending on where he hangs out. So it seems to me, if gender is going to be based on culture, perhaps the cure to these problems with gender should start with finding a different culture to be a part of. Does this make sense? If not, tell me where I’m going wrong.

I never said there was a single American culture. In fact, if you had actually read my posts, you'd see that I was saying the opposite. Have a read of my post 693 again. You'll see I clearly talk about how the people who attack trans folks are from a culture in which trans people are viewed as wrong or abominations. Same with gay people, crossdressers, etc.

And are you suggesting that we should change the cultural ideas about the roles men and women should fulfil, despite saying that such cultural ideas no longer existed?

 

[Ken-1122]

It would seem to you? Ah, but you're not a doctor, are you? So why should we pay any attention to your admittedly uneducated opinion on what is relevant?

The same reason we should pay any attention to your admittedly uneducated opinion on what is relevant (remember you are’t a doctor either) because we are having a conversation with each other; not a doctor.

And it is relevant because I am showing you that a person's biology - the shape of their genitals and their chromosomes - can give to completely contradictory results when it comes to trying to find out what a person's gender is.

No kidding! What gave you the impression I was unaware of this?

Okay. Whatever excuse you need in order to ignore the things you don't like.

If that were true, I would have ignored the article rather than read it then point out it’s flaws.

And yet you have been incapable of explaining why, if America in general is so comfortable with women in positions of power, there are so few women CEOs.

I did explain why. Remember that part about they having a little catching up to do?

You know they change CEOs fairly often, right? And a person who is currently CEO at age 50 was born in the late 60s, and unless they became CEO in their 30s, they became CEO in the 21st century. Tell me, when do you think the attitudes started to change? Please support your answer with a source showing how the attitudes changed at the time you say they did.

I said leadership experience, not CEO experience. And attitudes are in a constant state of change.

The why were you saying that it was because the attackers were against American culture instead of saying the people who attacked white people were against white people, the people who attacked black people were against black people?

You have obviously misunderstood what I said.

While it is true that more and more people are seeing those old rules as irrelevant, there are still plenty of people who still hold to them. That's why there are still people who attack gay people, despite gay people being more accepted today than they were in the 80s. That's why there being people who think a woman's place is in the kitchen, or just churning out the babies, despite us seeing more women become CEOs.

Notice I said modern culture what you are describing is not modern culture.

You know I'm not American, right?

And the problem isn't what men and women choose to do. The problem is that there are still plenty of people out there who think men have to do this set of things but shouldn't do that other set of things, and then attacking any man who does something that they think of as "unmanly".

What you are describing is extremely rare. That is the exception not the rule. And thanks for pointing out that you are not from America, I had assumed you were.

And are you suggesting that we should change the cultural ideas about the roles men and women should fulfil, despite saying that such cultural ideas no longer existed?

Cultural ideas about the roles men and women should fulfill? I’m saying anybody who has a problem with their culture’s ideas about the roles men and women should fulfill should find a different culture to be a part of, because in America, there are plenty of cultures where such roles do not even exist.