A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[FireDragon76]

It doesn't live in your genitals, it lives in your biology; regardless of what goes on in your head.

That's a philosophical and metaphysical assumption, it's not a given fact of reality. One would have to adopt a kind of biological reductionism to take that seriously, and I am not a biological reductionist in my metaphysics.

 

[Ken-1122]

That's a philosophical and metaphysical assumption, it's not a given fact of reality. One would have to adopt a kind of biological reductionism to take that seriously, and I am not a biological reductionist in my metaphysics.

No I'm talking natural science, not metaphysics or some type of philosophy. A simple biological examination will do. According to science, all humans are mammals. All mammals are either biological male or female regardless of what goes on inside of their heads.

 

[FireDragon76]

No I'm talking natural science, not metaphysics or some type of philosophy. A simple biological examination will do. According to science, all humans are mammals. All mammals are either biological male or female regardless of what goes on inside of their heads.

That's taking a particular interpretation of scientific data and absolutizing it in an illiberal manner, in my estimation. To use science to undermine the rights of transpersons to their self-identity is the sort of measures I would expect out of the religious, not somebody claiming to be an atheist.

 

[Ken-1122]

That's taking a particular interpretation of scientific data and absolutizing it in an illiberal manner, in my estimation. To use science to undermine the rights of transpersons to their self-identity is the sort of measures I would expect out of the religious, not somebody claiming to be an atheist.

To recognize the truth concerning our biological realities does not in any way undermine the rights of anyone to self identify as they choose.

 

[Kylie]

It doesn't live in your genitals, it lives in your biology; regardless of what goes on in your head.

Gender identity does not live in your head? Yes it does. It's your sense of your own gender, where else can it be other than your head? It's certainly not determined by your X/Y chromosomes!

 

[Ken-1122]

Gender identity does not live in your head? Yes it does. It's your sense of your own gender, where else can it be other than your head? It's certainly not determined by your X/Y chromosomes!

My mistake. Gender is your biology, but gender identity is about what is in your head.

 

[FireDragon76]

To recognize the truth concerning our biological realities does not in any way undermine the rights of anyone to self identify as they choose.

When it comes to matters of equal treatment under the law, appeals to "science" are nothing more than sophistry. Everybody has the right to bigoted attitudes, however foolish that may be, but nobody has the right to engage in arbitrary discrimination against an individual whose behavior harms no one.

 

[FireDragon76]

Gender identity does not live in your head? Yes it does. It's your sense of your own gender, where else can it be other than your head? It's certainly not determined by your X/Y chromosomes!

Indeed. People are entitled to have inner lives of their own own, and to be forced to limit that to any particular scientific interpretation.

Really, who are transpeople hurting exactly? Offending somebody's sensibilities of naturalness or cosmic order is not good enough to constitute a real harm in a liberal society that values personal freedoms.

At any rate, gender is not a purely biological phenomenon, it is socially constructed. Gender and biological sex are not the same thing.

 

[Ken-1122]

When it comes to matters of equal treatment under the law, appeals to "science" are nothing more than sophistry.

No; that which is based in science is not sophistry, it's reality.

 

[FireDragon76]

No; that which is based in science is not sophistry, it's reality.

You're talking about naive realism here, which is just that, naive. Nobody has direct access to reality as such, this is just obvious to anybody who has studied metaphysics and epistemology. Kant worked this out several centuries ago in fact, but it's been known by different philosophers in different times and places.

 

[Ken-1122]

Indeed. People are entitled to have inner lives of their own own, and to be forced to limit that to any particular scientific interpretation.

Really, who are transpeople hurting exactly?

I'm reminded of an old saying; "your right to swing your fists ends where my face begins". People can believe whatever they want; but when they start insisting others around them believe as they believe, that is where the harm begins

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How about if we just don’t address it? When referring to men vs women, when deciding which public restroom or shower facility to use, when unsure to call someone a ma'am or sir, instead of assuming gender, why not just assume sex? The difference? Sex refers to biology, (XX vs XY chromosomes, sex organs, etc) where as gender refers to perceived social roles based on sex.

When I speak to people, if I use the pronoun he or she, I’m referring to their sex not their gender. I’m making an assumption of their biology, not whatever confusion they might have going on inside of their heads. If a biological woman identifies as a man, she shouldn’t assume I am addressing her identification when I call her she, this woman should assume I am referring to her biology.

Does this make sense? Your thoughts?

Ken

Yes, it makes more sense than a lot of other ideas broadcast in the public arena.
The truth though will not be popular at all until Jesus Returns - the darkness will continue increasing along with sin and wickedness, as foretold long ago.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm reminded of an old saying; "your right to swing your fists ends where my face begins". People can believe whatever they want; but when they start insisting others around them believe as they believe, that is where the harm begins

You seriously think a choice of pronouns is equal to a broken nose?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Nobody has direct access to reality as such

Do you mean to include Yahuweh and Yahushua in with "Nobody"? as if God does not have direct access to reality? (the One True God Who is Sovereign Creator of all things and giver of all life ? )

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm reminded of an old saying; "your right to swing your fists ends where my face begins". People can believe whatever they want; but when they start insisting others around them believe as they believe, that is where the harm begins

This is actually written in Scripture in various ways...
The one that first came to mind was "where do wars <battles, fights> come from - you want something you don't have, and so you fight/even go to war/ to get it" (i.e. the sensually led flesh/ carnal persons and worldly governments/ officials )

 

[FireDragon76]

Do you mean to include Yahuweh and Yahushua in with "Nobody"? as if God does not have direct access to reality? (the One True God Who is Sovereign Creator of all things and giver of all life ? )

I do not believe in YHWH and I am not a Christian or monotheist. Isn't that obvious to anyone who bothers following what I have said here?

I believe the first cause of reality, for all we know, could well be impersonal or an intelligence completely unlike ours. At any rate, I believe the Bible tells us more about human psychology than it would about first causes. In this sense I am Jungian, I do not regard religion as literally true. I am a spiritual non-theist and non-believer who nontheless appreciates some elements associated with religion. Feelings of gratitude, prayer, those are all part of my life. But they are not directed towards an Abrahamic God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So "no" is your answer then ?

 

[Ken-1122]

You seriously think a choice of pronouns is equal to a broken nose?

That's not what I said. I'm saying you can believe whatever you want, but when your beliefs begin to affect me, that's where the harm begins.

 

[FireDragon76]

So "no" is your answer then ?

The God of the Bible as a literal, transcendent being is a fiction. As part of the human psyche, God is of course very real. I do believe human beings are spiritual beings and have some kind of existence after death, but I do not ascribe this all to some mesopotamian war god like YHWH.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's not what I said. I'm saying you can believe whatever you want, but when your beliefs begin to affect me, that's where the harm begins.

Being offended is not automatically the same sort of harm as being denied a job or being told you are mentally ill or a bad person because you perceive yourself to be a different gender than the one you were assigned at birth.