• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

A false assumption

loriersea

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,216
231
48
Detroit, MI
Visit site
✟26,071.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Lilly of the Valley said:
You're probably right, however, I think christians should point out when someone is in error in a loving way at appropriate times, sadly not all do.

How many threads do you see here talking about the evils of greed, gossiping, heterosexual lust, or envy?

How many times have YOU ever told someone they were sinning because they were greedy, a gossiper, envious, lustful, or gluttonous?

Personally, I find the idea of pointing out people's sins as "loving" to be the wrong idea of love. Sure, Jesus pointed out people's sins--but let's not forget that he was Jesus. We're not. I know when I do something wrong. The people who love me don't encourage me to do the wrong thing, but they do not berate me when I mess up. They love me unconditionally. If every time I were to act selfishly, gossip, spend more than I should, or show envy, I had someone tell me I was sinning, I'd figure out pretty fast that it wasn't love that was motivating them. That's not how we treat people we love.
 
Upvote 0
Jan 12, 2004
49,784
860
✟54,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
loriersea said:
How many threads do you see here talking about the evils of greed, gossiping, heterosexual lust, or envy?

How many times have YOU ever told someone they were sinning because they were greedy, a gossiper, envious, lustful, or gluttonous?

Personally, I find the idea of pointing out people's sins as "loving" to be the wrong idea of love. Sure, Jesus pointed out people's sins--but let's not forget that he was Jesus. We're not. I know when I do something wrong. The people who love me don't encourage me to do the wrong thing, but they do not berate me when I mess up. They love me unconditionally. If every time I were to act selfishly, gossip, spend more than I should, or show envy, I had someone tell me I was sinning, I'd figure out pretty fast that it wasn't love that was motivating them. That's not how we treat people we love.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

*** 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

If you love someone, will you let them continue in harms way? Is that love? No. God rebukes us when we sin, okut of love and he wants us in a loving way to tell others if they are in the way of death.
 
Upvote 0

loriersea

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,216
231
48
Detroit, MI
Visit site
✟26,071.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Lilly of the Valley said:
If you love someone, will you let them continue in harms way? Is that love? No. God rebukes us when we sin, okut of love and he wants us in a loving way to tell others if they are in the way of death.

But we all sin, all the time. There is no way around it. Every single one of us is, more often than we'd like to admit and probably more often than not, greedy, envious, selfish, quick to anger, jealous, envious, lustful, gossipy, gluttonous, disobedient and/or proud. And if someone were to constantly point that out to us, we would not think they were loving, and we'd be right.

I mean, think of a parent. If a parent were to continually tell their child that their child was greedy (which kids often are), lazy (which they often are), disobedient (which they often are), gluttonous (which they often are), selfish (which they often are), and envious (which they often are), would that parent really be loving their child? Would they be loving their child well? I don't think so. I think the loving parent doesn't chastise their child for those things and tell their child they are a greedy, lazy, disobedient, selfish, bad child, but instead tries to bring out the best in their child, by setting a good example and praising good behavior and saving their disapproval for behaviors that are truly, imminently harmful (like running into the street or trying to touch a hot stove or hitting another child).

If you believe that sinners will burn in hell, fine. Believe that. But, you aren't being loving if you continually point that out to someone. Leave God's judgement up to God. When dealing with other people who you love, I see no reason to criticize their behavior unless they are in imminent, actual, physical harm (and I do not consider you thinking someone is going to be tortured in hell for all eternity by God to be imminent, actual harm). So, if someone you love, gay or straight, is engaging in promiscuous sex, sure I'd say that you should lovingly talk to them about their behavior and why you think it's harmful (risk of disease and pregnancy), or if they are overeating to the point where their health is at risk, you might want to lovingly bring it up and let them know you are there for them if they need you, but even then that should be it. After you broach the subject once, anything more is nagging and is going to cause hurt, and that's not loving.

But, in any case, I don't think "love the sinner, hate the sin" works, especially if you hold to the idea of eternal damnation and believe that "love the sinner, hate the sin" is what God does. So God loves the sinner and hates the sin, and so he tortures sinners in hell for all eternity (unless they accept the right theological propositions)? And torturing people in hell for all eternity is showing love for the sinner in what way? That is hate, pure and simple. The truth is that that view of God shows a God who hates sin AND hates sinners, and unfortunately that is what many people who follow that God do as well.
 
