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A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Ken-1122, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Though I personally may not have a problem with pronouns, I have a problem with the law forcing me or anyone else to use them.
     
  2. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    How about if YOU go read a book and use it to answer my question!
     
  3. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    What? You expect me to remember the name of all the discussion boards, or opinion pages I've read over the years? Really?
     
  4. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I said nothing about men dressed as women sneaking into restrooms.
    When the trans gender laws was passed in my State, signs were posted in the Gym I go to, parks and and other public places. The guys who caused all the trouble were not trans genders, but guys who made no attempt to even pretend to be transgendered, and they would use the law to go to the ladies room knowing nobody would say anything. Like the article of the man who stripped in front of the little girls swim team, he knew he could get away with it because the way the law was written, he could. My suggestion of using biology to determine men vs women would fix all of that.
     
  5. ToddNotTodd

    ToddNotTodd Iconoclast

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    But you already said that if someone corrects you in the pronoun you should be using, you wouldn’t keep using that offending pronoun. So whether or not there’s a law against using specific pronouns with specific people, it wouldn’t make any difference, since you’d follow the law anyway...
     
  6. ToddNotTodd

    ToddNotTodd Iconoclast

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    There’s nothing to fix, because there’s no issue.

    Point me to an article that describes “guys who made no attempt to even pretend to be transgendered, and they would use the law to go to the ladies room knowing nobody would say anything.” I’d like to see what the response was.
     
  7. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I don't own a gun either, but I don't want the law forbidding me or anybody else if we wanted to. I don't go to Church either, but I don't want a law forbidding me or anybody else from going if we wanted to. There are a lot of things I don't do that I don't want the laws saying I or nobody else can do if we wanted to.

    Man strips in front of girls in locker room, says transgender law allows it

    Check mate.
     
  8. ToddNotTodd

    ToddNotTodd Iconoclast

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    So you’re against laws that keep people from harming other people? That really says something about you...

    The article I posted, which you obviously didn’t read, mentions the article you posted. It’s the one incident like it that the authors of the article found.

    Now, when you posted, you said “guys”. Where’s the articles that talk about “guys who go to ladies rooms”, like you reported? “Guys” indicates to me that you believe this to be wide spread. But from the article we know it isn’t.

    You really should know the rules of chess before you falsely claim check mate...

    Here’s the article again, so you can actually read it this time.

    Anti-Trans 'Bathroom Bills' Are Based On Lies. Here's The Research To Show It. | HuffPost
     
  9. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    Social roles encompass fashion and grooming. That’s not biology, that’s gender expression.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  10. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    What did I say that suggested I was against laws keeping people from harming other people? Nothing. That really says something about you...

    Actually the article I posted mentioned 2 separate incidents, one from Seattle, and the other from Olympia. How is it that he did all of this research, could only find one incident and an article from a simple google search shows two? I suspect he didn't try very hard. I've heard of instances at the gym and have heard of instances from other people. This stuff is never reported because it is not illegal. But as far as I am concerned, one is too much if it can easily be fixed; and IMO it can be fixed by focusing on biology rather than gender. And perhaps you can explain it to me, why would someone feel uncomfortable showering around people with the same sex organs as their own?
     
  11. ToddNotTodd

    ToddNotTodd Iconoclast

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    The Seattle incident has been reported to be a man testing the law, and not someone trying to assault anyone. So it hardly even counts.

    Seattle man undresses in women's locker room at local pool to test new transgender bathroom rule

    The Olympia incident was an actual trans woman, so it obviously doesn’t count.

    You’re apparently not reading carefully. I also doubt you’ve read the article I provided.

    Uh huh. If you don’t provide good evidence of this there’s no reason to believe you.

    There’s nothing to “fix”.

    Because history shows it’s dangerous for trans women in male facilities, and trans men in women’s facilities will cause all sorts of panic. Are you advocating for panicking women?
     
  12. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    They both count because they both involve biological men using the women’s room. Whether they are violent, or think they are women is irrelevant.


