A false assumption

[Lilly of the Valley]

I happen to disagree, but thats a side matter.

So if flesh cant understand spirit, why is your understanding so much greater than mine? Your not any better than me

What I know isn't of myself...It's God Himself, not me.

 

[loriersea]

Lilly, I understand what you are saying, but the real question is what the intention behind the message is.

I have a friend who is extremely overweight. Do I love her? Yes. Do I think she has very poor eating habits? Yes. Do I worry about her? Yes. But, do I say anything to her about it? No. Why? Because she knows she is extremely overweight. She is fully aware of it, and of the health risks involved. She has a PhD, knows what foods are healthy and what aren't. So what would be loving about me pointing it out? Nothing. What would be loving about me saying, "You know, you are morbidly obese and that is really unhealthy, plus gluttony is sinful"? Nothing. As her friend--as someone who loves her--I'm just her friend. We hang out, we talk, we go places, and I don't treat her any differently than I treat any other friend I have, because it's not like anyone I know doesn't have problems. Now, as a loving friend, it makes sense for me to sometimes suggest that, when we hang out, maybe we go for a walk and then stop for a coffee rather than watching videos and eating popcorn all the time. But, I cannot see anything loving about me pointing out something she is already fully aware of. In fact, I have no doubt it was be cruel and mean-spirited for me to say, "You are morbidly obese, and that is unhealthy, and gluttony is sinful." If I felt like doing that, I would have to question my own motivations, because it certainly wouldn't be love motivating me.

And, in the same way, there is simply no gay person in America today who is not fully, totally aware that conservative Christians think it is a sin. So what are you gaining by telling them that? How many posts are there here at CF about how sinful homosexuality is? And yet, has there ever been a gay person who said, "Hey, you know what? I never heard that homosexuality was sinful before! Now that I know, I'm not going to be gay anymore"? If there has, I haven't seen it. All I know are gay people who have heard how sinful they are over and over and over. So what is wise or loving about being one more person telling them that? To me, that's like yelling "Fat pig" or "Cow" out your car window at a fat person, or stopping a morbidly obese person you seen on line at the grocery story to lecture them about the contents of their cart. They already know that is how many people in society see them, and there is simply no way that further reminding them can be seen as loving.

So that's my question: Do you think there are gay people in America who do not know that conservative Christians think homosexuality is a sin? And, if they already know, what is loving or wise about you telling them that?

 

[Helo]

What I know isn't of myself...It's God Himself, not me.

Nice dodge but that doesnt answer my question.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Lilly, I understand what you are saying, but the real question is what the intention behind the message is.

I have a friend who is extremely overweight. Do I love her? Yes. Do I think she has very poor eating habits? Yes. Do I worry about her? Yes. But, do I say anything to her about it? No. Why? Because she knows she is extremely overweight. She is fully aware of it, and of the health risks involved. She has a PhD, knows what foods are healthy and what aren't. So what would be loving about me pointing it out? Nothing. What would be loving about me saying, "You know, you are morbidly obese and that is really unhealthy, plus gluttony is sinful"? Nothing. As her friend--as someone who loves her--I'm just her friend. We hang out, we talk, we go places, and I don't treat her any differently than I treat any other friend I have, because it's not like anyone I know doesn't have problems. Now, as a loving friend, it makes sense for me to sometimes suggest that, when we hang out, maybe we go for a walk and then stop for a coffee rather than watching videos and eating popcorn all the time. But, I cannot see anything loving about me pointing out something she is already fully aware is a problem. In fact, I have no doubt it was be cruel and mean-spirited for me to say, "You are morbidly obese, and that is unhealthy, and gluttony is sinful." If I felt like doing that, I would have to question my own motivations, because it certainly wouldn't be love motivating me.

And, in the same way, there is simply no gay person in America today who is not fully, totally aware that conservative Christians think it is a sin. So what are you gaining my telling them that? How many posts are there here at CF about how sinful homosexuality is? And yet, has there ever been a gay person who said, "Hey, you know what? I never heard that homosexuality was sinful before! Now that I know, I'm not going to be gay anymore"? If there has, I haven't seen it. All I know are gay people who have heard how sinful they are over and over and over. So what is wise or loving about being one more person telling them that? To me, that's like yelling "Fat pig" or "Cow" out your car window at a fat person, or stopping a morbidly obese person you seen on line at the grocery story to lecture them about the contents of their cart. They already know that is how many people in society see them, and there is simply no way that further reminding them can be seen as loving.

