A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

[Ken-1122]

Your OP specifically mentions pronouns. So apparently it is part of the issue.

Though I personally may not have a problem with pronouns, I have a problem with the law forcing me or anyone else to use them.

 

[Ken-1122]

Look, I’m not playing games with you. You’re not remotely interested in learning or empathy. Gender dysphoria is real, it’s a medical term. Go read a book.

How about if YOU go read a book and use it to answer my question!

 

[Ken-1122]

Such as?

What? You expect me to remember the name of all the discussion boards, or opinion pages I've read over the years? Really?

 

[Ken-1122]

I’m not going to believe that without some evidence to back that up.

Cisgender men sneaking into restrooms dressed as women is an incredibly rare occurrence.

Anti-Trans 'Bathroom Bills' Are Based On Lies. Here's The Research To Show It. | HuffPost

I said nothing about men dressed as women sneaking into restrooms.
When the trans gender laws was passed in my State, signs were posted in the Gym I go to, parks and and other public places. The guys who caused all the trouble were not trans genders, but guys who made no attempt to even pretend to be transgendered, and they would use the law to go to the ladies room knowing nobody would say anything. Like the article of the man who stripped in front of the little girls swim team, he knew he could get away with it because the way the law was written, he could. My suggestion of using biology to determine men vs women would fix all of that.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Though I personally may not have a problem with pronouns, I have a problem with the law forcing me or anyone else to use them.

But you already said that if someone corrects you in the pronoun you should be using, you wouldn’t keep using that offending pronoun. So whether or not there’s a law against using specific pronouns with specific people, it wouldn’t make any difference, since you’d follow the law anyway...

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I said nothing about men dressed as women sneaking into restrooms.
When the trans gender laws was passed in my State, signs were posted in the Gym I go to, parks and and other public places. The guys who caused all the trouble were not trans genders, but guys who made no attempt to even pretend to be transgendered, and they would use the law to go to the ladies room knowing nobody would say anything. Like the article of the man who stripped in front of the little girls swim team, he knew he could get away with it because the way the law was written, he could. My suggestion of using biology to determine men vs women would fix all of that.

There’s nothing to fix, because there’s no issue.

Point me to an article that describes “guys who made no attempt to even pretend to be transgendered, and they would use the law to go to the ladies room knowing nobody would say anything.” I’d like to see what the response was.

 

[Ken-1122]

But you already said that if someone corrects you in the pronoun you should be using, you wouldn’t keep using that offending pronoun. So whether or not there’s a law against using specific pronouns with specific people, it wouldn’t make any difference, since you’d follow the law anyway...

I don't own a gun either, but I don't want the law forbidding me or anybody else if we wanted to. I don't go to Church either, but I don't want a law forbidding me or anybody else from going if we wanted to. There are a lot of things I don't do that I don't want the laws saying I or nobody else can do if we wanted to.

Point me to an article that describes “guys who made no attempt to even pretend to be transgendered, and they would use the law to go to the ladies room knowing nobody would say anything.” I’d like to see what the response was.

Man strips in front of girls in locker room, says transgender law allows it

Check mate.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

There are a lot of things I don't do that I don't want the laws saying I or nobody else can do if we wanted to.

So you’re against laws that keep people from harming other people? That really says something about you...

Check mate.

The article I posted, which you obviously didn’t read, mentions the article you posted. It’s the one incident like it that the authors of the article found.

Now, when you posted, you said “guys”. Where’s the articles that talk about “guys who go to ladies rooms”, like you reported? “Guys” indicates to me that you believe this to be wide spread. But from the article we know it isn’t.

You really should know the rules of chess before you falsely claim check mate...

Here’s the article again, so you can actually read it this time.

Anti-Trans 'Bathroom Bills' Are Based On Lies. Here's The Research To Show It. | HuffPost

 

[gaara4158]

Gender is about the social roles associated with the sex of a person.

Sex and gender distinction - Wikipedia

When I look at a woman, I don't assume any type of role for her, I see her biology, but the role she is supposed to play in life because she is female is not something I assume.

