A false assumption

[Lilly of the Valley]

It is a false assumption that if you greatly disagree or despise/dislike strongly an action you hate the person performing it. Now, some people really do hate the actual people, but not all, actually the vast majority don’t hate people that do actions that they strongly dislike and/or disagree with. Putting all into the same boat is inaccurate and false.

Now, for those that may disagree with this: For actions that you strongly disagree with and/or dislike/despise, do you hate people that actually do that action? If so, is that in each and every instance all the time? I ask that you honestly think about this and answer this question(s) if you disagree.

 

[Helo]

If this is about the "I hate the sin, not the sinner" line, I dont buy it.

Actions are motivated by a person's will. People wont usually do what they dont want to do unless they have some form of coercion.

If you hate a person's actions, you are hating a part of them. Because its a part of them that drives that action.

Also, according to Christian though, sin is an inherant part of human nature. So if you hate one person's sin, you are hating something thats part of thier nature and themselves in turn

 

[Spherical Time]

The people that have to use the line "Love the sinner, hate the sin," are not people that I do not feel love from. I feel love from Christians often, but when I do, it usually doesn't involve saying hateful things about any facet of me.

But, I think that it's a lot easier to have emotions about people rather than ideas. I don't really "hate" Christianity. I dislike it, but I don't judge others based on it. If I began to judge people on it, I think that I'd be having trouble separating out people from an idea.

 

[spinto]

It is a false assumption that if you greatly disagree or despise/dislike strongly an action you hate the person performing it. Now, some people really do hate the actual people, but not all, actually the vast majority don’t hate people that do actions that they strongly dislike and/or disagree with. Putting all into the same boat is inaccurate and false.

Now, for those that may disagree with this: For actions that you strongly disagree with and/or dislike/despise, do you hate people that actually do that action? If so, is that in each and every instance all the time? I ask that you honestly think about this and answer this question(s) if you disagree.

Well it is not those that disagree with me that I think are hateful. Differing opinons are differing opinons...It's a fact of life. It is those that want to dominate my life via legislature to dictate my freedoms that I think are hateful. And why is that? Because the result of such domination is cause for much suffering of innocent people just trying to live. And to continue to strive for such control, in my opinon, is hateful.

 

[crazyfingers]

It is a false assumption that if you greatly disagree or despise/dislike strongly an action you hate the person performing it. Now, some people really do hate the actual people, but not all, actually the vast majority don’t hate people that do actions that they strongly dislike and/or disagree with. Putting all into the same boat is inaccurate and false.

Now, for those that may disagree with this: For actions that you strongly disagree with and/or dislike/despise, do you hate people that actually do that action? If so, is that in each and every instance all the time? I ask that you honestly think about this and answer this question(s) if you disagree.

The key point that you have not mentioned is whether the act harms others.

Religious conservatives appear to hate acts that cause no harm to others. Why they hate such acts is strange to me. But they appear to regard as morally wrong and hate actions that they believe the bible disapproves of even when no one is harmed and even when the person doing the act has the perfect right to do it.

I on the other hand do not regard something as morally wrong unless someone is harmed against his/her will. So there are actions that I may regard as dumb but not immoral.

Now lets take the example of a religious conservative who is against homosexuality. I would not regard that as immoral until that religious conservative actively attempted to harm homosexuals by attempting to prohibit their homosexual behavior or restrict their civil rights, including civil marriage rights.

When it comes to actions that harm others, I believe that it is correct to pass moral judgment upon those who do harm others. I would not say that I hate those people but I would say that I regard them as bad people to varying degrees.

 

[crazyfingers]

Well it is not those that disagree with me that I think are hateful. Differing opinons are differing opinons...It's a fact of life. It is those that want to dominate my life via legislature to dictate my freedoms that I think are hateful. And why is that? Because the result of such domination is cause for much suffering of innocent people just trying to live. And to continue to strive for such control, in my opinon, is hateful.

Yup. It's not the beliefs that they have but the actions that they take that harm others.

 

[fillerbunny]

Well it is not those that disagree with me that I think are hateful. Differing opinons are differing opinons...It's a fact of life. It is those that want to dominate my life via legislature to dictate my freedoms that I think are hateful. And why is that? Because the result of such domination is cause for much suffering of innocent people just trying to live. And to continue to strive for such control, in my opinon, is hateful.

