A question about Job.

[bmjackson]

Why would God call a man who trusted in his own righteousness my servant?

 

[brinny]

good question.

 

[Setyoufree]

Why would God call a man who trusted in his own righteousness my servant?

To answer that we can look at the life of Saul, before he became Paul:

1 Tim 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.

Wait, how did God consider Saul faithful? According to Phil 3:6 he persecuted the church.

13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

God accepted Saul, because he was honest, although deceived. Saul had a zeal for God! He believed in God, but there was a problem.

The same was true of the Jews:

Romans 10:2 "For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge."

There's that same phrase that was used by both God & Elihu concerning Job. Let's review:

"Job opens his mouth with empty talk; without knowledge he multiplies words." (Job 35:16)

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?"

"Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: .... 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.... 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

The Jews, like Job, had a zeal for God, but not based on knowledge. That simply means that they were ignorant.

Romans 10:2 "For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God's righteousness."

"They did now know"! That means they were ignorant. That ignorance led to self-righteousness & legalism.

Job did not know that his self-righteous was filthy rags before God, but yet God accepted Job calling him his servant.

Job was self-deceived like both Saul and the Jews, but unlike the Jews both Job and Saul repented from their self-righteousness.

 

[brinny]

We're on Job. Why did God call Job His servant? Did He ever stop calling Job His servant? Was Job ever, from the beginning of the book of Job, through the last chapter, NOT a servant of God?

 

[Setyoufree]

We're on Job. Why did God call Job His servant? Did He ever stop calling Job His servant? Was Job ever, from the beginning of the book of Job, through the last chapter, NOT a servant of God?

Like I said: "Job did not know that his self-righteous was filthy rags before God, but yet God accepted Job calling him his servant."

 

[bmjackson]

It is Romans 10.1. A typo.

 

[Setyoufree]

It is Romans 10.1. A typo.

Romans 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Yes, they wouldn't accept salvation because in their eyes they were good, holy people. After all they had the law....They had Moses....Abraham was their father.....They were very content with their own righteousness. They were so content that when Christ came along and pointed out their self-righteousness that they murdered the Son of God.

Yet God loved Israel, as did Paul.

 

[bmjackson]

God loves all men but if they have not come to Christ and saved then they go to hell and are not servants of God.

What do you say happens to them?

 

[Setyoufree]

God loves all men but if they have not come to Christ and saved then they go to hell and are not servants of God.

Okay....I would have said it a bit different. They come under the curse of the law, that ends in the lake of fire.

So, what you are saying, is Saul and the unbelieving Jews were not servants of God, but Job was. Hence Job was in a saved condition. Is that your point?

 

[Setyoufree]

So, what you are saying, is Saul and the unbelieving Jews were not servants of God, but Job was. Hence Job was in a saved condition. Is that your point?

IF so, let's look at something Paul said to the Galatian believers (servants of God):

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you (believers in Galatia) are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel ; 7 which is really not another ; only there are some (i.e., the Judaizers) who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed ! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed !

 

[Setyoufree]

IF so, let's look at something Paul said to the Galatian believers (servants of God):

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you (believers in Galatia) are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel ; 7 which is really not another ; only there are some (i.e., the Judaizers) who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed ! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed !

To get the context let's read on:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? ....

10 All who rely on the works of the law (legalistic attempts at justifying one's self before God) are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The just by faith shall live"

 

[bmjackson]

So, what you are saying, is Saul and the unbelieving Jews were not servants of God, but Job was. Hence Job was in a saved condition. Is that your point?

To be in a saved condition, one must be trusting in God's righteousness and not the flesh. Then one is a servant of God, and it applies both in NT and OT times.

So, if one is walking in holiness ie the righteousness of God, one is justified.

Unfortunately many believers are not walking in holiness, or are deceived into walking in the flesh by those who preach the false gospel that Paul talks about and like the Galatians, in danger of falling under the curse of the law. This gospel is the one that says we cannot stop sinning in this life.

This does not apply to Job. His fault was that of expecting the presence of God to be with him but when it left him he was plunged into deep despair, (symbolised by the ash heap) the despair that only the holy know about as there is nothing they can do about it. They seek God but He is nowhere to be found. They long to know if indeed they have sinned (they have not) because they are more than willing to turn from any sin they are shown. But they are not. He keeps His silence. This is severe suffering indeed and is spoken of by others in the OT. Imagine if you fall out with your dearly loved spouse but they are taken away from you before you can put things right and apologise.

