A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Ken-1122]

It's in post 705. Just ten posts ago. Not that far back.

Okay. So in the rare case of intersex that you provided in your example, I would say the baby would probably be misdiagnosed, however I am not a doctor so all I can do is guess. As far as corrections made, I can only guess some type of surgery would be done to correct their sex organs. Now what does this have to do with trans people?

Funny thing is that you don't need to understand it in order to respect the fact that other people feel it.

Perhaps you should look at it from my perspective. I see this as a mental disorder. Just as I wouldn’t comply with the delusions of a person suffering from schizophrenia, I will not comply with the delusions of a trans person. Now if you see this as a lack of respect of how they feel, well I guess this is something that we will just have to agree to disagree on.

You may want to take more care with the way you phrase it, because when you say things like, "What goes on in other countries is not my concern," it sure sounds like you have no concern.

In the context of this conversation, what goes on in other countries is of neither of our concerns right?

As an Australian, I have to answer: Yeah, it sure seems like they can't!

As an American, I say no. No matter who or what you are, everybody will experience some form of discrimination or ill treatment in America. An occasional mistreatment does not prevent us from living peacefully.

Yeah, check the first post. The OP talks about doing it.

I am the OP and I spoke of addressing a person’s biology rather than gender. So to answer your question, Yes. A trans person can live in peace if they are referred to by their biology rather than their gender. As far as speaking to their face; when speaking directly to a person, the only pronouns used are “you” and “your”, masculine or feminine pronouns are only used when speaking to another person about you.

 

[Strathos]

Funny thing is that you don't need to understand it in order to respect the fact that other people feel it.

Does this apply to atheists respecting the religious faith of theists?

 

[Ken-1122]

You were the one who brought up intersex in this discussion. If you agree that what happens to intersex people can't be applied to what happens to trans people, why did you bring up intersex people in a discussion about trans people?

Actually; you and I were already discussing doctors misdiagnose intersex babies when stevevw entered the conversation.

 

[Kylie]

Okay. So in the rare case of intersex that you provided in your example, I would say the baby would probably be misdiagnosed, however I am not a doctor so all I can do is guess. As far as corrections made, I can only guess some type of surgery would be done to correct their sex organs. Now what does this have to do with trans people?

As I've said many times, such a person may not even know they have XX chromosomes unless they have a chromosomal test done.

Secondly, I was using that point to illustrate that there's a lot more to a person's gender than their biology. And this is a case where their biology is saying two completely different things.

Perhaps you should look at it from my perspective. I see this as a mental disorder. Just as I wouldn’t comply with the delusions of a person suffering from schizophrenia, I will not comply with the delusions of a trans person. Now if you see this as a lack of respect of how they feel, well I guess this is something that we will just have to agree to disagree on.

The World Health Organisation says that being trans is not a mental disorder. https://www.webmd.com/sex/news/20190529/being-transgender-not-a-mental-disorder-who-says

In the context of this conversation, what goes on in other countries is of neither of our concerns right?

I am very concerned about what happens to people in other countries. I do not concern myself just with the things that affect me.

As an American, I say no. No matter who or what you are, everybody will experience some form of discrimination or ill treatment in America. An occasional mistreatment does not prevent us from living peacefully.

You seem very ignorant about how black people are treated in your country. But then, you also seem very ignorant about how trans people are treated in your country. In fact, it seems like you are ignorant about how everyone except yourself is treated in your country.

I am the OP and I spoke of addressing a person’s biology rather than gender. So to answer your question, Yes. A trans person can live in peace if they are referred to by their biology rather than their gender. As far as speaking to their face; when speaking directly to a person, the only pronouns used are “you” and “your”, masculine or feminine pronouns are only used when speaking to another person about you.

Are you really the OP? GASP! I had no idea!

And once again you seem incapable of showing concern for anyone but yourself.

 

[Kylie]

Does this apply to atheists respecting the religious faith of theists?

My husband is a Christian. I respect his right to have his belief, even though I don't share it. But I don't go and tell him how he should hold his beliefs. He can have whatever belief he wants, as long as it doesn't affect people against their will.

 

[Kylie]

Actually; you and I were already discussing doctors misdiagnose intersex babies when stevevw entered the conversation.

And that was in response to your claim that it is a person's biology that is more important than their gender identity. I was showing you that a person's biology is not a great way of deciding how to address them.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't think anyone really knows what causes it. But I know that I have an innate sense of being a woman. when I was little, I could recognise that I was fundamentally different to boys, and I don't mean in the obvious physical ways. It was deeper than that. I had a sense of my own femininity that the boys never had.

Ok...can you describe what that means? Is it an emotion? Is it liking "feminine" things?

