A Question

[Phil 1:21]

I didn't say there was a good spin.
They shouldn't spin it at all.
They should just tell the truth.

But, instead of just reporting the facts, they put the worst spin on it they can.
If it was one of there people being accused of this I assure you they would want to cover it up. Or at least make light of it.

Perhaps you could give an example? Personally, I'd be more offended that hundreds of children were systematically molested than I'd be at the news media that reported it, but that's just me.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don't know enough about it to disagree, but I do know there are those who hate the church.

I agree with that too.
But this has nothing to do with hating the church.
The news is true.
The cover up is true.
The children are damaged forever.
The priests are guilty and do physical, emotional and spiritual harm.

 

[frater_domus]

Nah, we should instead see Islam as misguided because of their denial of the true nature and deeds of Christ and recognize that the teachings of the catholic church strongly diverge from biblical teachings. Besides, arguing about the evil among ourselves is meaningless and when seen from God's perspective we are all sinners. What matters is who is redeemed by Christ and who is not.

 

[Doug Melven]

Perhaps you could give an example? Personally, I'd be more offended that hundreds of children were systematically molested than I'd be at the news media that reported it, but that's just me.

If there were over a 1000, they could say "thousands".
If some of these priests just touched a child (as bad as that is) they would put the spin on that they all knew them intimately.
Because touching is a fact that doesn't sell headlines.

 

[AlexDTX]

Only a small percentage of Muslims are terrorists, so we shouldn't see Islam as evil.

Only a smaller percentage of Catholics abuse children, but we should see the Catholic Church as evil?

It seems we have three issues to address.
First, both Catholicism and Islam are organizations.
Second, both are filled with people who are following a faith.
Third, all mankind is sinful until they are redeemed by the blood of Christ.

Regarding the third point Catholicism has enough of the Gospel that there are many who are redeemed with the new birth, whereas no Muslim is redeemed.

Regarding the first point, both organizations have elements that enable abuse of power, and let us not forget Protestant organizations, too. I was an atheist led to Christ by a messianic Jew. I attended the Protestant congregation he attended which was the Assemblies of God in Metairie, LA. Down the road in Baton Rouge Jimmy Swaggart had his congregation. While I was a new believer scandal broke out when it was revealed that Jimmy Swaggart frequented prostitutes on Airline Highway and had an affair with Marvin Gorman's wife. Then Jim and Tammy Baker fell into disgrace at that same time. This is one reason I have nothing to do with organized religion anymore.

 

[GingerBeer]

Only a small percentage of Muslims are terrorists, so we shouldn't see Islam as evil.

Only a smaller percentage of Catholics abuse children, but we should see the Catholic Church as evil?

Those who are bigoted against Catholicism may say that. More careful people would be circumspect and say little to condemn so many people, close to 1.2 or more thousand millions of people.

 

[GingerBeer]

No of course not. We should see the Catholic Church as seriously flawed because of the doctrines that they explicitly say they believe, not because of abuses from Catholic clergy which are condemned by their own church.

When you say "we" you are not speaking for me.

 

[th1bill]

Only a small percentage of Muslims are terrorists, so we shouldn't see Islam as evil.

Only a smaller percentage of Catholics abuse children, but we should see the Catholic Church as evil?

That depends, entirely, ln from whence one derives their definition from. Source is always relevant. YHWH teaches that it is evil to worship any god other than Him making the Muslim evil. The Catholic? Just as the protestant, it depends on whether or not they have a personal Salvation Relationship with YHWH and thus, try to walk in His statutes.

 

[Phil 1:21]

If there were over a 1000, they could say "thousands".
If some of these priests just touched a child (as bad as that is) they would put the spin on that they all knew them intimately.
Because touching is a fact that doesn't sell headlines.

Are you able to provide an example?

 

[GodsGrace101]

It seems we have three issues to address.
First, both Catholicism and Islam are organizations.
Second, both are filled with people who are following a faith.
Third, all mankind is sinful until they are redeemed by the blood of Christ.

