A forever hell

[Der Alte]

All I know is someone on CF posted a list of quotes from early church fathers that was identical to one you posted. Sounds like you're a little younger than the senior pastor of the church I attend.

Quite some time ago one member asked if he could use my post I said yes. Freely I received freely I give.
Unlike some folks I am retired X3 this is more or less my job. Also it keeps me out of my wife's way.

 

[Der Alte]

,You tell me why. But I dislike the NIV and when there is a discrepancy it is always an error in the NIV. For a long time I hoped that people would stop reading NIV. Now they're doing this but many are replacing it with NLT, which is even worse.[/SIZE][/FONT]

PMFBI Since KJV was the Bible I heard as a child I used it until my seminary days, early '80s. I was serving in a Korean church while in seminary. I was Bu moksa associate pastor. I soon learned that the KJV is all but unintelligible for people whose language is not English. So for teaching/preaching I started using the NIV mainly because my first Greek professor Roger Omanson was on the original NIV translation committee. He would tell us the struggles they went through because some of the old timers did not want to change from the KJV wording.
Quote function went haywire.

 

[Ceallaigh]

These days my Bible is usually my phone. Bible-gateway ftw.

I will say reading the Psalms in KJV is a must.

 

[Saint Steven]

These days my Bible is usually my phone. Bible-gateway ftw.

I will say reading the Psalms in KJV is a must.

Same. Bible Gateway.
They used to have the NIV in the 1986 edition. (something like that) That was the paper Bible I read/studied cover to cover. I actually broke the binding and had to tape the cover back on.

 

[Saint Steven]

Good video on the subject from author Peter Enns.

In another installment of “Ask Pete,” we work through another excellent question: What’s the point of Christianity if it’s not saving people from Hell? And while we’re at it, what IS Hell, anyway?

 

[cfposter]

Christ didn't come to save people from Hell. He came to destroy the works of the Devil.

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ didn't come to save people from Hell. He came to destroy the works of the Devil.

Oh, the irony.

And frankly, Jesus came first. "Hell" wasn't invented until much later.
But the invention of "Hell" was most certainly a work of the Devil.
So... it wasn't one of "the works of the Devil", Jesus came to destroy. (since it didn't exist yet)

 

[Der Alte]

***

Oh, the irony.
And frankly, Jesus came first. "Hell" wasn't invented until much later.
But the invention of "Hell" was most certainly a work of the Devil.
So... it wasn't one of "the works of the Devil", Jesus came to destroy. (since it didn't exist yet)

Total nonsense
Concerning only the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews three incontrovertible Jewish sources are quoted, below; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated hades and gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not rebut, refute, alter or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia,
Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” does not sound like everyone will be saved no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

 

[cfposter]

Oh, the irony.

And frankly, Jesus came first. "Hell" wasn't invented until much later.
But the invention of "Hell" was most certainly a work of the Devil.
So... it wasn't one of "the works of the Devil", Jesus came to destroy. (since it didn't exist yet)

Yeah I was referencing the following:

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Many don't understand that the Devil is US. More specifically, the disobedient nature of man. This is why Jesus puts down sin in our own flesh by His Spirit in us.

This is why Adam was not deceived and Eve was. Because it was Adam that was the one deceiving her - but more specifically it was Adam's disobedient nature.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yeah I was referencing the following:

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Many don't understand that the Devil is US. More specifically, the disobedient nature of man. This is why Jesus puts down sin in our own flesh by His Spirit in us.

This is why Adam was not deceived and Eve was. Because it was Adam that was the one deceiving her - but more specifically it was Adam's disobedient nature.

Thanks. That's a curious view. (haven't heard that before) What do you do with the serpent in your view? Is that part of the story?

 

[cfposter]

Thanks. That's a curious view. (haven't heard that before) What do you do with the serpent in your view? Is that part of the story?

The Serpent is a reference to Adam's Disobedient spirit. Jesus called others a serpent when they displayed their disobedient nature. Remember, man doesn't tend to the things of the devil. The devils tends to the things of man. This is because the devil doesn't exist apart from man. No man, no devil.

Remember Eve was given to Adam. I believe that Adam used Eve to gain access to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That was the best excuse he could come up with since God gave Eve to Adam as a Helpmeet. So it is not surprising that Adam throws Eve under the bus as soon as they get caught.

 

[cfposter]

Let's also not forget that Adam was WITH Eve when the she took of the forbidden fruit. So if Adam is not also the serpent then he too would have been deceived. The phrase "with her" is so overlooked in your Bible, in fact the traditional narrative has no use for the phrase to be in the verse:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

But that phrase is in the verse and we should understand why. My view is it is because Adam is the one deceiving her, but again to separate this, Adam's Disobedient nature is the one deceiving her.