There may be some people who don't understand this or even feel it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist for those who do. I mean, I'll never experience what it is like to have my prostate massaged, since I don't have one. But the fact that it doesn't apply to me doesn't mean it doesn't apply to anyone. And the fact I can never understand it doesn't mean it is irrelevant.

That's the problem though....you're an atheist, right? I'm guessing that when people tell you that they "feel God's love" or "feel God's presence" you probably have some skepticism regarding those claims, right?

Yet here you are trying to tell me you feel something that you can't really describe nor explain what makes it different from feeling like a man. I'd propose that anything you can feel I can feel as a man....so what exactly are we talking about?

 

[Ken-1122]

As I've said many times, such a person may not even know they have XX chromosomes unless they have a chromosomal test done.

Secondly, I was using that point to illustrate that there's a lot more to a person's gender than their biology. And this is a case where their biology is saying two completely different things.

In the extremely rare exceptions as in the case mentioned, I can agree. I just don’t see what this have to do with trans people

The World Health Organisation says that being trans is not a mental disorder. https://www.webmd.com/sex/news/20190529/being-transgender-not-a-mental-disorder-who-says

Yes; due to pressure from LGBQ groups, they changed it. But that still doesn’t change how I see it.

You seem very ignorant about how black people are treated in your country.

Really? So let me see if I’ve got this straight; here we have a white lady from Australia telling a black man from America that he is ignorant about how black people are treated in America, Wow! Consider the possibility that YOU are ignorant of how black people are treated in my country.

But then, you also seem very ignorant about how trans people are treated in your country.

Consider the possibility that YOU are ignorant about how trans people are treated in my country

In fact, it seems like you are ignorant about how everyone except yourself is treated in your country.

Consider the possibility that YOU are ignorant about everyone except yourself in your country.

 

[Strathos]

My husband is a Christian. I respect his right to have his belief, even though I don't share it. But I don't go and tell him how he should hold his beliefs. He can have whatever belief he wants, as long as it doesn't affect people against their will.

But you still opine that God doesn't exist, which is as offensive to a Christian as misgendering is to a trans person.

 

[Kylie]

Ok...can you describe what that means? Is it an emotion? Is it liking "feminine" things?

That's the problem though....you're an atheist, right? I'm guessing that when people tell you that they "feel God's love" or "feel God's presence" you probably have some skepticism regarding those claims, right?

Yet here you are trying to tell me you feel something that you can't really describe nor explain what makes it different from feeling like a man. I'd propose that anything you can feel I can feel as a man....so what exactly are we talking about?

It's just an innate sense of who you are. Not sure how to describe it. Don't think it's the same sort of thing as a religious belief - that has to be taught, yet there are lots of trans folks out there with a gender identity that doesn't match their bodies, and they were not (I assume) taught to be trans.

 

[Kylie]

In the extremely rare exceptions as in the case mentioned, I can agree. I just don’t see what this have to do with trans people.

I literally spelled it out to you. I was using that point to illustrate that there's a lot more to a person's gender than their biology. And this is a case where their biology is saying two completely different things.

Yes; due to pressure from LGBQ groups, they changed it. But that still doesn’t change how I see it.

Again, it's about you. Your opinion.

Really? So let me see if I’ve got this straight; here we have a white lady from Australia telling a black man from America that he is ignorant about how black people are treated in America, Wow! Consider the possibility that YOU are ignorant of how black people are treated in my country.

I had no idea you were black.

Tell me then, why is it that you think an unarmed black man is much more likely to be killed by the police than an armed white man who has committed murders?

Consider the possibility that YOU are ignorant about how trans people are treated in my country

You've never given me any shred of evidence to support your views, and yet I've given support for mine.

Consider the possibility that YOU are ignorant about everyone except yourself in your country.

Says the guy who's stated that he isn't concerned with others.

 

[Kylie]

But you still opine that God doesn't exist, which is as offensive to a Christian as misgendering is to a trans person.

Uh, no.

My husband is not offended by me being an atheist. I'm not aware of any Christian who finds the mere existence of atheists offensive, and those few that are offended would be rightfully seen as nuts by most people. He'd be offended if I walked into his church and started claiming that everyone there was a fool for believing in God. And rightfully so.

Likewise, a trans person is rightly offended when someone comes up and starts misgendering them.

 

[stevevw]

You were the one who brought up intersex in this discussion. If you agree that what happens to intersex people can't be applied to what happens to trans people, why did you bring up intersex people in a discussion about trans people?

Actually I was responding to yours and Ken 11-22's debate when you asked him "what would indicate to the doctor that the baby was intersex, since all they've done is have a look and seen a penis" in post #703. Sorry I may have missed the original point. But I assumed it was something to do with how trans people say that gender is assigned at birth by doctors based on the genitals and that this should not be the basis for gender as some people with male genitals may be identify as female and those with female genitals identify as male. My point was that a doctor is only concerned with the physical aspect of male and female such as with genitals and that is why they will say to a women congratulations Mrs Smith you have just given birth to a 7 lb baby boy.