Upvote 0
Jan 12, 2004
49,784
860
✟54,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
loriersea said:
But we all sin, all the time. There is no way around it. Every single one of us is, more often than we'd like to admit and probably more often than not, greedy, envious, selfish, quick to anger, jealous, envious, lustful, gossipy, gluttonous, disobedient and/or proud. And if someone were to constantly point that out to us, we would not think they were loving, and we'd be right.

I mean, think of a parent. If a parent were to continually tell their child that their child was greedy (which kids often are), lazy (which they often are), disobedient (which they often are), gluttonous (which they often are), selfish (which they often are), and envious (which they often are), would that parent really be loving their child? Would they be loving their child well? I don't think so. I think the loving parent doesn't chastise their child for those things and tell their child they are a greedy, lazy, disobedient, selfish, bad child, but instead tries to bring out the best in their child, by setting a good example and praising good behavior and saving their disapproval for behaviors that are truly, imminently harmful (like running into the street or trying to touch a hot stove or hitting another child).

If you believe that sinners will burn in hell, fine. Believe that. But, you aren't being loving if you continually point that out to someone. Leave God's judgement up to God. When dealing with other people who you love, I see no reason to criticize their behavior unless they are in imminent, actual, physical harm (and NOT in danger of being tortured for all eternity by God). So, if someone you love, gay or straight, is engaging in promiscuous sex, sure I'd say that you should lovingly talk to them about their behavior and why you think it's harmful (risk of disease and pregnancy), or if they are overeating to the point where their health is at risk, you might want to lovingly bring it up and let them know you are there for them if they need you, but even then that should be it. After you broach the subject once, anything more is nagging and is going to cause hurt, and that's not loving.

I'm not talking about over and over and over telling every little messed up thing a person does, but you use wisdom and tell them that it is harmful or not right. If they listen good, if not, then oh well, but don't push it. God doesn't encourage pushing and forcing and such....but he does want us to point out things when needed. That is love. Even parents do that.
 
Upvote 0

flicka

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 9, 2003
7,939
617
✟83,856.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
If there is someone in your life that is doing something you consider wrong then feel free to say so. If that person continues to do it then you have a choice to remain quiet for the sake the the relationship or to end the relationship entirely. That's fine too. If you do not have a close relationship with someone there is no need to ever share your POV with them. I don't believe in "hate the sin, love the sinner" because 9 times out of 10 your talking about someone who isn't close to you and you really don't have any 'love' for them...that's just one of those things people say to make themselves sound good.
 
Upvote 0
If you love someone, will you let them continue in harms way? Is that love? No. God rebukes us when we sin, okut of love and he wants us in a loving way to tell others if they are in the way of death.
You cant save everyboddy. I think thats one of the first things they teach you when you study to be a doctor or a nurse.

I KNOW its something tell combat medics. If someone is just beyond saving, move on to someone you can help.

Love is telling someone when theyre in a bad position or headed for a bad situation and encouraging them to do something to change. Then backing off if they refuse and insist on going foreward
 
Upvote 0

loriersea

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,216
231
48
Detroit, MI
Visit site
✟26,071.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Lilly of the Valley said:
I'm not talking about over and over and over telling every little messed up thing a person does, but you use wisdom and tell them that it is harmful or not right. If they listen good, if not, then oh well, but don't push it. God doesn't encourage pushing and forcing and such....but he does want us to point out things when needed. That is love. Even parents do that.

But do you honestly think there is any gay person in this country who doesn't know that conservative Christians believe being gay is a sin? I don't think there is. They all know. They have heard it over and over. The loving thing to do, then, is to just stop. They know all about how sinful some Christians think they are. At this point, I can see nothing motivating the constant repetition of it but mean-spiritedness.
 
Upvote 0

crazyfingers

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2002
8,733
329
Massachusetts
Visit site
✟41,423.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Lilly of the Valley said:
I disagree. The fact is, and you don't have to believe this, but stuff has spiritual consequences. I think trying to tell people of them and thus help them in the end is way better than letting them just go on in ignorance and thus face the horrid consequences that could be avoided.