My thing is, stuff happens where issues come up and it's mentioned. That's just life.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Nice dodge but that doesnt answer my question.

It is an answer. Who gives understanding, God and it's understanding of the spirit. If you don't have the spirit, you won't get it. I have the HS and that is God Himself, and thus God Himself giving me the understanding and such.

 

[Helo]

It is an answer. Who gives understanding, God and it's understanding of the spirit. If you don't have the spirit, you won't get it. I have the HS and that is God Himself, and thus God Himself giving me the understanding and such.

So what your saying is your better because you've accepted God?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

So what your saying is your better because you've accepted God?

No. I am saying that I understand only by God. This is even in the Bible. Spirit understands spirit, not flesh.

 

[Helo]

No. I am saying that I understand only by God. This is even in the Bible. Spirit understands spirit, not flesh.

So you know more than me because you believe in God?

 

[loriersea]

My thing is, stuff happens where issues come up and it's mentioned. That's just life.

That's life, but that doesn't mean it's okay to not be loving.

Let's say you were having a discussion with a group of your friends. One of your friends was very overweight. The discussion topic turned to obesity. Wouldn't you take your friend's presence and feelings into consideration as you commented? Would you start going on and on about how sinful gluttony is, how unrepentant gluttons must not really be Christians and are going to hell, about how dangerous and disgusting obesity is, even if that's how you felt? Wouldn't you moderate your comments in order to show love and compassion for your friend? Wouldn't you even possibly keep silent, or jump in to the defense of the obese, so that your friend would know that they had an ally, someone who loved them no matter what?

And, if you did jump in and join the others in ragging on the obese and how they are unrepentant gluttons, how do you think your friend would feel? If afterwards you said, "But I really love you," do you think that would sound sincere at all?

In the same way, why not show gays and lesbians the same consideration? Why not be the one to show love, rather than condemnation? Why not be the one who takes the feelings of the gay or lesbian person who might be listening into consideration, and either keep silent, or be the one to speak out in the defense of the gay or lesbian person? Isn't that what we would do for someone we loved?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

So you know more than me because you believe in God?

Well, you can't expect to know what God is saying w/o Him telling you and revealing it. And that won't happen if you don't even believe and trust in Him.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

That's life, but that doesn't mean it's okay to not be loving.

Let's say you were having a discussion with a group of your friends. One of your friends was very overweight. The discussion topic turned to obesity. Wouldn't you take your friend's presence and feelings into consideration as you commented? Would you start going on and on about how sinful gluttony is, how unrepentant gluttons must not really be Christians and are going to hell, about how dangerous and disgusting obesity is, even if that's how you felt? Wouldn't you moderate your comments in order to show love and compassion for your friend? Wouldn't you even possibly keep silent, or jump in to the defense of the obese, so that your friend would know that they had an ally, someone who loved them no matter what?

And, if you did jump in and join the others in ragging on the obese and how they are unrepentant gluttons, how do you think your friend would feel? If afterwards you said, "But I really love you," do you think that would sound sincere at all?

In the same way, why not show gays and lesbians the same consideration? Why not be the one to show love, rather than condemnation? Why not be the one who takes the feelings of the gay or lesbian person who might be listening into consideration, and either keep silent, or be the one to speak out in the defense of the gay or lesbian person? Isn't that what we would do for someone we loved?

Am I saying not to show love? No. I even said do it in love. Warning and rebuke and telling someone that they are in the wrong aren't unloving when done at the rt. time and in love. Condemnation isn't rt., but warning and rebuke and such aren't that if done in love.

 

[loriersea]

Am I saying not to show love? No. I even said do it in love. Warning and rebuke and telling someone that they are in the wrong aren't unloving when done at the rt. time and in love. Condemnation isn't rt., but warning and rebuke and such aren't that if done in love.

But isn't there a point at which the "warning and rebuke," even if you believe it can be loving, ceases to be loving?

Again, do you think there are any gay men or lesbians in the United States today who are not aware that conservative Christians (or, as many unfortunately believe, all Christians) believe that are sinful, wrong, and going to hell? I cannot imagine there are any. So, what is loving about telling them again, when they have already heard it a million times? How is that loving?

