• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Ken-1122, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +531
    Atheist
    Private
    Is your point that there are only 2 genders and all those people claiming a hundred different genders just wrong? While I don’t disagree with you, I realize there are a lot of people makin’ a fuss who claim there are countless genders, and as crazy as that sounds, they want everybody else to be crazy with them when dealing with each other.

    For these people, gender is a social construct that is not based on science, but what goes on in your head.

    https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/what-is-the-difference-between-sex-and-gender.html

    My point was directed at these people; rather than addressing the countless gender pronouns they’ve made up, we should address sex which is based on biology.
     
  2. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

    472
    +315
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    My point is that words have meaning... and "GENder" has a meaning. The fact that some wish to redefine it is the problem... because the redefinition gives them some sort of "validation" of their distorted thinking.

    I object to the redefinition of the word. I do not feel any obligation to confirm their self-delusion about their own gender, just so they can feel better about themselves.

    At the core, the problem is that there are plenty of people who don't--in their hearts/minds--have the same responses to life as most people of the same gender. They feel guilt and shame because they're not "normal" so they have decided that the best way to feel OK about themselves is to define a new and different "gender" that doesn't have the same characteristics as their biological gender's "typical" characteristics.

    I understand the issue. Personally. I have a daughter who has decided that such redefinition makes here feel better and more confident about herself.

    But that's the wrong solution... My daughter is definitely a different sort of bird... but she's no less a woman than any other woman in the world. She sees the worlds differently... she responds differently... and her mind works differently than most other women... but she's still a woman. That is not diminished or discounted even one iota. I have great admiration for her... exactly as she is and who she is! She's an amazing and unusual woman and I wouldn't change her for anything!

    But there's absolutely no need or advantage to inventing a false narrative and nonsensical definitions of words just in order for people to feel better about themselves. People who see and respond to the world differently than most people are a gift to the rest of us... we need people who don't see things in "normal" ways... they make us better... they often give us amazing artwork and other forms of creativity.

    They don't need us to affirm a different gender, they need us to affirm their worth and value to us precisely because they are different.

    The problem is that most people don't know how to deal with "different"... and they feel awkward around "different" and they fail to affirm "different's" value and worth... probably because they themselves are struggling with their own since of value and worth.
     
  3. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +531
    Atheist
    Private
    Do you really think these people are redefining gender to mean something other than biology, and are insisting everyone else address them as something other than what they are, even to the point of getting the legal system involved, because they aren't being appreciated for their differences? Are you kidding me??? I think you are fooling yourself!
     
  4. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

    472
    +315
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    That's exactly what I think is really happening.

    Shame is a very powerful motivator.
     
  5. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +531
    Atheist
    Private
    Have you ever had a conversation with any of them? If not, sounds like you should.
     
  6. Nithavela

    Nithavela confused

    +10,296
    Germany
    Other Religion
    Single
    I suggest we abolish any clothing beneath the waist.
     
  7. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +15,780
    United States
    Lutheran
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    I can't tell others who don't share my religious principles what to do, but I believe that the basic principle of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a good idea. And so that means, at the very least, treating other people with basic respect.

    If I am intentionally disrespecting another person, then I'm not loving them, and I am not doing unto them as I would want to be treated.

    To that end, it almost doesn't matter what one thinks about this pronoun issue--at the end of the day the basic and kind thing to do is to be kind, be respectful, and not be a jerk.

    At no point, anywhere in the Gospels or the New Testament, is there anything that would suggest it's okay to be a jerk toward people. Justifying being a jerk under the veneer of religious piety is not pious, it's just rank hypocrisy and religious abuse. As a Christian I should never support behavior that is demeaning and dehumanizing toward my neighbor, let alone engage in such behavior.

    Again, for those outside of my religious tradition--that isn't for me to say. I can only speak from within my own religious tradition on this matter.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  8. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

    472
    +315
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Does my own daughter count?
     
  9. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +531
    Atheist
    Private
    Yes she does count. I would say if your daughter identifies as a man because she doesn't feel loved or appreciated, I think she is an exception.
     
  10. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

    +2,971
    Christian
    Single
    US-Democrat
    What if someone tells you that every time you see them, you have to bow down and lick their feet, or else you're being a jerk?
     
  11. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

    472
    +315
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I'm her father. I've known she was an unusual bird since she was small. I've gone out of my way to affirm her in her uniqueness... she really is a gift to the world for her creativity and fascinating perspective on life and everything else. And I made sure she knew that I knew that and really believed that.

    It was not at home that she felt somehow different or misunderstood or unappreciated... but among her peers and in other social environments where realized that many gender-based "expectations" and stereotypes didn't fit her...

    Naturally as a teen trying to fit in and find her place in this world and in society, those expectations and stereotypes made it hard for her to really know who she was. Not until she was struggling with all that did she start "researching" and discover that other people feel the same way that she does... and she learned of their new "labels" that they could give themselves in order to feel better about who they are as individuals... a "reason" to explain why they're not like everyone else... a banner to stand under with others and demand recognition, acceptance, and respect.

    So... yes... I watched it happen in my own daughter. I can see it in the lives of others. They have grown up ashamed of their own inability to align with the stereotypical male and female characteristics, so rather than simply being "OK" with being outside the standard roles, they've invented new stereotypes and demanded that we all acknowledge their new made-up definitions of "gender" as a social construct... all in order to say to themselves and to the world, "I have value! I am different! Respect me as I am!" I don't have to be like the rest of you!"

    But the fact is that they always had (and still have) value. Their different-ness is a gift to the rest of us, not a curse on them. They ARE worthy of respect. And, no, they never did have to be like the rest of us.

