A false assumption

[Lilly of the Valley]

Do you honestly believe that gay and lesbian people are treated by conservative Christians and conservative Christian churches the same way other sinners are treated? Are they really, honestly treated the same as those who have been divorced for non-biblically sanctioned reasons? Are they really, honestly treated the same as a straight couple who has sex outside of marriage? Are they really, honestly treated the same as someone who is a chronic gossip, someone who is greedy, someone who is envious, someone who is gluttonous?

If you truly, honestly believe that they are treated the same, then I guess that's that. But, if you can see that there are enormous differences in how they are treated, you need to ask yourself why.

I don't deny that some do, but saying ALL and putting it across the board on all is incorrect.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Since this is the basis of the whole "Hate the sin, love the sinner" catchphrase, I'll just point out the holes in this.

1. You can't prove any of it. I could go around burning churches and claim it was save Christians from their false religion so that they could worship the true God who will torment them for eternity if they die not worshiping him.

So what makes my claim any different than yours?

2. It's ineffective. If saving souls from a bad spiritual afterlife is your goal, then wouldn't it be far more effective to simply kill the children of nonbelievers before they can nonbelieve? There's a billion Muslims in the Mid East having many kids per family since they have no condoms over there. How many of them will grow up to be Christian in countries where they kill you for converting?

If we were to send a few thousand nukes over there, and turn that entire place into glass, we would save billions upon billions of furture unbeleivers from Hell. Do the same to Africa, China and India for maximized saving.

But instead, you target a few million gays, with little effect. Small potatoes. So if you're goal is saving souls, then how can I take you seriously?

It's like a guy who got shot in the head is walking up to you asking for help, and you're more worried that he's walking around funny and he might fall and hurt himself, completely ignoring the bullet in his head.

3. The ends don't justify the means. Making the lives of gays more difficult in this life so that they may change their ways and be happy in the afterlife, which you can't even prove, is not justified.

I understand pushing someone out the way of a moving car, but my understanding doesn't extend to pushing someone out of the way of an non-comporeal, invisible car that only you can see. That's when I go tell you to see a doctor.

Now when somebody calls a gay an abomination, a pervert, a deviant, a disordered godless atheistic anti-family degenerate, and support policies that only make life more difficult for gays, then I will call them a bigot, I will call them a peice of human trash, I will call them a supersticious moron and I will be right, because Jesus told us to look people's fruits, and by them you will them.

See, this is being applied to all of one group, conservatives and not all are like that. That is where my issue lies. I think calling folks names and showing hate and such is wrong, but simply not agreeing and disliking the action isn't anywhere near hate and though people do hate the actual person, saying ALL that hate the action hate the actual person is false because some of us can actually seperate an action, such as lying, adultery, etc....from the person and see that the person is still a person that God loves a lot.

 

[loriersea]

I think calling folks names and showing hate and such is wrong, but simply not agreeing and disliking the action isn't anywhere near hate and though people do hate the actual person, saying ALL that hate the action hate the actual person is false because some of us can actually seperate an action, such as lying, adultery, etc....from the person and see that the person is still a person that God loves a lot.

I agree with that distinction. But, I also wonder about the use of "hate" to describe people's reaction to the action of homosexuality. Honestly, I don't believe that most Christians who say they hate the sin of homosexuality also hate the sins of adultery, envy, greed, heterosexual lust, and gluttony in the same way. I think that what they are really feeling is more disgust than hate, that there is a repulsion that some people feel for homosexuality that they don't feel regarding heterosexual sins or other non-sexual sins. And it is that repulsion and disgust they are acting on, not on any sort of innate hatred of all sin.

And that's normal. As people, we are going to find certain behaviors more upsetting than others. Personally, I have a very visceral reaction to people striking their children. I really feel repulsed when I see it happen. I have to consciously remind myself that, while I think hitting children is wrong and I would prefer other people didn't do it (and I will not keep my opinion that hitting children is wrong silent if asked, but I also take seriously the fact that most people who use physical punishment do have the best interests of their children in mind and don't feel they are doing something wrong), and, more importantly, that there is no real evidence that "normal" spanking harms children, and I'm not a perfect parent, either. I do things wrong with my own son. I let him watch more Blue's Clues DVDs than I should, I get impatient with him far more than I should, and I have a tendency to yell when angry, which I shouldn't do. While those things don't repulse me the way that physical punishment does, I know intellectually that they are no less wrong. And so I have to consciously moderate my own feelings about these things, so that I don't become self-righteous in my view of myself as a parent, because when it comes right down to it, people who spank their kids aren't perfect parents, I'm not a perfect parent, but we are all, in general, doing the best we can to love our kids and raise them right.