Regarding the third point Catholicism has enough of the Gospel that there are many who are redeemed with the new birth, whereas no Muslim is redeemed.

Regarding the first point, both organizations have elements that enable abuse of power, and let us not forget Protestant organizations, too. I was an atheist led to Christ by a messianic Jew. I attended the Protestant congregation he attended which was the Assemblies of God in Metairie, LA. Down the road in Baton Rouge Jimmy Swaggart had his congregation. While I was a new believer scandal broke out when it was revealed that Jimmy Swaggart frequented prostitutes on Airline Highway and had an affair with Marvin Gorman's wife. Then Jim and Tammy Baker fell into disgrace at that same time. This is one reason I have nothing to do with organized religion anymore.

I always loved JS's preaching and went to see him at Madison Square Garden back in the 80's. I think a couple of times if I remember right. It was like going to a Christian party and I was a pretty new Christian.

I was very disappointed when the scandal broke out. Didn't Jesus say to do what they say not what they do?
Mathew 23:3

But I believe that was different. Adults, consentual,,,still wrong for HIM but with children it's downright EVIL.

 

[Willing-heart]

The bible tells us very clearly that there are only two supernatural powers in the world – one is a little supernatural power and the other is a mighty supernatural power, there is Satan’s power and there is God’s power. The question you just have to ask yourself is this, “which power are you dealing with? Which power is at work in Islam? Is it the power of God, the one true living God (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)?” We need to remember that Satan is very subtle, he is clever enough at disguising evil as good, right as wrong, which he succeeded at right from the beginning when he tempted Adam and Eve to give in to sin.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The bible tells us very clearly that there are only two supernatural powers in the world – one is a little supernatural power and the other is a mighty supernatural power, there is Satan’s power and there is God’s power. The question you just have to ask yourself is this, “which power are you dealing with? Which power is at work in Islam? Is it the power of God, the one true living God (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)?” We need to remember that Satan is very subtle, he is clever enough at disguising evil as good, right as wrong, which he succeeded at right from the beginning when he tempted Adam and Eve to give in to sin.

Agreed!
There are only two powers...

We serve one or we're serving the other.
No in between, no middle ground, no grey area.

Jesus said if you are not against us, you are for us.

 

[Willing-heart]

Agreed!
There are only two powers...

We serve one or we're serving the other.
No in between, no middle ground, no grey area.

Jesus said if you are not against us, you are for us.

Very true, it's plain black and white. The reason we share the gospel with Muslims is simply because we desire that they come out of that darkness of Islam into the only light of Christ. Salvation is not even guaranteed in Islam, with the exception of those who die in Jihad (holy war) or in pilgrimage to Mecca, and so Muslims work hard to lead a good life. We ought to witness and pray for our Muslim friends and neighbour in love, so God can work in their hearts and save them by grace through faith in Christ.

 

[dreadnought]

I agree with that too.
But this has nothing to do with hating the church.
The news is true.
The cover up is true.
The children are damaged forever.
The priests are guilty and do physical, emotional and spiritual harm.

Those guilty should be exposed for what they've done, but those who hate the church will try to put the church in the worst light possible.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Those guilty should be exposed for what they've done, but those who hate the church will try to put the church in the worst light possible.

Dreadnought !!
The light can't get any worse than this!

 

[dreadnought]

Dreadnought !!
The light can't get any worse than this!

I haven't been paying close attention, but it's certainly an opportunity for the church haters to celebrate.

 

[AlexDTX]

I always loved JS's preaching and went to see him at Madison Square Garden back in the 80's. I think a couple of times if I remember right. It was like going to a Christian party and I was a pretty new Christian.

I was very disappointed when the scandal broke out. Didn't Jesus say to do what they say not what they do?
Mathew 23:3

But I believe that was different. Adults, consentual,,,still wrong for HIM but with children it's downright EVIL.