    But... society doesn't like to give that message... so they've been "forced" into a false construct and narrative to demand what should have been theirs all along, but for the weakness and insecurity of everyone else in society... who have for their own parts been depending on their own conformity to the expectations and stereotypes for their own sense of worth.

    I provided it for my daughter... but she needed it from others as well, evidently, and she didn't get enough of it for her to be content and satisfied with who she is.

    She doesn't identify as male, though... just "non-binary."

    So... This is not something I'm unfamiliar with. I watched it up close and personal.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  12. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +531
    Atheist
    Private
    It sounds like your daughter need a different group of people to associate with. I don’t know where you live, but I live on the West coast in a very liberal city where the idea that there are standard roles for men and women would be vilified. To be different, to be other than a white christian heterosexual male is glamorized. Perhaps you live in a conservative town, obviously you liven a place where being different is not praised or supported thus your daughters inability to fit in, I can assure you she would have had no problem fitting in and being accepted in a liberal city like mine.

    In my city, people do not claim transgenderism, or non binary because of an inability to fit in, often the opposite it true, many people who would fit in traditional roles try to be something they are not in an effort to fit in.

    I can see why you have the views on this issue due to your experiences with your daughter, and maybe where you live, this might be a common reason; but where I live, an inability to fit or be appreciated in is not the reason; and I suspect these issues are more common in a liberal city like mine than in a city like yours.

    Thanks for sharing


    Ken
    BTW; what does it mean to identify as " non-binary"?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  13. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

    472
    +315
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I understand what you're saying, Ken, but that's going the wrong direction... in your "liberal" town, people have fully embraced the non-scientific and false notions about Gender and have just decided to affirm everybody in their self-delusion (so that everyone can feel good about themselves together!).

    I have no interest in affirming false narratives or made-up genders. And if someone is struggling with their gender-identity, it's not the correct solution to get them into a social context where lies are offered to assuage their shame or discomfort with themselves.

    My daughter is not a non-woman. And no matter what any group of people decide, telling her it's OK for her to deny her God-given gender is not loving. It's not right. It's not good. It's not helpful.

    We should reject the notion that all women must have matching qualities that define their person, their skills, interests, tendencies or whatever. But we should not reject the notion that Gender is actually and physically binary... male or female.

    The really odd thing is that while I fully reject gender-based stereotypes, it is not I who is guilty of propagating them... but rather it is those who claim to hate the gender-stereotypes that are most dependent upon them to define themselves... by what they are NOT!

    Ask a "trans woman" how they know they are not male... and they are forced to invoke all sorts of male-stereotypes that they are not to assert that they are not male. For me it's really quite simple... do you have a penis? Good. You're male. No stereotype... no expectation that you like sports and hate housework or anything else like that. Don't have one? Good. You're female. No stereotype or expectations that you have to "act" like whatever I or anyone else describe as "feminine." Case closed. I'm cool... you're cool. What's the problem here?

    No... those people who don't identify as their body-assigned gender depend on the stereotypes... else they have absolutely no basis upon which to claim what they are NOT... or what they think they ARE.

    I literally had this conversation with my daughter... for years, we taught her that she did NOT have to conform to societal expectations about gender or such characteristics. We never pressed her into "girly" type activities or interests. And for a long time, she too would decry all the stereotypes and labels and expectation that existed in society. BUT... when she told us that she no longer identifies as a woman (or as a man... "non-binary"), only then did she start trying to tell me how important and useful the "labels" were after all! In other words, she finally found a new label/stereotype that she felt like fit her, so she was claiming it as her own.
     
  14. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +531
    Atheist
    Private

    If that is how you feel, what is it about my suggesting that you disagree with?
    Why are such labels/stereotypes so important to her?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  15. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

    472
    +315
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I disagree that living in an "accepting" city where you are affirmed no matter what gender label you choose to wear is a positive thing.

    It might feel good to all involved, but a lie is never better than the truth.

    And if a culture is entrapped in one lie (that all people must match the common characteristics of their assigned gender), the correct answer is never to switch to a different lie (that you can be whatever "gender" you please).
    Like I said... when she struggled to fit in, the "stereotypes" told her that she didn't. So, she hated those stereotypes and labels (rightly so).

    But then she found some stereotypes/labels that she did fit into, so then she embraced them as definitional for her person. So... not she's leaning on those labels for the legitimacy of who she is as a person... Wrong solution.
     
  16. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +531
    Atheist
    Private
    I agree! My suggestion is a solution to this.

    It doesn't feel good to all involved, it is a matter of a few creating a problem where one does not exist, then providing a solution that imposes on the many who don't want to go along with the lie.

    I asked you to list what I said that you DIS agree with. All you've done thus far is provide views that goes along with the solution I provided. Perhaps you should read my original post again and tell me if there is anything that you disagree with
     
  17. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

    472
    +315
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I'm sorry... I must have misread your point.

    But rereading your post, I still don't see what you were suggesting. If it was an earlier post, I admit that I have not gone back to read everything that came before I entered the fray.
     
  18. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

    +531
    Atheist
    Private
    Biologically speaking, there is only male and female there is no disputing this. There is no such a thing as non-binary, or all of that other stuff people are trying to add, just male and female. He, him, applies to male; she, her applies to female. I'm saying we should cut out all the confusion and go with biology; instead of gender when addressing people.
     
  19. Clizby WampusCat

    Clizby WampusCat New Member

    88
    +12
    United States
    Atheist
    Married
    what about
    Intersex people?
     
  20. Sparagmos

    Sparagmos Well-Known Member

    +2,206
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes and about half of the country feels that way, but the other half doesn’t. How is your idea novel?
     
Loading...