But it's very easy for me to get all morally outraged over spanking because I find the idea of a person hitting their child very viscerally upsetting, and it really repulses me. It upsets and repulses me more than my own bad parenting practices repulse me. So, it's easy for me to go on and on about how spanking kids is wrong and nobody should do it, but it's much harder for me to work up the outrage over my own impatience or my tendency to yell, because my own behavior does not repulse or upset me in that way. But on an intellectual level I can see that my bad parenting habits are no better than the bad parenting habits of others.

My point is that I hate spanking, I really do. I hate it because it upsets me at a really gut level. Seeing someone strike their child physically sickens me, so I hate it. But, while I think it is wrong for parents to yell at their child, it doesn't affect me in quite that way. I don't hate it in the same way. Reasonably, though, I can see that neither action is right, both are about equally negative for the child, and I have no rational reason to hate spanking while finding yelling something that parents should work harder not to do. And I think many people have similar feelings about homosexuality, where it's a sin they really hate because it repulses or disgusts them at a very deep level, whereas they tend to view other sins as flaws that people need to work harder on. While there is nothing wrong with feeling that way, in the end it has to be realized that homosexuality is no more or less bad than heterosexual sin, for those who take the view that homosexuality is inherently sinful.

 

[loriersea]

Lilly, just to add, thinking about this in terms of spanking is actually quite helpful for me to understand your position. Because, as I said, I think spanking is wrong and sinful. And, it really bothers me that some churches tell their members that spanking is okay, and even encourage it, and it boggles my mind how anyone could consider themselves a Christian and do that. I imagine that that is how people who think homosexuality is sinful feel about churches that believe homosexuality is okay, and I absolutely can understand that and have sympathy for that position.

And, I can also better understand the concept of "love the sinner, hate the sin," because while I do hate spanking, I have friends who spank their kids, and I still love them. I don't like the way they discipline their children and believe it's wrong, but I do not think they are bad people, in any way. I think they are, for the most part, kind, loving parents who want to do what is best for their kids but have been misled. If they asked my advice on parenting, I'd tell them, and I hope that my child will be an example of how a child can not be spanked but still be a good person, but for the most part it is an issue I remain silent on. In general, though, it is difficult for me to be as close to parents who spank their kids as I can be with parents who share my basic beliefs about discipline, just as I imagine it would be difficult for someone who believes being gay is a sin to be as close to a gay person as they are to a straight person. But, at the same time, I have one specific friend who has talked to me about why she spanks her kids--she was raised by parents who didn't spank but used lots of guilt and yelled a lot, and so she spanks because to her that means the punishment happens and then is over and forgotten, rather than a grudge being held--and because I know that about her, I understand her better than most people who spank and it's not a barrier for me to be friends with her. Similarly, I know there are some people who believe homosexuality is sinful who still can have a close friendship with a gay person, because once they get to know the person, they can understand where the behavior they find so wrong is coming from, and that makes it less hateful to them.

So, I want to concede to your initial argument: yes, it is absolutely possible to hate a behavior but not hate the people who engage in it, because I hate spanking but I do not hate all people who spank their kids. But, at the same time, I also know that I need to recognize that my hatred of spanking is not just some righteous hatred that I have because I hate everything I think is a bad parenting practice, but because I have a particular, visceral hatred of spanking that I don't have for other forms of bad parenting--especially the bad parenting habits I have like yelling and impatience--and that is something I have to fight against so that I don't somehow place myself in a position where I believe that I am better than other parents who spank because my bad practices bother me less.

 

[outlaw]

Saying, "You are going to go to hell" to someone no matter the situation is absurd. Saying, "This can lead you down the wrong path and that is possibly to hell unless you change because that's the consequence" is in a loving manner. Again you motives and how you say it (either in love or not) determine how it will be taken and such.

Condeming someone vs. telling someone that they are doing something wrong and going down the wrong path are different. Quite different in fact.

You didn’t answer the question


Lets rephrase it to remove your attempt to duck it

Just as a reminder Loriersea took your position and changed the target form homosexuals to you (a hypothetically obese you) you were not happy about the turn of events and protested loudly at being even hypothetically on the receiving end of such “Christian love”

Now lets take the hypothetically obese you and the friendly and well meaning Christian who tells you if you don’t loose sufficient weight to please me and my standards then you are ignoring the will of God and that will ultimately land you in hell…and while you are loosing weight I will work to ensure your civil rights are denied because you are such a sinfully fat person.

And before you try to protest the phrasing above this is what you are demanding of gays and lesbians, that they conform to YOUR standards (calling them God’s standards does not make them so, you have selectively interpreted the bible o justify your position making them YOUR standards) and to live in a way that is pleasing to you.