Yes it is. But my point was that the temptation in men to abuse others is greater in organizations. However, such evil is also done outside organized religion. My transition out of organized religion with paid staff was in house church gatherings. In one house church it was two friends and their children. One of them was a Bible translator for Wycliff, which translates Bibles in all languages of the world. The man had an exquisitely beautiful 16 year old daughter, of whom he would joke that his Middle Eastern friends had offered 12 goats for. I never had a strong sense of the Spirit's presence in the fellowship and told them so. They were offended so my wife and I left to honor their wishes for their home. Years later the other father sought me out and apologized to me for saying there was no sense of the Lord in their home. His 16 year old daughter had confessed to her mother that her father had sex with her many times. This is why I could not sense the Lord's presence in their fellowship.

This evil is pervasive throughout the world because so many of the very wealthy aristocracy in the corporate world, political world, royalty and religious rulers are satanists. This is nothing new. Read the book of Ezekiel. He was a Israeli priest in the Babylonian captivity whom the Lord took back to the Temple in Jerusalem by the Spirit to show him the hidden chambers of Satan worship used by the Levitical priests before the captivity. This is the reason they were exiled out of Israel by the Lord. Satanic ritual abuse involves so many horrific acts (almost always including sex) against children and adults. Remember, too, the Jews were offering their children in ritual sacrifice to the god Moloch where they burned them in the valley on Hinnom, from which we get the Greek word Gehenna.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I haven't been paying close attention, but it's certainly an opportunity for the church haters to celebrate.

Yes. I'm sure they ARE celebrating.
It's with the CC so maybe that's why you're not caught up.
I don't read about it too much because I find it incredibly depressing to think that a "man of God" could stoop so low.
Stoop so low? I don't even have a suitable term for it.

 

[dreadnought]

Yes. I'm sure they ARE celebrating.
It's with the CC so maybe that's why you're not caught up.
I don't read about it too much because I find it incredibly depressing to think that a "man of God" could stoop so low.
Stoop so low? I don't even have a suitable term for it.

But I find it hard to believe that the problem is as extensive as they say it is.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes it is. But my point was that the temptation in men to abuse others is greater in organizations. However, such evil is also done outside organized religion. My transition out of organized religion with paid staff was in house church gatherings. In one house church it was two friends and their children. One of them was a Bible translator for Wycliff, which translates Bibles in all languages of the world. The man had an exquisitely beautiful 16 year old daughter, of whom he would joke that his Middle Eastern friends had offered 12 goats for. I never had a strong sense of the Spirit's presence in the fellowship and told them so. They were offended so my wife and I left to honor their wishes for their home. Years later the other father sought me out and apologized to me for saying there was no sense of the Lord in their home. His 16 year old daughter had confessed to her mother that her father had sex with her many times. This is why I could not sense the Lord's presence in their fellowship.

This evil is pervasive throughout the world because so many of the very wealthy aristocracy in the corporate world, political world, royalty and religious rulers are satanists. This is nothing new. Read the book of Ezekiel. He was a Israeli priest in the Babylonian captivity whom the Lord took back to the Temple in Jerusalem by the Spirit to show him the hidden chambers of Satan worship used by the Levitical priests before the captivity. This is the reason they were exiled out of Israel by the Lord. Satanic ritual abuse involves so many horrific acts (almost always including sex) against children and adults. Remember, too, the Jews were offering their children in ritual sacrifice to the god Moloch where they burned them in the valley on Hinnom, from which we get the Greek word Gehenna.

I agree. What is that saying?:
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

About Jephthah, I was taught that the Israelites did not permit human sacrifice and that because of this they were more advanced that they're counter parts of that time.
Leviticus 18:21 speaks to this. I'm going to have to read up on this. I haven't concentrated on the O.T. in many years, being the necessity of knowing the N.T. and I'm no scholar!
(necessity because I taught our faith to kids).