    Do you have any data to support this? I will bet it is more dangerous for trans women in female facilities and trans men in male facilities. I believe people will be less offended when they go to the facilities according to their biology than their mental issues

    No, that’s why I’m advocating for biology instead of subjective mental issues. IMO people are more comfortable using public facilities with someone who shares their biology regardless of their outter appearance, than someone of the opposite sex.
     
  13. ToddNotTodd

    ToddNotTodd Iconoclast

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    Of course it's relevant. The only reason we're discussing this is because of the supposed harm that will happen if trans people use the bathroom they're comfortable using. In neither of these cases was there any attempt at harm.


    https://fenwayhealth.org/wp-content...-Transgender-Bathroom-Bill-Brief_v8-pages.pdf

    Transgender teens in schools with bathroom restrictions are at higher risk of sexual assault, study says - CNN

    Study finds no link between transgender rights law and bathroom crimes - The Boston Globe

    And as for trans men, you're saying that this person isn't going to cause a scene in a women's room?

    [​IMG]

    In your opinion. Not in the opinion of people I know, include my wife and my nieces. Small minded thinking is how we ended up with separate bathrooms for black people.
     
  14. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    The guy who stripped his clothes off in front of 12-13 year old girls in their locker room was not violent, but it is a mistake to assume he did no harm.


    If a woman takes enough steroids to the point of getting facial hair and looking like a man, she will get away with using the men’s restroom, (although the showers would be another story) going by gender will not stop that, but most of the problems is when they don’t look like the opposite sex.

    Of course everybody you know agrees with you, and everybody I know agrees with me. This is why these types of discussions are important, though we will never agree with each other, at least we get a different perspective.
     
  15. ToddNotTodd

    ToddNotTodd Iconoclast

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    So then describe the harm being done.

    And who is the arbiter of what looks "enough" like the same sex? These arbitrary distinctions are completely unenforceable. I know women who are very masculine looking, and men who are very feminine looking.

    How about this. We pass a new law, the Ken-1122 Law, which posts guards at public restrooms who checks the genitals of anyone who looks "too much" like the opposite sex.

    Any time one of the guards gets it wrong, you yourself get fined $10,000.

    Seem reasonable to you?

    I don't believe all opinions hold the same weight. I mean, I'm sure I can find white people in the south who have the opinion that blacks should have separate bathrooms.

    Should we hold those opinion equal to opinions that aren't inherently hateful?
     
  16. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    An adult male stripping in front of 12 year old girls? That's indecent exposure.

    The transgender person himself is his own arbiter; just as it has always been. If a person feel they look enough like a male, going to the men's room they will go to the mens room just as they have always been doing. However when it comes to shower facilities they would probably make a different choice if they have female sex organs.
    But would you mind answering my question? Why would a person feel uncomfortable showering where everyone else has the same sex organs as they have? Why must they be the only ones with different sex organs in order to feel comfortable?

    It isn't about being hateful, it's about preventing those with mental disorders from imposing their mental issues on everybody else.
     
  17. Pommer

    Pommer Autodidact polymath

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    “How might we come up with a policy that will make these people just shut up about it all!?”, is not a good look.

     
  18. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Good luck with that one!
     
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  19. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Right. The problem, of course, is that if we can demand that people shut up, there's no reason they shouldn't demand that we shut up. And of course, plenty of people do. But we don't want the government to shut any of us up, which is why we have the 1st amendment.
     
  20. MyChainsAreGone

    MyChainsAreGone Image Bearer

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    This is a fallacy... and submission to the culture's goofy and indefensible definitions.

    GENder is the based on my physical proGENitive capacity and describes how my proGENy will be conceived so that my GENetics will be passes to the next GENeration and continue my family's GENeology.

    Nothing "perceived social role" about that... it's a scientific/medical term, not a social construct.

    For all practical purposes, when used in the place of the word "gender," "sex" means the same thing.

    Your sex is Male or Female. So is your gender.
     
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