A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Ken-1122]

what about
Intersex people?

For such rare deformities, an exception can be made.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes and about half of the country feels that way, but the other half doesn’t. How is your idea novel?

I never said my idea was novel, just that it is better than using gender because it ends the problems that exist when using gender.

 

[Sparagmos]

I never said my idea was novel, just that it is better than using gender because it ends the problems that exist when using gender.

I think it’s common knowledge Transgender people don’t want to use the pronouns associated with their sex.

 

[Ken-1122]

I think it’s common knowledge Transgender people don’t want to use the pronouns associated with their sex.

Of course not! Because that way they wouldn't have anything to complain about. I'm saying; who cares what they want, pronouns associated with your sex should be the standard.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

For such rare deformities, an exception can be made.

What kind of exception? Will you call them the pronouns they wish?

I really don't get the issue. How does it harm anyone if you use the pronouns that a person wishes? Isn't this just being respectful of another? If I called you female pronouns would that offend you? If so, then think about how a transgender person may feel when you refuse to call them what the think they are. I don't understand what is going on in a transgenders mind but when you talk with them it is something real and more than just to make them feel good. Again, I don't see the harm to anyone if we use the pronouns they wish but I do see harm to the transgender people by refusing to acknowledge who they think they are.

 

[RDKirk]

I call 'em as I see 'em.

 

[Sparagmos]

Of course not! Because that way they wouldn't have anything to complain about. I'm saying; who cares what they want, pronouns associated with your sex should be the standard.

Like I said before, about half of us care what they want. Your idea won’t change anyone’s mind. So you haven’t solved anything, you’ve just repeated what people who share your views have already said over and over.

 

[Ken-1122]

What kind of exception? Will you call them the pronouns they wish?

I will address them either he or she; not Them, Zi, or some other made up term. But these people are not the ones making a fuss about all of this.

I really don't get the issue. How does it harm anyone if you use the pronouns that a person wishes?

If a person wants to be addressed Ze, Xe, or Thon because He, or She, isn’t good enough for them, I will respectfully inform them I don’t address any of the 100 or so different genders, I address biology. Biology consists of him and her; that’s it! If they have a problem with me addressing their biology they can refrain from talking to me.

Isn't this just being respectful of another?

I don’t have time to remember a hundred different genders and which h applies to which person in order to not offend anybody, so I don’t address gender.

If I called you female pronouns would that offend you?

If you were addressing my biology correctly I would have no reason to be offended.

If so, then think about how a transgender person may feel when you refuse to call them what the think they are.

These people know their biology and once they are informed what I am addressing, they have no reason to be offended.

 

[Ken-1122]

Like I said before, about half of us care what they want. Your idea won’t change anyone’s mind. So you haven’t solved anything, you’ve just repeated what people who share your views have already said over and over.

I'm not looking to change anybody's mind.
I haven't expressed any views, all I did was make a suggestion on how to address people in a way that would prevent people from misgendering one another.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I will address them either he or she; not Them, Zi, or some other made up term. But these people are not the ones making a fuss about all of this.

How will you know what actual biology they have?

[quote If they have a problem with me addressing their biology they can refrain from talking to me.[/quote]I bet that won't be a problem.

I don’t have time to remember a hundred different genders and which h applies to which person in order to not offend anybody, so I don’t address gender.

No one is asking you to remember all the genders. When someone asks you to refer to them as a certain gender just refer to them as they wish. How does this harm you in any way?

If you were addressing my biology correctly I would have no reason to be offended.

You answered a question I didn't ask. If someone referred to you as a her and you politely corrected them and they refused to refer to you as a him, how would you react? (I am assuming you are a man)

These people know their biology and once they are informed what I am addressing, they have no reason to be offended.

You don't get to decide what offends other people. Again, how do you know another persons biology? What if you think they are male but they are actually female? Do you have x-ray vision?

 

[Ken-1122]

How will you know what actual biology they have?

The same way you do, I go by appearance. If I mistake a woman for a man and she corrects me, I will apologize and make the adjustment.

No one is asking you to remember all the genders.

If a hundred different people all have different genders, and they all expect me to address them each by their individual gender, I am expected to remember a hundred different genders.

When someone asks you to refer to them as a certain gender just refer to them as they wish. How does this harm you in any way?

How does it harm them for me to refer to them according to their biology?

You answered a question I didn't ask. If someone referred to you as a her and you politely corrected them and they refused to refer to you as a him, how would you react? (I am assuming you are a man)

If they refuse to address me according to my biology, they would be wrong and I would take it as an insult.

 

[RDKirk]

How will you know what actual biology they have?

[quote If they have a problem with me addressing their biology they can refrain from talking to me.

I bet that won't be a problem.

No one is asking you to remember all the genders. When someone asks you to refer to them as a certain gender just refer to them as they wish. How does this harm you in any way?

You answered a question I didn't ask. If someone referred to you as a her and you politely corrected them and they refused to refer to you as a him, how would you react? (I am assuming you are a man)

You don't get to decide what offends other people. Again, how do you know another persons biology? What if you think they are male but they are actually female? Do you have x-ray vision?[/QUOTE]

Real world: That's not going to happen.

