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dougangel

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See my post right above this one. Notice also that dougangel, also, has no idea what the biblical word "earth" means. He just wasted all that time citing sources without even know the simple definition of erets, given by God himself.

This is the norm for Bible skeptics. They're always learning, never understanding.
My post wasn't about that.

It's about what historians say the thinking of flat earth was in the known world. My point was there was a time when flat earth was the common belief in the known world.

The Bible shows the way to go to heaven, not the way the heavens go. Galileo Galilei

O God, I am thinking Thy thoughts after Thee. -Johannes Kepler, Astronomy

“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”

- Isaac Newton

(“General Scholium,” in Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, Isaac Newton. 1687)

I'm going to go with what these men say not you
 
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Anguspure

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Does the bible teach a flat earth? After studying this topic I've personally come to the conclusion that yes , the bible does teach a flat, enclosed, geocentric earth. Instead of me posting all the bible verses pro-flat earth, I would like to hear the verses against the flat earth. Or even evidence outside from the bible.
Evidence outside the Bible: When we travel a direction across the surface of the earth, 24 900 odd miles (where a mile is defined as 1 minute of arc from the centre of the earth measured at the equator) later we always end up in the same place again. Navigation along great circle routes such as this is successfully carried out by use of spherical geometry where 2 dimensional (flat earth) navigation is no longer of much use for distances of more than a thousand miles or so.


Evidence from the Bible: He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,(the Hebrew word translated circle has the meaning of a sphere)(Isaiah 40:22)He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.(Job 26:7)
 
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Steve Petersen

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If the Earth is flat, someone must be living near the edge. You would think they would notice that and take pictures, that ships would fall off, that planes would have no place to land eventually.

If the earth is flat, how come planes can fly the Great Circle flight plan and end up at the correct place?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-circle_distance
 
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shadowhunter

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If the Earth is flat, someone must be living near the edge. You would think they would notice that and take pictures, that ships would fall off, that planes would have no place to land eventually.

If the earth is flat, how come planes can fly the Great Circle flight plan and end up at the correct place?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-circle_distance
Very good. And some of us actually have used celestial navigation. The math is all based on a sphere, not a flat plate.
 
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shadowhunter

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Does the bible teach a flat earth? After studying this topic I've personally come to the conclusion that yes , the bible does teach a flat, enclosed, geocentric earth. Instead of me posting all the bible verses pro-flat earth, I would like to hear the verses against the flat earth. Or even evidence outside from the bible.

Let's consider if Einstein teaches that the earth is flat.
1. In Einstein's universe there is no gravity, only warped 4-dimensional space-time.
2. A straight line is defined as the path of an object when not acted upon by outside forces.
3. The moon has an orbit, and since there is no gravity, nor other outside forces, it's orbit is a straight line.
4. The orbit of the moon is parallel to an arc on earth, therefore the arc on earth is a straight line.
5. Since the arc on earth is a straight line, the earth must be flat.

Now get with the program of modern science... Einstein implies that the earth is flat.

;)

Oh by the way. In his theory, since everything is relative, one may declare any point in the universe to be the center, and that declaration is as good as any other declaration. Therefore, Einstein says it is quite proper to declare the earth as the center of the universe.

;) have fun.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Let's consider if Einstein teaches that the earth is flat.
1. In Einstein's universe there is no gravity, only warped 4-dimensional space-time.
2. A straight line is defined as the path of an object when not acted upon by outside forces.
3. The moon has an orbit, and since there is no gravity, nor other outside forces, it's orbit is a straight line.
4. The orbit of the moon is parallel to an arc on earth, therefore the arc on earth is a straight line.
5. Since the arc on earth is a straight line, the earth must be flat.

Now get with the program of modern science... Einstein implies that the earth is flat.

;)

Oh by the way. In his theory, since everything is relative, one may declare any point in the universe to be the center, and that declaration is as good as any other declaration. Therefore, Einstein says it is quite proper to declare the earth as the center of the universe.

;) have fun.

Please read relativity theory, for the above is complete nonsense. All that happens therein is that the constants of Newtonian Physics gets replaced by variables. The above is not applicable.
 
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Calminian

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My post wasn't about that.

It's about what historians say the thinking of flat earth was in the known world. My point was there was a time when flat earth was the common belief in the known world.