Now you will note that the friendly fat hating Christian above (Notice said Christian does not hate YOU….only who you are) is not condemning you to hell, rather he/she is just telling the hypnotically fat you how disgusting and sinful you really are...in a loving manner of course


Now…

Can you tell us why you did not feel the love and compassion from loriersea (or the friendly fat hating Christian) when she/he confronted the hypothetically obese you in a loving manner and demanding you conform

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

You didn’t answer the question


Lets rephrase it to remove your attempt to duck it

Just as a reminder Loriersea took your position and changed the target form homosexuals to you (a hypothetically obese you) you were not happy about the turn of events and protested loudly at being even hypothetically on the receiving end of such “Christian love”

Now lets take the hypothetically obese you and the friendly and well meaning Christian who tells you if you don’t loose sufficient weight to please me and my standards then you are ignoring the will of God and that will ultimately land you in hell…and while you are loosing weight I will work to ensure your civil rights are denied because you are such a sinfully fat person.

And before you try to protest the phrasing above this is what you are demanding of gays and lesbians, that they conform to YOUR standards (calling them God’s standards does not make them so, you have selectively interpreted the bible o justify your position making them YOUR standards) and to live in a way that is pleasing to you.

Now you will note that the friendly fat hating Christian above (Notice said Christian does not hate YOU….only who you are) is not condemning you to hell, rather he/she is just telling the hypnotically fat you how disgusting and sinful you really are...in a loving manner of course


Now…

Can you tell us why you did not feel the love and compassion from loriersea (or the friendly fat hating Christian) when she/he confronted the hypothetically obese you in a loving manner and demanding you conform

This is my issue. I am not. I am simply going by what God has said in His word. If you don't want to believe it, oh well I can't and won't make you do anything, but I will tell you what God has said, as w/ any other sin. It's up to the folks to believe it or not.

That's all I'll say w/ this.

 

[Cerberus~]

See, this is being applied to all of one group, conservatives and not all are like that. That is where my issue lies. I think calling folks names and showing hate and such is wrong, but simply not agreeing and disliking the action isn't anywhere near hate and though people do hate the actual person, saying ALL that hate the action hate the actual person is false because some of us can actually seperate an action, such as lying, adultery, etc....from the person and see that the person is still a person that God loves a lot.

I know not all conservatives are like that, I'm a conservative, for more so than most republicans in fact.

If you're not 'hatin', then why the need to say you don't hate gays? 9 times out of 10, I hear that come from the mouths of people who regularly refer to gays as perverts.

Now maybe you can seperate the sin and the sinner, a lot of people can't, and either they're too ignorant or deceitful to the point that they will spew that line whenever someone calls them out on their...stuff.

Hate is a strong word. Do you really hate homosexuality, or do you just disagree with it? Hate goes beyond disagreement. Hate isnt even healthy. Hate consumes you if you don't do something about it. It'll get to the point that you start calling them perverts, because all you other Baptist buddies all. Those walls will start to shift, and eventually you'll hate gays. Especially if you believe the liars and fools that claim it's a choice, because then, it's like rapists, if they can just choose it, then it really does make them contemptable, and it makes it a whole lot easier to hate the sinner. That's why they go around saying that, to justify their behavior.

 

[outlaw]

This is my issue. I am not. I am simply going by what God has said in His word. If you don't want to believe it, oh well I can't and won't make you do anything, but I will tell you what God has said, as w/ any other sin. It's up to the folks to believe it or not.

That's all I'll say w/ this.

Again…you didn’t answer the question

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I know not all conservatives are like that, I'm a conservative, for more so than most republicans in fact.

If you're not 'hatin', then why the need to say you don't hate gays? 9 times out of 10, I hear that come from the mouths of people who regularly refer to gays as perverts.

Now maybe you can seperate the sin and the sinner, a lot of people can't, and either they're too ignorant or deceitful to the point that they will spew that line whenever someone calls them out on their...stuff.

Hate is a strong word. Do you really hate homosexuality, or do you just disagree with it? Hate goes beyond disagreement. Hate isnt even healthy. Hate consumes you if you don't do something about it. It'll get to the point that you start calling them perverts, because all you other Baptist buddies all. Those walls will start to shift, and eventually you'll hate gays. Especially if you believe the liars and fools that claim it's a choice, because then, it's like rapists, if they can just choose it, then it really does make them contemptable, and it makes it a whole lot easier to hate the sinner. That's why they go around saying that, to justify their behavior.

Hating SIN isn't unhealthy. God hates sin and if we truly love God, we will hate SIN as well. To fear God is to hate sin and the evil way.

Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.