Languages do not become more complex over time, they simplify over time. We continually drop old grammar rules and ignore others. Increasing immigration makes the simplification process even faster as the mass of immigrants fails to fully learn the intricacies of the grammar.

This is a gender thing that will happen: We will be using "their" and "them" as all-purpose third person possessive adjectives and pronouns. That will happen because it's a simplification of the language. It's been happening for a couple of decades anyway.

But learning 60-odd new hyper-gender pronouns is not going to stick. Immigrating Chinese barely catch on to articles. They're not learning 60-odd pronouns that change from individual to individual (if they're gender-fluid, heck, it might change from hour to hour). Making the grammar more complex simply won't stick.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The same way you do, I go by appearance. If I mistake a woman for a man and she corrects me, I will apologize and make the adjustment.

Great, why not do the same for gender?

If a hundred different people all have different genders, and they all expect me to address them each by their individual gender, I am expected to remember a hundred different genders.

Really? How many people do you regularly interact with on a daily basis that are transgender in some way? Its just about being respectful in the situation you are currently in.

How does it harm them for me to refer to them according to their biology?

Because most transgender people don't associate their biology with their gender. You are basically saying to them that they are nothing more than their biological parts. That is not true for anyone. You are denying their identity. Will you answer my question of how it harms you to address people as they wish?

If they refuse to address me according to my biology, they would be wrong and I would take it as an insult.

This answers the previous question. They feel the same way you do here when you address them according to their biology and not as they identify as. Many take it as an insult. At least this is how I understand the issue by listening to people.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Real world: That's not going to happen.

Languages do not become more complex over time, they simplify over time. We continually drop old grammar rules and ignore others. Increasing immigration makes the simplification process even faster as the mass of immigrants fails to fully learn the intricacies of the grammar.

This is a gender thing that will happen: We will be using "their" and "them" as all-purpose third person possessive adjectives and pronouns. That will happen because it's a simplification of the language. It's been happening for a couple of decades anyway.

But learning 60-odd new hyper-gender pronouns is not going to stick. Immigrating Chinese barely catch on to articles. They're not learning 60-odd pronouns that change from individual to individual (if they're gender-fluid, heck, it might change from hour to hour). Making the grammar more complex simply won't stick.

I have no problem with this if most people are comfortable with it. But for now you don't need to remember all the pronouns.

Real World: Most people still identify as male or female gender. There is only about 2% of the population that identify as transgender as I have found. So the likelihood of you interacting with 60 different genders is not realistic. I know of one transgender person that I interact with regularly. How many do you interact with? Also, I think using they/them or referring to people by their name will work in most situations.

 

[RDKirk]

Real World: Most people still identify as male or female gender. There is only about 2% of the population that identify as transgender as I have found. So the likelihood of you interacting with 60 different genders is not realistic. I know of one transgender person that I interact with regularly. How many do you interact with? Also, I think using they/them or referring to people by their name will work in most situations.

The real world is not going to bother with peculiarities that small. People don't even bother to understand the subjunctive mood.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The real world is not going to bother with peculiarities that small. People don't even bother to understand the subjunctive mood.

I don't know what this has to do with what we are talking about.

 

[Ken-1122]

Great, why not do the same for gender?

Because it’s not the same. Gender is not real, it’s a social construct based on some subjective imaginations, that vary from person to person. I don’t think the concept of gender as is being redefined should be taken seriously by society.

Really? How many people do you regularly interact with on a daily basis that are transgender in some way? Its just about being respectful in the situation you are currently in.

.
What if I wanted to identify as someone 50 years older than I currently am? Do I have a right to expect society to cater to my delusions?

Because most transgender people don't associate their biology with their gender. You are basically saying to them that they are nothing more than their biological parts. That is not true for anyone. You are denying their identity.

These people can think whatever they want of themselves, but when they start insisting I cater to their delusions, that’s where I draw the line.

Will you answer my question of how it harms you to address people as they wish?

Because if their wishes are based on false information resulting from delusions that exist only in their heads, I choose not to become a part of that.

This answers the previous question. They feel the same way you do here when you address them according to their biology and not as they identify as. Many take it as an insult. At least this is how I understand the issue by listening to people.

Biology is real, gender is not; it's only what they think is real.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't know what this has to do with what we are talking about.

You are trying to argue from a couple of directions that people ought to attend to individualistic gender language because, essentially, it's no big deal.

If it's no big deal, then the world in general is going to ignore it.

Grammar does not become more complex over time, it simplifies. Sorry, but that's the way it works. I don't even like it--I learned the rules of grammar, and I don't want to give them up (especially the Oxford comma, dang it!).

But any attempt to add new rules to grammar--especially rules that apply so peculiarly--will ultimately fail.

 

[Strathos]

Because it’s not the same. Gender is not real, it’s a social construct based on some subjective imaginations, that vary from person to person.

One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking that something that is a 'social construct' means it is not real.

Laws against murder are also social constructs, but does that mean you can go around killing people with no consequences?

 

[Ken-1122]

One of the biggest mistakes people make is thinking that something that is a 'social construct' means it is not real.

Laws against murder are also social constructs, but does that mean you can go around killing people with no consequences?

Laws don't vary from person to person.