1Ti_2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[cfposter]

Consider this verse where Jesus rebukes Peter. Peter did have the Spirit of Disobedience in Him.

Mat_16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[Saint Steven]

Let's also not forget that Adam was WITH Eve when the she took of the forbidden fruit. So if Adam is not also the serpent then he too would have been deceived. The phrase "with her" is so overlooked in your Bible, in fact the traditional narrative has no use for the phrase to be in the verse:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

But that phrase is in the verse and we should understand why. My view is it is because Adam is the one deceiving her, but again to separate this, Adam's Disobedient nature is the one deceiving her.

1Ti_2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

You have some interesting views on this that I have not heard before.

I did notice that Eve was adding something to the command of God that didn't appear prior, about not touching the fruit. Something Adam may have added to the command from God.

I also like the unanswered question God asks Adam in chapter three. "Who told you that you were naked?" Who indeed?

 

[cfposter]

Another thing to remember is that it doesn't say that Adam's seed is cursed. It says that the Serpent seed is cursed. But again this is a reference to Adam's seed but showing that it is based on his Disobedient nature. And we know that all those born of Adam are cursed. And that verdict was right there in Genesis:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Now, where do you ever find that Adam's seed is cursed anywhere else? No where, but yet Jesus had to be born of a Woman - (her seed - virgin Mary) to not be under the curse for the redeemer couldn't be one who also needs a redeemer. This should tell you that the Serpent is ALSO ADAM.

 

[cfposter]

This is why when it says that Jesus came to destroy the work of the Devil, this is talking about YOUR works and My works. Jesus is how to destroy OUR works. We ARE the Devil so long as we let a disobedient nature rule over us.

So when I see that Christ came to destroy my works it is a BIG UTOH!

I can't blame some guy with a pitchfork. I have to look in the mirror and say He is coming for me. But that is good because He destroys our works by Him putting down sin in our own flesh.

 

[Der Alte]

This is why when it says that Jesus came to destroy the work of the Devil, this is talking about YOUR works and My works. Jesus is how to destroy OUR works. We ARE the Devil so long as we let a disobedient nature rule over us.
So when I see that Christ came to destroy my works it is a BIG UTOH!
I can't blame some guy with a pitchfork. I have to look in the mirror and say He is coming for me. But that is good because He destroys our works by Him putting down sin in our own flesh.

How does this passage fit in your theory?

Matthew 4:1-11
1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3 The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 "If you are the Son of God," he [the devil] said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"
7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9 "All this I will give you," he [the devil] said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.​

 

[Believer000]

Halo there,

not very long time ago we had a discussion in our chalcedonian orthodox forum with a catholic and our orthodox priest if there is a for ever hell. Well the catholic could not name any text passeges or so but he had good reason to say hell can never be for ever. I "miss the times" so to say, do not know how to say it otherwise, when people had neither bible nor church and had themselves direct contact to God. They were better in that times. How can you think God will punish forever? This is impossible. It is so that God leads the church to say such things because we people need the anxiety to be saved! This is nothinig more than church politics. There will never be a for ever hell but a very long hell. This is absolutely enough to be afraid. enough to be saved.

God will never make someone suffer without reason and never for ever. I know this because I wanted to jump from 14th floor more than 10 years ago and God started talking to me. Therefore I also know about the frequency and possibility of reincaranation, ment that a soul can be born again(in another body on earth)! This does not change that Jesus came to earth. I wish all a good experience this year with Pascha/Easter. I would like to know your sincere opinions. Leave politics aside. Do you really think God will "kill" you for ever by never ever again delivering you from hell? You should always think the best of God, you know and use your reason also. Your reason existed before the bible. And I heard this passage is translated wrongly, it could mean for ever and it could mean one aeon/one million years or so.

I believe God knows what He's doing, and He will do everything according to His will.

 

[Saint Steven]

I believe God knows what He's doing, and He will do everything according to His will.

That might seem to work out well for you. But what about the vast majority that you would have to conclude were predestined to destruction? Does that seem like a reasonable plan for God to make for his creation? Or is there something wrong with this picture?

Most of us were raised to not question such things. But they are certainly questionable.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[Der Alte]

* * *

That might seem to work out well for you. But what about the vast majority that you would have to conclude were predestined to destruction? Does that seem like a reasonable plan for God to make for his creation? Or is there something wrong with this picture?

Most of us were raised to not question such things. But they are certainly questionable. Did Jesus die to save us from God?

The belief that God predestines some part of mankind to eternal life and another part of mankind to eternal punishment contradicts the very words of Jesus and Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13

Matthew 11:28
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​