This sums up my feelings on the matter perfectly.

 

[MoonlessNight]

If this is about the "I hate the sin, not the sinner" line, I dont buy it.

Actions are motivated by a person's will. People wont usually do what they dont want to do unless they have some form of coercion.

If you hate a person's actions, you are hating a part of them. Because its a part of them that drives that action.

Also, according to Christian though, sin is an inherant part of human nature. So if you hate one person's sin, you are hating something thats part of thier nature and themselves in turn

All teachers hate children because they don't want them to be ignorant.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

If this is about the "I hate the sin, not the sinner" line, I dont buy it.

Actions are motivated by a person's will. People wont usually do what they dont want to do unless they have some form of coercion.

If you hate a person's actions, you are hating a part of them. Because its a part of them that drives that action.

Also, according to Christian though, sin is an inherant part of human nature. So if you hate one person's sin, you are hating something thats part of thier nature and themselves in turn

Sin nature is the tendency to sin, not sin itself. Sin is a choice and actions you do. A person isn't sin itself. God loves us and yet hates sin......so hating an action doesn't mean you hate the person. Please answer the questions I asked.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

The people that have to use the line "Love the sinner, hate the sin," are not people that I do not feel love from. I feel love from Christians often, but when I do, it usually doesn't involve saying hateful things about any facet of me.

But, I think that it's a lot easier to have emotions about people rather than ideas. I don't really "hate" Christianity. I dislike it, but I don't judge others based on it. If I began to judge people on it, I think that I'd be having trouble separating out people from an idea.

See that's the thing...hating/disliking an action doesn't mean it's the actual person. You can end up seeing an action itself seperate from the person themself and thus not hate the person, but merely their choices.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

The key point that you have not mentioned is whether the act harms others.

Religious conservatives appear to hate acts that cause no harm to others. Why they hate such acts is strange to me. But they appear to regard as morally wrong and hate actions that they believe the bible disapproves of even when no one is harmed and even when the person doing the act has the perfect right to do it.

I on the other hand do not regard something as morally wrong unless someone is harmed against his/her will. So there are actions that I may regard as dumb but not immoral.

Now lets take the example of a religious conservative who is against homosexuality. I would not regard that as immoral until that religious conservative actively attempted to harm homosexuals by attempting to prohibit their homosexual behavior or restrict their civil rights, including civil marriage rights.

When it comes to actions that harm others, I believe that it is correct to pass moral judgment upon those who do harm others. I would not say that I hate those people but I would say that I regard them as bad people to varying degrees.

Well, for the first paragraph, the reason is it ends up in the end harming the person themself w/ the eternal consequence, plus it can harm others in the way that it can influence them to do the same and thus lead to their eternal/spiritual harm. In that sense, actions that may not be physically harmful, are spiritually.

Okay.

 

[Spherical Time]

See that's the thing...hating/disliking an action doesn't mean it's the actual person. You can end up seeing an action itself seperate from the person themself and thus not hate the person, but merely their choices.

I disagree, which I why I drew a line between dislike and hate.

I think with hate you can't make that distinction between the action and the person. I've never seen someone successfully do it.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I disagree, which I why I drew a line between dislike and hate.

I think with hate you can't make that distinction between the action and the person. I've never seen someone successfully do it.

Well, the Lord has. If someone does something that you hate, do you then hate them?

Here's an example: A parent has a kid and their kid does drugs. The parent hates drugs and doesn't want their kid having anything to do w/ it. Does the parent thus hate the child due to hating drugs? No.

 

[crazyfingers]

Well, for the first paragraph, the reason is it ends up in the end harming the person themself w/ the eternal consequence, plus it can harm others in the way that it can influence them to do the same and thus lead to their eternal/spiritual harm. In that sense, actions that may not be physically harmful, are spiritually.

Okay.

I believe that to be a rationalization with a heavy dose of mystical fu-fu-dust thown in.

It's utterly unconvincing.

It's an excuse to cover for the desire to impose oneself onto others.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I believe that to be a rationalization with a heavy dose of mystical fu-fu-dust thown in.