If you happen to meet a gay person who has been living under a rock and is unaware that conservative Christians believe homosexuality is a sin, then by all means go on and rebuke them if you wish. Let them know that you believe that homosexuality is an abomination to God, and quote them the verses from Leviticus and Romans and tell them God destroyed Sodom because the men there were gay. Give them the warning you believe they need. But, if they haven't been living under a rock and have already had people tell them all of that over and over, how are you being loving by doing it again?

What is loving about telling people they are sinful when they have already been told that over and over and over, by their families, by their churches and communities, by strangers? How exactly is that showing them love?

Just think about something in your own life that the Bible says is sinful. It can be something that perhaps you don't think is sinful that other Christians do, like dancing, or something that you also think is sinful, like gossiping. If you had a friend who believed that dancing was sinful, and you decided that you were going to be a dancer, would you consider it loving for that friend to tell you over and over that dancing was a sin and you were an unrepentant sinner and going to hell? If a friend harped on your gossiping all the time, and kept telling you it was sinful and if you didn't stop that meant you were an unrepentant sinner and so we going to hell, would that be loving?

 

[crazyfingers]

It is an answer. Who gives understanding, God and it's understanding of the spirit. If you don't have the spirit, you won't get it. I have the HS and that is God Himself, and thus God Himself giving me the understanding and such.

That is a statement of faith. It is not a statement of fact.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

But isn't there a point at which the "warning and rebuke," even if you believe it can be loving, ceases to be loving?

Again, do you think there are any gay men or lesbians in the United States today who are not aware that conservative Christians (or, as many unfortunately believe, all Christians) believe that are sinful, wrong, and going to hell? I cannot imagine there are any. So, what is loving about telling them again, when they have already heard it a million times? How is that loving?

If you happen to meet a gay person who has been living under a rock and is unaware that conservative Christians believe homosexuality is a sin, then by all means go on and rebuke them if you wish. Let them know that you believe that homosexuality is an abomination to God, and quote them the verses from Leviticus and Romans and tell them God destroyed Sodom because the men there were gay. Give them the warning you believe they need. But, if they haven't been living under a rock and have already had people tell them all of that over and over, how are you being loving by doing it again?

What is loving about telling people they are sinful when they have already been told that over and over and over, by their families, by their churches and communities, by strangers? How exactly is that showing them love?

Just think about something in your own life that the Bible says is sinful. It can be something that perhaps you don't think is sinful that other Christians do, like dancing, or something that you also think is sinful, like gossiping. If you had a friend who believed that dancing was sinful, and you decided that you were going to be a dancer, would you consider it loving for that friend to tell you over and over that dancing was a sin and you were an unrepentant sinner and going to hell? If a friend harped on your gossiping all the time, and kept telling you it was sinful and if you didn't stop that meant you were an unrepentant sinner and so we going to hell, would that be loving?

Yeah, if it's not in love. If it is in love, then it won't be unloving. It's that simple.

As I've said, use wisdom and love will do it at the rt. time and such usually and will be in such a way that's not offensive usually.

 

[loriersea]

Yeah, if it's not in love. If it is in love, then it won't be unloving. It's that simple.

You are actually making it really not simple. You keep throwing around "loving" and "unloving," but I have yet to see any examples of either one.

A parent can say they are beating their child out of love. That doesn't mean it is loving.

Is there a loving way to tell someone who is morbidly obese, and is fully aware of that and what the medical community says about obesity, that they are an unrepentant glutton who is going to hell if they don't change?

Is there a loving way to tell someone who is very envious, and is fully aware that they are envious and what the church says about envy, that they are an unrepentant envier who is going to hell if they don't change?

And, do you honestly believe that there is any loving way to tell someone who is gay, and is fully aware of what conservative Christians have to say about being gay, that they are unrepentant sinners who are going to hell if they don't change?

I think you need to start questioning the motivations of the people who are so busy telling gays and lesbians how sinful they are that they ignore millions of other sins. Is it love that is motivating so many Christians to denounce homosexuality and call it an abomination and homosexuals unrepentant sinners who are going to hell while remaining silent on greed, heterosexual lust, envy, pride, selfishness, and divorce? Is it love that motivates James Dobson and his AFA crowd to boycott anything that seems like it might possibly be treating gays and lesbians like everyone else, while not boycotting things that promote envy, greed, gluttony, gossip, and heterosexual lust? Is it love that motivates people here to start thread after thread that denounces homosexuality and goes on and on about how sinful homosexuality is, while there is never a thread about the sinfulness of greed or envy or gossip?