Job only praised God when his world fell down around him whereas a self righteous man would be angry. The scriptures are clear. It was when the ash heap was his dwelling that is to say, when God left him that he goes through the dark night, which is an experience that none but the righteous go through.

You are missing all of this subtlety and nuance.

Thanks brinny. I have studied this book very deeply for some time.

 

[DarylFawcett]

MOD HAT ON!!!!!

I would like to remind you all to focus on the thread topic and discuss it respectfully. Goading and flaming each other is inappropriate and not what Christ would do, therefore, please stop doing that. I would hate to need to close down this thread.


UPDATE: A couple of posts were removed for a little clean up. If you notice a post of yours missing it was more than likely removed in the clean up. Also it is quite possible a further cleaning may take place.

MOD HAT OFF!!!!!

 

[bmjackson]

Could you be more precise about what you are objecting to please so l can avoid it in the future? Thanks.

 

[brinny]

Hi Brenda (i saw you posted yer name earlier...that's my name too)

Thank you for your insight regarding Job, one of the most misunderstood books, and most misunderstood men of God in the Bible.

It helped me immensely as i continue studying the book and the life of this man of God. May God bless you as you continue striving to seek the Truth in God's Word and in the lives of His servants.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In Romans 1.1 Paul says that his prayer is for those without knowledge, that they might be saved. If any man is not saved, then he is under the judgement of God, and bound for the fires of hell. He is not accepted by God and your claim that he is, is outside of evangelical Christianity and heretical and you have no business taking part on a Christian forum.

Job was lacking in knowledge indeed but it was not knowledge of the Almighty God that he lacked but knowledge about the spiritual pathway he was on where man must walk by faith. The other comments about Paul are untenable with orthodox Christianity as he was said to be God's enemy of the cross not God's servant.

I have never read such twisting of the scriptures nor such bad exegesis and can only issue a warning to you that your teaching is not from the Holy Spirit.

To whom are you replying to?

FWIW, Paul never mentions "gehenna" in any of his epistles. How come?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7464995/
Why no mention of "gehenna" in Paul's Epistles?

Matthew 23:2
saying "upon the seat of Moses are seated the Scribes and the Pharisees
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how may ye be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......... [Ezekiel 39:12/Luke 16:24,26]

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

MOD HAT ON!!!!!

I would like to remind you all to focus on the thread topic and discuss it respectfully. Goading and flaming each other is inappropriate and not what Christ would do, therefore, please stop doing that. I would hate to need to close down this thread.

MOD HAT OFF!!!!!

Could you be more precise about what you are objecting to please so l can avoid it in the future? Thanks.

What makes you think he is referring to you?


.

 

[Seeking Him]

I think we can learn alot from God's words to Job. Where were you when I laid the earth's foundations? When the angels shouted for joy. Can you bring forth the constellaions in their seasons? Can you bring forth leviathan with a hook?
How small is our understanding when put next to El Elyon the transcendent one. El Shaddai the all powerful. The all knowing God.
Amidst all Job's confusion and torment, the One who is in complete control, was in control of Job's life.
(Controlling countless stars and planets, as they travel in inconceivable velocities. Controlling them at unimaginable temperatures. Controlling them at wonderful orbits, and they are immense in size and matter. And with mathematical precision they are directed. All held in balance by God. - Quoted somewhat from John Phillips .)
Just as Job needed to know and be comforted by this, so do we. All our days are written in His book before any of them came to be.

 

[brinny]

i agree...if i was in Job's shoes (and in my own circumstances,) i need His assurance and comfort, desperately, and i mean desperately.....and i also keep in mind that God has promised that He will never ever give us more than we can bear, and as i think on it, i can't help but look at God's timing with Job and why He intervened at that very moment that He did with Job....

 

[Seeking Him]

i agree...if i was in Job's shoes (and in my own circumstances,) i need His assurance and comfort, desperately, and i mean desperately.....and i also keep in mind that God has promised that He will never ever give us more than we can bear, and as i think on it, i can't help but look at God's timing with Job and why He intervened at that very moment that He did with Job....

Maybe it was time that God felt to show his glory, as far as his greatness. He proved the devil to be wrong. Job showed forth God's glory by trusting in a God he knew was true, loving, wise, all powerful. Even though I'm sure he didn't always trust then, and his pain and anger were great.

As James said, we can look at the prophets as examples of suffering, and endurance. To our encouragement, and our being built up in our faith. In the end we'll see God to be tender and merciful to our situations. Thank you Lord. Gold to be revealed on the day of Jesus.