It's utterly unconvincing.

It's an excuse to cover for the desire to impose oneself onto others.

I disagree. The fact is, and you don't have to believe this, but stuff has spiritual consequences. I think trying to tell people of them and thus help them in the end is way better than letting them just go on in ignorance and thus face the horrid consequences that could be avoided.

 

[Spherical Time]

Well, the Lord has. If someone does something that you hate, do you then hate them?

On the contrary, I see examples of it often. It might not be hate toward the person, but it's almost certainly dislike, except under highly unusual circumstances.

I think there is a limit for how much you can dislike someone before your view of their actions begins to color your opinion of them.

Here's an example: A parent has a kid and their kid does drugs. The parent hates drugs and doesn't want their kid having anything to do w/ it. Does the parent thus hate the child due to hating drugs? No.

But I've seen families broken up by this. I've seen parents throw their children out on the street for drug use, or premarital sex, or even the hatred of their child's adopted religion.

If the parents dislike drugs, maybe they can separate out their feelings about his actions from their feelings about their child.

However, if the parents hate drugs, I think that their feelings for the action colors their feeling of the person, despite their relation.

For example, one of my old bosses was incompetant (which is something that I hate). I didn't know him that well, but it certainly colored my feelings toward him, and I like almost everyone.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

On the contrary, I see examples of it often. It might not be hate toward the person, but it's almost certainly dislike, except under highly unusual circumstances.

I think there is a limit for how much you can dislike someone before your view of their actions begins to color your opinion of them.

But I've seen families broken up by this. I've seen parents throw their children out on the street for drug use, or premarital sex, or even the hatred of their child's adopted religion.

If the parents dislike drugs, maybe they can separate out their feelings about his actions from their feelings about their child.

However, if the parents hate drugs, I think that their feelings for the action colors their feeling of the person, despite their relation.

For example, one of my old bosses was incompetant (which is something that I hate). I didn't know him that well, but it certainly colored my feelings toward him, and I like almost everyone.

Okay, I agree that how you feel about the actions can influence how you feel about the person, but saying that, that always happens and is impossible not to happen is in accurate. It is possible and does happen that people hate the actions and not the person. Obviously, not all, but there are those that do.

 

[loriersea]

I'm sure there are people out there who believe that homosexuality is a sin but who are kind, loving people toward homosexuals. However, I would bet you about a million bucks that none of them have ever needed to utter the "love the sinner, hate the sin" line. I would bet they aren't involved in movements to deny equal rights to gay and lesbian citizens. And I would bet that they do not spend any more time telling gay and lesbian people that they are sinful than they spend telling gossipers they are sinful, greedy people they are sinful, the gluttonous they are sinful, the lustful they are sinful, the envious they are sinful, or people who have divorced for reasons other than adultery that they are sinful. And, given that I don't know anyone who spends time telling gossipers, greedy people, the gluttonous, the lustful, the envious, or people divorced for reasons other than adultery that they are sinful, these people would not spend time telling gay and lesbian people that they are sinful, either.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I'm sure there are people out there who believe that homosexuality is a sin but who are kind, loving people toward homosexuals. However, I would bet you about a million bucks that none of them have ever needed to utter the "love the sinner, hate the sin" line. I would bet they aren't involved in movements to deny equal rights to gay and lesbian citizens. And I would bet that they do not spend any more time telling gay and lesbian people that they are sinful than they spend telling gossipers they are sinful, greedy people they are sinful, the gluttonous they are sinful, the lustful they are sinful, the envious they are sinful, or people who have divorced for reasons other than adultery that they are sinful. And, given that I don't know anyone who spends time telling gossipers, greedy people, the gluttonous, the lustful, the envious, or people divorced for reasons other than adultery that they are sinful, these people would not spend time telling gay and lesbian people that they are sinful, either.

You're probably right, however, I think christians should point out when someone is in error in a loving way at appropriate times, sadly not all do.

 

[Spherical Time]

Okay, I agree that how you feel about the actions can influence how you feel about the person, but saying that, that always happens and is impossible not to happen is in accurate. It is possible and does happen that people hate the actions and not the person. Obviously, not all, but there are those that do.

Like I said, I've never seen it.

Case in point, actually.