Social roles encompass fashion and grooming. That’s not biology, that’s gender expression.

 

[Ken-1122]

So you’re against laws that keep people from harming other people? That really says something about you...

What did I say that suggested I was against laws keeping people from harming other people? Nothing. That really says something about you...

The article I posted, which you obviously didn’t read, mentions the article you posted. It’s the one incident like it that the authors of the article found.

Actually the article I posted mentioned 2 separate incidents, one from Seattle, and the other from Olympia. How is it that he did all of this research, could only find one incident and an article from a simple google search shows two? I suspect he didn't try very hard. I've heard of instances at the gym and have heard of instances from other people. This stuff is never reported because it is not illegal. But as far as I am concerned, one is too much if it can easily be fixed; and IMO it can be fixed by focusing on biology rather than gender. And perhaps you can explain it to me, why would someone feel uncomfortable showering around people with the same sex organs as their own?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Actually the article I posted mentioned 2 separate incidents, one from Seattle, and the other from Olympia.

The Seattle incident has been reported to be a man testing the law, and not someone trying to assault anyone. So it hardly even counts.

Seattle man undresses in women's locker room at local pool to test new transgender bathroom rule

The Olympia incident was an actual trans woman, so it obviously doesn’t count.

How is it that he did all of this research, could only find one incident and an article from a simple google search shows two?

You’re apparently not reading carefully. I also doubt you’ve read the article I provided.

I've heard of instances at the gym and have heard of instances from other people. This stuff is never reported because it is not illegal.

Uh huh. If you don’t provide good evidence of this there’s no reason to believe you.

But as far as I am concerned, one is too much if it can easily be fixed;

There’s nothing to “fix”.

and IMO it can be fixed by focusing on biology rather than gender. And perhaps you can explain it to me, why would someone feel uncomfortable showering around people with the same sex organs as their own?

Because history shows it’s dangerous for trans women in male facilities, and trans men in women’s facilities will cause all sorts of panic. Are you advocating for panicking women?

 

[Ken-1122]

The Seattle incident has been reported to be a man testing the law, and not someone trying to assault anyone. So it hardly even counts.

Seattle man undresses in women's locker room at local pool to test new transgender bathroom rule

The Olympia incident was an actual trans woman, so it obviously doesn’t count.

They both count because they both involve biological men using the women’s room. Whether they are violent, or think they are women is irrelevant.

Because history shows it’s dangerous for trans women in male facilities, and trans men in women’s facilities will cause all sorts of panic.

Do you have any data to support this? I will bet it is more dangerous for trans women in female facilities and trans men in male facilities. I believe people will be less offended when they go to the facilities according to their biology than their mental issues

Are you advocating for panicking women?

No, that’s why I’m advocating for biology instead of subjective mental issues. IMO people are more comfortable using public facilities with someone who shares their biology regardless of their outter appearance, than someone of the opposite sex.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

They both count because they both involve biological men using the women’s room. Whether they are violent, or think they are women is irrelevant.

Of course it's relevant. The only reason we're discussing this is because of the supposed harm that will happen if trans people use the bathroom they're comfortable using. In neither of these cases was there any attempt at harm.

Do you have any data to support this? I will bet it is more dangerous for trans women in female facilities and trans men in male facilities. I believe people will be less offended when they go to the facilities according to their biology than their mental issues

https://fenwayhealth.org/wp-content...-Transgender-Bathroom-Bill-Brief_v8-pages.pdf

Transgender teens in schools with bathroom restrictions are at higher risk of sexual assault, study says - CNN

Study finds no link between transgender rights law and bathroom crimes - The Boston Globe

And as for trans men, you're saying that this person isn't going to cause a scene in a women's room?

No, that’s why I’m advocating for biology instead of subjective mental issues. IMO people are more comfortable using public facilities with someone who shares their biology regardless of their outter appearance, than someone of the opposite sex.

In your opinion. Not in the opinion of people I know, include my wife and my nieces. Small minded thinking is how we ended up with separate bathrooms for black people.