The Bible shows the way to go to heaven, not the way the heavens go. Galileo Galilei

O God, I am thinking Thy thoughts after Thee. -Johannes Kepler, Astronomy

“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”

- Isaac Newton

(“General Scholium,” in Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy, Isaac Newton. 1687)

I'm going to go with what these men say not you

Galileo was a biblical creationist btw. Creationism is not about how the heavens go, but how they began. Galileo's issue was about the structure of the universe, not the origins of it. He never denied the biblical account of origins as you are.

That said, you still missed the point. The Bible has never been in agreement with these ancient men you are quoting. That's the point. Scripture never repeats manmade ideas about geocentrism and flat-earthism. If you'd study the text and study these words in question you'd know this.
 
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PapaZoom

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A fat earth? So what if the earth is fat!? My wife is a bit fat but I still love her. At my age I've gotten a bit fat too. And with the earth millions of years old, one would expect it to get a little pudgy. Some say the earth is fat and others say she's not (yes, the earth is a female-that's why things can grow because the earth births them)

Speaking of births, most females that give birth (like our Mother Earth has) gain weight. So with all the birthing she's done it's no wonder she's fat.

Yes. I believe in a fat earth. Rotund she is. And it's nothing to be ashamed of. Give her a break. :oldthumbsup:
 
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keltoi

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Does the bible teach a flat earth? After studying this topic I've personally come to the conclusion that yes , the bible does teach a flat, enclosed, geocentric earth. Instead of me posting all the bible verses pro-flat earth, I would like to hear the verses against the flat earth. Or even evidence outside from the bible.
I would like to see what particular verses in the Bible you think teaches that the Earth is flat. Instead of interpreting things that do not require interpreting interpret things that actually work towards a greater understanding of God.
 
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prodromos

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Does the bible teach a flat earth? After studying this topic I've personally come to the conclusion that yes , the bible does teach a flat, enclosed, geocentric earth. Instead of me posting all the bible verses pro-flat earth, I would like to hear the verses against the flat earth. Or even evidence outside from the bible.
GPS navigation.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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Let's consider if Einstein teaches that the earth is flat.
1. In Einstein's universe there is no gravity, only warped 4-dimensional space-time.
2. A straight line is defined as the path of an object when not acted upon by outside forces.
3. The moon has an orbit, and since there is no gravity, nor other outside forces, it's orbit is a straight line.
4. The orbit of the moon is parallel to an arc on earth, therefore the arc on earth is a straight line.
5. Since the arc on earth is a straight line, the earth must be flat.

Now get with the program of modern science... Einstein implies that the earth is flat.

;)

Oh by the way. In his theory, since everything is relative, one may declare any point in the universe to be the center, and that declaration is as good as any other declaration. Therefore, Einstein says it is quite proper to declare the earth as the center of the universe.

;) have fun.

:doh:

You completely misunderstood Einstein's Theory of Relativity. (sigh) Instead of talking about stuff you have no idea about, you should study it more adequately. It is evident that there are many things you do not understand, since your argument contains a number of fallacies.

I will address them one by one:
  1. No, it is not true that, in Einstein's Universe, there is no gravity. Indeed, yes, there is gravity, and Einstein never said the opposite. What happens is that he sort of redefines our idea of gravity — that which Newton had invented —, and makes us understand it better and more closely to reality by creating this four-dimensional space-time you have mentioned. But he never denies gravity. He just explains how it works in a different way. So, your faulty premise (key to everything else) is that Einstein says that gravity does not exist.
  2. That is correct.
  3. Now, you use your faulty premise to reach a faulty conclusion. Again, gravity exists. The Moon is acted upon by an external force: the Earth's gravity. Therefore, it does not orbit in a straight line.
  4. Again, the orbit of the Moon is circular, along the Earth's circular arc.
  5. The arc is circular. Therefore, the Earth is round.
So, Einstein actually implies that the Earth is (obviously) round. Your misunderstanding of Einstein's notion of gravity is what led you down this erroneous thinking.

As for the declaration of the Earth as the centre of the Universe, yes, you are correct that such a statement can be made. However, since all plantes orbit around the Sun, it is much easier to see the Sun as the centre of the Solar System; seeing the Earth as the centre of the Solar System makes things very complicated, since planets will be seen approaching and going away from the Earth in weird and difficultly predictable patterns.