But a transgender or person that identifies with the many other genders base this on a feeling within themselves which is separate from the physical. This is something a doctor is not as associated with as he is mainly concerned with the physical/medical diagnosis. It is important for them to see things this way as some conditions and complications may be specific to males or females. If a doctor suspects there is additional conditions associated with cognition then he will refer a person to a psychologists or psychiatrist.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's just an innate sense of who you are. Not sure how to describe it. Don't think it's the same sort of thing as a religious belief - that has to be taught, yet there are lots of trans folks out there with a gender identity that doesn't match their bodies, and they were not (I assume) taught to be trans.

Just because you accept a claim uncritically doesn't mean anyone else should.

Especially when you can't really describe it beyond "an innate sense".

 

[Strathos]

Uh, no.

My husband is not offended by me being an atheist. I'm not aware of any Christian who finds the mere existence of atheists offensive, and those few that are offended would be rightfully seen as nuts by most people. He'd be offended if I walked into his church and started claiming that everyone there was a fool for believing in God. And rightfully so.

Likewise, a trans person is rightly offended when someone comes up and starts misgendering them.

What I'm saying is that if you can claim that telling a trans person to their face that they are not the gender they identify with is wrong, then it is equally wrong to tell a Christian to their face that there is no God.

 

[Ken-1122]

I had no idea you were black.

Tell me then, why is it that you think an unarmed black man is much more likely to be killed by the police than an armed white man who has committed murders?

What on earth are you talking about? I never said I believed such foolishness, is this what they tell you about African Americans out there in Australia? If so, I would recommend you find a new source.

You've never given me any shred of evidence to support your views, and yet I've given support for mine.

You provided examples of Trans people being attacked and made the leap that all trans people suffer this way and they are unable to live in peace in the US. I can provide the same evidence and leap to suggest nobody is able to live in peace in the US. Again; I would recommend you find a new source concerning trans in the US as well as African Americans.

Says the guy who's stated that he isn't concerned with others.

I never said that. Dang! Now you just makin' stuff up!

 

[Kylie]

Actually I was responding to yours and Ken 11-22's debate when you asked him "what would indicate to the doctor that the baby was intersex, since all they've done is have a look and seen a penis" in post #703. Sorry I may have missed the original point. But I assumed it was something to do with how trans people say that gender is assigned at birth by doctors based on the genitals and that this should not be the basis for gender as some people with male genitals may be identify as female and those with female genitals identify as male. My point was that a doctor is only concerned with the physical aspect of male and female such as with genitals and that is why they will say to a women congratulations Mrs Smith you have just given birth to a 7 lb baby boy.

But a transgender or person that identifies with the many other genders base this on a feeling within themselves which is separate from the physical. This is something a doctor is not as associated with as he is mainly concerned with the physical/medical diagnosis. It is important for them to see things this way as some conditions and complications may be specific to males or females. If a doctor suspects there is additional conditions associated with cognition then he will refer a person to a psychologists or psychiatrist.

Ah.

That part of the discussion was me trying to show that gender is not tied to biology, since in the case of an XX person with a penis, there are two different conclusions we can reach based on the biology. If we look only at the genitals, we conclude male. If we check the chromosomes, we conclude female. If we are to conclude that a person's gender is based on their biology, we are forced into a position where we are contradicting ourselves when it comes to people like this.

 

[Kylie]

Just because you accept a claim uncritically doesn't mean anyone else should.

Especially when you can't really describe it beyond "an innate sense".

But if a person born with a penis says they are a woman, that their gender identity is a woman, are we to say, "Well, I'm not going to believe you until explain it to my satisfaction"?

 

[Kylie]

What I'm saying is that if you can claim that telling a trans person to their face that they are not the gender they identify with is wrong, then it is equally wrong to tell a Christian to their face that there is no God.

The difference is that the Christian claiming that there is a God is making a statement about something external to themselves - they believe in a God that is separate to themselves. A trans person telling you their gender is not making a statement about something external to themselves.

 

[Kylie]

What on earth are you talking about? I never said I believed such foolishness, is this what they tell you about African Americans out there in Australia? If so, I would recommend you find a new source.

Are you suggesting that black people are not mistreated by police at a far greater rate than white people in America?

You provided examples of Trans people being attacked and made the leap that all trans people suffer this way and they are unable to live in peace in the US. I can provide the same evidence and leap to suggest nobody is able to live in peace in the US. Again; I would recommend you find a new source concerning trans in the US as well as African Americans.

No, I was making the statement that trans people are MORE LIKELY to face discrimination than the average American.

I never said that. Dang! Now you just makin' stuff up!

"What goes on in other countries is not my concern."