 

[Ken-1122]

Of course it's relevant. The only reason we're discussing this is because of the supposed harm that will happen if trans people use the bathroom they're comfortable using. In neither of these cases was there any attempt at harm.

The guy who stripped his clothes off in front of 12-13 year old girls in their locker room was not violent, but it is a mistake to assume he did no harm.

And as for trans men, you're saying that this person isn't going to cause a scene in a women's room?

If a woman takes enough steroids to the point of getting facial hair and looking like a man, she will get away with using the men’s restroom, (although the showers would be another story) going by gender will not stop that, but most of the problems is when they don’t look like the opposite sex.

In your opinion. Not in the opinion of people I know, include my wife and my nieces.

Of course everybody you know agrees with you, and everybody I know agrees with me. This is why these types of discussions are important, though we will never agree with each other, at least we get a different perspective.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The guy who stripped his clothes off in front of 12-13 year old girls in their locker room was not violent, but it is a mistake to assume he did no harm.

So then describe the harm being done.

If a woman takes enough steroids to the point of getting facial hair and looking like a man, she will get away with using the men’s restroom, (although the showers would be another story) going by gender will not stop that, but most of the problems is when they don’t look like the opposite sex.

And who is the arbiter of what looks "enough" like the same sex? These arbitrary distinctions are completely unenforceable. I know women who are very masculine looking, and men who are very feminine looking.

How about this. We pass a new law, the Ken-1122 Law, which posts guards at public restrooms who checks the genitals of anyone who looks "too much" like the opposite sex.

Any time one of the guards gets it wrong, you yourself get fined $10,000.

Seem reasonable to you?

Of course everybody you know agrees with you, and everybody I know agrees with me. This is why these types of discussions are important, though we will never agree with each other, at least we get a different perspective.

I don't believe all opinions hold the same weight. I mean, I'm sure I can find white people in the south who have the opinion that blacks should have separate bathrooms.

Should we hold those opinion equal to opinions that aren't inherently hateful?

 

[Ken-1122]

So then describe the harm being done.

An adult male stripping in front of 12 year old girls? That's indecent exposure.

And who is the arbiter of what looks "enough" like the same sex?

The transgender person himself is his own arbiter; just as it has always been. If a person feel they look enough like a male, going to the men's room they will go to the mens room just as they have always been doing. However when it comes to shower facilities they would probably make a different choice if they have female sex organs.
But would you mind answering my question? Why would a person feel uncomfortable showering where everyone else has the same sex organs as they have? Why must they be the only ones with different sex organs in order to feel comfortable?

I don't believe all opinions hold the same weight. I mean, I'm sure I can find white people in the south who have the opinion that blacks should have separate bathrooms.

Should we hold those opinion equal to opinions that aren't inherently hateful?

It isn't about being hateful, it's about preventing those with mental disorders from imposing their mental issues on everybody else.

 

[Pommer]

Hence the problem. If we take gender out of the picture, they will have nothing to complain about.

“How might we come up with a policy that will make these people just shut up about it all!?”, is not a good look.

 

[Ken-1122]

“How might we come up with a policy that will make these people just shut up about it all!?”, is not a good look.

Good luck with that one!

 

[hedrick]

“How might we come up with a policy that will make these people just shut up about it all!?”, is not a good look.

Right. The problem, of course, is that if we can demand that people shut up, there's no reason they shouldn't demand that we shut up. And of course, plenty of people do. But we don't want the government to shut any of us up, which is why we have the 1st amendment.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

The difference? Sex refers to biology, (XX vs XY chromosomes, sex organs, etc) where as gender refers to perceived social roles based on sex.

This is a fallacy... and submission to the culture's goofy and indefensible definitions.

GENder is the based on my physical proGENitive capacity and describes how my proGENy will be conceived so that my GENetics will be passes to the next GENeration and continue my family's GENeology.

Nothing "perceived social role" about that... it's a scientific/medical term, not a social construct.

For all practical purposes, when used in the place of the word "gender," "sex" means the same thing.

Your sex is Male or Female. So is your gender.