Think of it this way: imagine you are driving in a roundabout with multiple lanes, and many other cars are there too, occupying different lanes; and, in each lane, cars are travelling at different speeds. Now, which is easier: to fix your eyes on the roundabout and see all cars moving around it, or to fix your eyes on your own car? You can fix your eyes on your own car, but you will see all other cars going close to you and away from you in rather unpredictable patterns, and it is very difficulty for you to get the big picture of everything that is going on in the roundabout. To get the big picture, it is preferable to fix your eyes in the centre of the roundabout; that way, you will see every car travelling around it in a much easier way to understand. In fact, so easy does it become if you do it, that anyone in a helicopter flying above the roundabout will immediately look at it and understand that they can get the big picture by staring at its centre and watch the vehicles ‘orbit’ around it, each lane at its own speed. And yet, can they choose to fix their eyes on your car? Yes, they can. But why would they?
 
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kmrichard7

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If you can travel to antartica to reach the end, what about the other sides? If we are flat we should have more than Antaritca to see the edge from.
I dont question the earths roundness over it being flat. Its round. Makes sense. The Bible was written by man describing in his view, not Gods. He had no way of knowing the earth was round or flat unless he straight up asked God
 
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Ian16

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Does the bible teach a flat earth? After studying this topic I've personally come to the conclusion that yes , the bible does teach a flat, enclosed, geocentric earth. Instead of me posting all the bible verses pro-flat earth, I would like to hear the verses against the flat earth. Or even evidence outside from the bible.

Thanks for your post: Rev 7v1 states: 'After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.'
However we have to understand this to be just a figure of speech because the bible teaches the earth is round in Isaiah 40v22: 'He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers.'
http://www.iansideas.com
 
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2404

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Does the bible teach a flat earth? After studying this topic I've personally come to the conclusion that yes , the bible does teach a flat, enclosed, geocentric earth. Instead of me posting all the bible verses pro-flat earth, I would like to hear the verses against the flat earth. Or even evidence outside from the bible.
We speak of what we know in our three dimensional perception.
Perhaps there are other perspectives.
 
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The Portuguese Baptist

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So where did German Guy go? Has he abandoned his own thread? These skeptics are such cowards.

Please do not be so quick to accuse him like that. In post #32 (http://www.christianforums.com/threads/a-flat-earth.7937866/page-2#post-69407509), he said that he has little time available to answer us. I understand. Sometimes, even I may have to retreat from CF for a week or even more. Let us wait. There is no deadline for online discussions. He may very well let this thread die, restart it two years from now, and his argument will remain as valid as it would be today.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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Isaiah 40:22 describes the earth as a circle. But the Holy Bible was not written as a science book.

Here's what it says in the Catechism of the Catholic Church about the interpretation of Sacred Scripture:
III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75

110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78

112 1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79

The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80​

113
2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81).

114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.

The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84

2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85

3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87​

119
"It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgment. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88
But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89

(More)
 
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AmericanChristian91

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Thanks for your post: Rev 7v1 states: 'After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.'
However we have to understand this to be just a figure of speech because the bible teaches the earth is round in Isaiah 40v22: 'He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers.'
http://www.iansideas.com
I thought the "circle of the earth" is not referring to our spherical world, but to a flat circle disk shaped world.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Isaiah 40:22New International Version (NIV)
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Much is made of Isaiah 40:42 where it is asserted that Isaiah told us all that the earth is a sphere. But is this what was really meant by the word the translator's usually present to us as "circle"?

The Hebrew word in Strong's transliteration is "chug". Here are all the verses in which the Hebrew word "chug" appears, included one use of "chug" as a verb:

Isa 40:22
It is He who sits above the [chug] of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
NKJV

Job 22:14
4 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the [chug] of heaven.
KJV

Prov 8:27-29
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a [chug] upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:


Job 26:10-11
He hath [chugged] the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

There are some things we can notice about these verses. What is the common meaning between these verses? I submit that it is quite clear the word does not means "sphere". It is also clear the word always is used in the context of the big picture of the earth and even more.

The talmudic writers leave no doubt that their literalistic interpretation of the firmament of Genesis One was simply that of the great bowl of the sky, placed as a dome over the flat earth. You may research this for yourself by searching for "talmud" and "firmament" over the internet; here is a good link you might find that way.

http://www.daatemet.org.il/pamphlets/en_pamphlet4.html

It is quite plain that the word "chug", then, can easily be understood as a reference to the Firmament; it can easily be considered as an alternate word for the same idea. Proverbs 8:27 almost cries out to interpret the word [chug] in that way.

It is also quite plain that this word is no proof that the earth itself is shown by Isaiah to be a sphere.
 
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