Can you really, honestly look at what is happening, and how so many conservative Christians and conservative churches respond to homosexuality, and say that love is the motivator? Because I don't see how anyone can.

As I've said, use wisdom and love will do it at the rt. time and such usually and will be in such a way that's not offensive usually.

Maybe you need to ask the gay men and lesbians here if they find being told over and over that they are sinners who are going to hell if they don't change offensive. Because I know plenty of gay Christians who have found the things they were told growing up not only offensive, but hateful, hurtful, and highly damaging. They certainly did not feel like they were being loved.

I wonder if there is one gay person here who can say that they feel that they are being told that they are unrepentant sinners and abominations in the eyes of God, and will burn in hell for eternity if they don't change, because they are loved so much? Is there a gay person here who feels that your statements about homosexuality are loving, and that you are acting out of genuine love?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Okay, this is the problem, there are some christians that are being hateful and such....but to put ALL conservatives and etc...in the same boat is off. Not ALL are doing that and showing hate.

 

[loriersea]

Okay, this is the problem, there are some christians that are being hateful and such....but to put ALL conservatives and etc...in the same boat is off. Not ALL are doing that and showing hate.

I agree with you entirely. Not all people are being hateful. It is perfectly possible--and quite likely--that there are people who believe that homosexuality is sinful who nevertheless treat gay and lesbian people with as much love and compassion as they treat anyone else.

However, I still think that begs the question of whether such people would be going around talking about how sinful homosexuality is. I don't believe they would. Do you make it a practice to point out the sins of people you love? Is that how you show your love for people? I'm not talking about gay people you love. I mean straight people. I'm sure you love lots of straight people: your family, your friends, your church members. Do you make it a habit to point their sins out to them? If there is a sin that one of the people you love is struggling with, and you get involved in a conversation about that sin, how do you respond?

My point is that if someone claims to love gay people, then they should treat them exactly the way they treat straight people they love. If they are in the habit of pointing out how sinful the straight people they love are, then by all means point out how sinful the gay people you love are. If they are in the habit of going on and on in discussions about how sinful the gluttony or greed or envy or lust that their straight loved ones struggle with is, then by all means go on and on in discussion about how sinful the homosexuality that their gay loved ones struggle with is.

But, if they tend, like most of us do with the people we love, to not point out where their loved ones are acting sinfully, but to simply support them, comfort them, encourage them, and try to set a good example for them, then I do not see any justification for treating gay and lesbian people differently but still calling how you treat them "love."

I'm sure there are lots of people who believe that homosexuality is wrong but want to be loving to gay and lesbian people, and struggle with how to do it, because certainly many churches have NOT provided good models for how to do this. To me, the answer to that is pretty easy. Everyone sins, right? You must have many straight loved ones who sin, and some of them probably sin in really big or frequent ways. How do you treat them? How do you deal with their sin? How often do you mention it, if you do at all? How do you mention it, if you do at all? How do you show your love for them? Then just do the same thing for gay and lesbian people.

And, if you find that you are responding to gay and lesbian people differently from how you respond to straight people you love who sin, and if you respond to what you consider to be the sin of homosexuals in a different way than you respond to what you consider to be the sins of straight people, then I think you can be pretty sure that it is NOT love that is the motivator.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I agree with you entirely. Not all people are being hateful. It is perfectly possible--and quite likely--that there are people who believe that homosexuality is sinful who nevertheless treat gay and lesbian people with as much love and compassion as they treat anyone else.

However, I still think that begs the question of whether such people would be going around talking about how sinful homosexuality is. I don't believe they would. Do you make it a practice to point out the sins of people you love? Is that how you show your love for people? I'm not talking about gay people you love. I mean straight people. I'm sure you love lots of straight people: your family, your friends, your church members. Do you make it a habit to point their sins out to them? If there is a sin that one of the people you love is struggling with, and you get involved in a conversation about that sin, how do you respond?

My point is that if someone claims to love gay people, then they should treat them exactly the way they treat straight people they love. If they are in the habit of pointing out how sinful the straight people they love are, then by all means point out how sinful the gay people you love are. If they are in the habit of going on and on in discussions about how sinful the gluttony or greed or envy or lust that their straight loved ones struggle with is, then by all means go on and on in discussion about how sinful the homosexuality that their gay loved ones struggle with is.

