A forever hell

[setst777]

I think you're getting verses about forgiving an enemy confused with those about forgiving a brother.

"And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors." Matthew 6:12

"For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" Matthew 6:14-15

"And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.” Mark 11:25

Those Passages you quoted show that we are to forgive others, but in the context of all Scripture, we forgive others their sins after they repent, just as God forgives those who repent.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Luke 17:3 (WEB)
3 Be careful. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in the day, and seven times returns, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

Matthew 18:15-18 (WEB)
15 “If your brother sins against you, go, show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained back your brother.
16 But if he doesn’t listen, take one or two more with you, that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. [Deuteronomy 19:15]
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the assembly. If he refuses to hear the assembly also, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector. 18 Most certainly I tell you, whatever things you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever things you release on earth will have been released in heaven.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Just believe what Lord Jesus stated and taught in the Scriptures and you will not have to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Having an view or opinion or interpretation that differs from yours as to what Jesus taught, does not constitute blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[setst777]

It looks to me like maybe you're doing the "holier than thou" thing. And also confusing misquoting with misinterpreting. As you know, many verses have varying interpretations. Some will insist that their interpretation is the only correct interpretation, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

That is your opinion.

 

[setst777]

Your whole post is just a side-step. Again, you post this and that verse, but fail to address my points.

So tell me, where is Hell in the creation accounts, the Law God gave to Moses, His warnings, and on and on...?

God will judge righteously. We are not to accuse God of wrong for something you think He should have done.

 

[Ceallaigh]

That is your opinion.

So you are claiming to have the only correct interpretation of scripture? And furthermore that disagreeing with you is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

 

[setst777]

Having an view or opinion or interpretation that differs from yours as to what Jesus taught, does not constitute blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

I quoted the Scriptures to him and he called it an opinion, and then called me a false prophet for quoting the very Scriptures of God. That is what is the blasphemy.

 

[Der Alte]

I found this post of mine on another forum:
IF Hell were real...
It might be mentioned in the creation account. It isn't.
God might have warned Adam, Eve, Cain, and a lot of other people about their risk of ending up there. He didn't.
The Law that God gave to Moses might contain warnings about living in such a way that you would risk going there. It doesn't.
The Bible's many accounts of the deaths of many, many people might have specified whether they went to Hell. They don't.
The word "hell" might stand on its own, instead of being footnoted in the margin as "sheol," "hades," "gehenna" or "tartarus." But it is.
We might expect to find Satan/Lucifer declared as the Ruler of Hell. But he isn't.
We might expect Jesus to speak more of Hell than of anything else, but no, He didn't. I checked - He spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven far more, almost ten times more.
We might expect Paul the Apostle to have mentioned Hell, but he didn't.
We might have expected Hell to have a better foundation than dubious translation and the fictions of Dante, Milton and Baxter, but it doesn't.

Instead of discussing speculation i.e. what might have happened.
..Concerning only the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews three incontrovertible Jewish sources are quoted, below; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated hades and gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not rebut, refute, alter or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I. ​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

 

[setst777]

So you are claiming to have the only correct interpretation of scripture? And furthermore that disagreeing with you is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

I quote the Scriptures. My introduction of the Scripture is not important, but without an introduction as to why, or for what reason, I quote it there is nothing to follow. The Scriptures I provided give the context to those who quote Scripture without the full teaching.

 

[setst777]

It looks to me like maybe you're doing the "holier than thou" thing. And also confusing misquoting with misinterpreting. As you know, many verses have varying interpretations. Some will insist that their interpretation is the only correct interpretation, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

These are your opinions against someone because the truth of the Scriptures quoted hurt your pride. Pride is the downfall of many.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I quote the Scriptures. My introduction of the Scripture is not important, but without an introduction as to why, or for what reason, I quote it there is nothing to follow. The Scriptures I provided give the context to those who quote Scripture without the full teaching.

Your own words are important. There are others on CF who incorporate scripture verses into what they are saying, and then claim anyone disagreeing with what they themselves said and the context they are using, is going against the Word of God.

 

[setst777]

Your own words are important. There are others on CF who incorporate scripture verses into what they are saying, and then claim anyone disagreeing with what they themselves said and the context they are using, is going against the Word of God.

Yes, that is true. You are one of those people.

 

[Ceallaigh]

These are your opinions against someone because the truth of the Scriptures quoted hurt your pride. Pride is the downfall of many.

How could my pride be hurt when you weren't even talking to me at the time? You're acting quintessentially pompous and sanctimonious while ironically accusing someone else of pride.

 

[setst777]

How could my pride be hurt when you weren't even talking to me at the time? You're acting quintessentially pompous and sanctimonious while ironically accusing someone else of pride.

Are you not the one who is continually writing full messages to me attacking me personally with your opinions, rather than discussing anything about the topic?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yes, that is true. You are one of those people.

Nope, I have never accused anyone who saw things different from me as going against the Word of God or committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit or anything similar to that.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Are you not the one who is continually writing full messages to me attacking me personally with your opinions, rather than discussing anything about the topic?

Not that I'm aware of outside of this thread. And my attack as you put it was in regard to things you were saying to others that I considered to be out of line.

 

[setst777]

Nope, I have never accused anyone who saw things different from me as going against the Word of God or committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit or anything similar to that.

St. Steven called me a false prophet for quoting God's Word, that is why I said that. What is your excuse for your continue personal attacks against me?

When you quote a Scripture to back up your opinion, and if someone disagrees with you, your never concede, you just go onto another false statement, continually objecting, but never conceding. That is the accusation.

 

[setst777]

Not that I'm aware of outside of this thread. And my attack as you put it was in regard to things you were saying to others that I considered to be out of line.

My discussion with someone else on this board is none of your business, unless you want to discuss the topic of this board. You decided to go on personal rampage against me.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Those Passages you quoted show that we are to forgive others, but in the context of all Scripture, we forgive others their sins after they repent, just as God forgives those who repent.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 (WEB)
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Luke 17:3 (WEB)
3 Be careful. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. 4 If he sins against you seven times in the day, and seven times returns, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

Matthew 18:15-18 (WEB)
15 “If your brother sins against you, go, show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained back your brother.
16 But if he doesn’t listen, take one or two more with you, that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. [Deuteronomy 19:15]
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the assembly. If he refuses to hear the assembly also, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector. 18 Most certainly I tell you, whatever things you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever things you release on earth will have been released in heaven.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 is about repenting to God. Luke 17:3 and Matthew 18:15-18 are about forgiving your brother, not your enemy or someone in general.

 

[Ceallaigh]

My discussion with someone else on this board is none of your business, unless you want to discuss the topic of this board. You decided to go on personal rampage against me.

This is an open multi-person discussion not a private conversation. You have dashed out as much as you have received.

 

[Lazarus Short]

God will judge righteously. We are not to accuse God of wrong for something you think He should have done.

You are willfully misinterpreting what I said. I accused God of nothing, but I only pointed out what He did not do. You need to do some research of your own in the Bible instead of hinting that I am a wrongdoer.