You are certainly free to try to convince others of your mystic ideas. However you must draw the line at attempting to make them stop or restrict their rights.

As with my first post, it's fine to talk about what you don't think is good. But until you can show that someone is harming another, you must not attempt to restrict their freedom. That is, unfortunately, what far to many people try to do. And they become the ones to stepped over the line to immorality.
 
Upvote 0
Jan 12, 2004
49,784
860
✟54,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Helo said:
You cant save everyboddy. I think thats one of the first things they teach you when you study to be a doctor or a nurse.

I KNOW its something tell combat medics. If someone is just beyond saving, move on to someone you can help.

Love is telling someone when theyre in a bad position or headed for a bad situation and encouraging them to do something to change. Then backing off if they refuse and insist on going foreward

Uh, of course you can't! That's no excuse to let someone be ignorant. If someone was in front of a car, would you let them be smashed or warn them of the approaching car and give them a chance?
 
Upvote 0
Jan 12, 2004
49,784
860
✟54,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
flicka said:
If there is someone in your life that is doing something you consider wrong then feel free to say so. If that person continues to do it then you have a choice to remain quiet for the sake the the relationship or to end the relationship entirely. That's fine too. If you do not have a close relationship with someone there is no need to ever share your POV with them. I don't believe in "hate the sin, love the sinner" because 9 times out of 10 your talking about someone who isn't close to you and you really don't have any 'love' for them...that's just one of those things people say to make themselves sound good.

You can have a love for folks you aren't close to.
 
Upvote 0
Lilly of the Valley said:
Uh, of course you can't! That's no excuse to let someone be ignorant.
So Im too dumb to read the bible myself? I need hundreds of people shoving it in my face and changing laws around me to suit the biblical standard?

If someone was in front of a car, would you let them be smashed or warn them of the approaching car and give them a chance?
Depends, If I liked them, yeah Id proabably push them out of the way.

If I didnt like 'em, Id take bets with the guy next to me about where his head would land
 
Upvote 0
Jan 12, 2004
49,784
860
✟54,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Helo said:
So Im too dumb to read the bible myself? I need hundreds of people shoving it in my face and changing laws around me to suit the biblical standard?

Depends, If I liked them, yeah Id proabably push them out of the way.

If I didnt like 'em, Id take bets with the guy next to me about where his head would land

You can read it but miss what's it's saying.

Well, that's you.
 
Upvote 0

loriersea

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,216
231
48
Detroit, MI
Visit site
✟26,071.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Lilly of the Valley said:
You can have a love for folks you aren't close to.

Sure we can. But, some relationships are deeper than others. Let's say that you are extremely overweight. Which would you consider loving: a person you don't know (but who claims to "love" you) telling you that gluttony is a sin and you will burn in hell unless you change your behavior and accept Jesus, or a close friend or relative, who you know loves you, telling you that they are concerned about your eating habits, are worried for your health, and are there for you if you need support, and then leaving it at that?
 
Upvote 0

flicka

Contributor
Site Supporter
Dec 9, 2003
7,939
617
✟83,856.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Lilly of the Valley said:
You can have a love for folks you aren't close to.
I'm not sure you can. You can be concerned for other and care about them but it's not exactly love. Besides, if the other person doesn't "feel the love" or even want it then I say MYOB.
 
Upvote 0
Jan 12, 2004
49,784
860
✟54,471.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
loriersea said:
Sure we can. But, some relationships are deeper than others. Let's say that you are significantly overweight. Which would you consider loving: a person you don't know (but who claims to "love" you) telling you that gluttony is a sin and you will burn in hell unless you change your behavior and accept Jesus, or a close friend or relative, who you know loves you, telling you that they are concerned about your eating habits and are there for you if you need support, and then leaving it at that?

You are missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying to be hateful and such. There are times to warn and rebuke and times to simply tell them that they need to work on something. That's why you use wisdom as I said earlier. Either way, if someone is off you say something, use wisdom on how and then use wisdom whether to bring it up or not again, depending on the person.
 
Upvote 0