But, if they tend, like most of us do with the people we love, to not point out where their loved ones are acting sinfully, but to simply support them, comfort them, encourage them, and try to set a good example for them, then I do not see any justification for treating gay and lesbian people differently but still calling how you treat them "love."

I'm sure there are lots of people who believe that homosexuality is wrong but want to be loving to gay and lesbian people, and struggle with how to do it, because certainly many churches have NOT provided good models for how to do this. To me, it's pretty easy. Everyone sins, right? You must have many straight loved ones who sin, and some of them probably sin in really big or frequent ways. How do you treat them? How do you deal with their sin? How often do you mention it, if you do at all? How do you mention it, if you do at all? How do you show your love for them? Then just do the same thing for gay and lesbian people.

Pointing out flaws all day isn't love, I'm talking about if someone is going down the wrong road or harming themselves/others, you need to tell them in a loving way at the right time and etc...and that doesn't mean pushing it over and over.

Okay, I pretty much agree w/ the rest.

 

[loriersea]

I do agree that there can be a time and a place to tell someone if you believe they are harming themselves. My standards for what would constitute "harming themselves" would probably differ from yours, and yours would probably differ from someone's elses, but obviously if you believe that a friend is doing something harmful, you will say something.

But, again, the issue is how it is said, and the issue is who and when it is said. I think it is hard for many straight Christians to fully comprehend exactly how much pain Christians and the church have caused for many gay and lesbian people. I think sometimes straight Christians like to imagine that the reason a lot of gay and lesbian people don't like Christianity (or at least certain aspects of it) is because they don't like that the church says homosexuality is a sin. But, I don't think that's true. It's not the fact that the church says homosexuality is a sin that hurts people so much, because the church says lots of things that we all do all the time are sins. It's the fact that many prominent Christians, many politicians, and many churches pick on gay and lesbian people in a mean-spiritied, cruel way that they do NOT use when speaking of the sins of straight people.

There are just as many, if not more (depending on which statistic you look at), evangelical Christians who are divorced than other Americans. And, we can imagine that as many of those divorces were due to reasons other than adultery as any other divorces. And yet, divorced Christians sit in evangelical churches week after week, sometimes even as they are going through a divorce for a reason other than adultery, despite knowing the church believes it is sinful. Why? If every week televangelists and politicians and preachers went on and on about how sinful divorce is, how any divorce not due to adultery is a sin and a remarriage after such a divorce is invalid in God's eyes and the new relationship is a sinful one, that divorced people were bringing about the downfall of our society, that divorced people were trying to get our children and make them think divorce is okay, that divorced people are living in a state of unrepentant sin and are going to hell if they don't turn to Jesus (which they clearly haven't done, or else they wouldn't be living in unrepentant sin), do you think those divorced people would be sitting in the church? No. Sure, they know the church thinks their divorce is sinful, but because they aren't singled out and treated differently than everyone else--because grace is not denied to them--they stay. Same thing with women who have had abortions, people who have had or are currently having premarital or extramarital sex, gluttons, enviers, gossipers, the greedy, the lustful. Sure, they know the church considers their behaviors sinful. But because the church does not beat them over the head with how sinful they are every week, and because politicians and preachers don't hold them up as poster children for moral decline and blame them for everything that is wrong with society, they stay, because while the church has teachings that point out their sin, it also offers them grace. They are not treated as sinners, but as recipients of God's grace.

Unfortunately, that is not how gay and lesbian people are treated by many churches. "Hate the sin, love the sinner" means little when the church seems to love every sinner but you, and the only sin it really seems to hate is your sin. So while there may be a time and a place for pointing out someone's destructive behavior (if you believe it is destructive), I think it also needs to be asked what gay and lesbian people need from Christians. Do they need to be told their behavior is sinful and harmful again? I think probably not, because they have been told that over and over. If there is anything that Christians, even if they believe homosexuailty is sinful, want to offer gay and lesbian people, it should be grace. That is something most of them haven't received from Christians or Christian churches, and surely it's a lot more loving than one more lecture.

I have been consciously attending only churches that are gay and lesbian welcoming for a few years now, and it has been a really eye-opening experience. I have seen same-sex couples cry through an entire church service, or weep when we sing hymns, because they finally felt welcome in the church after being rejected for so many years. And, I think that we need to understand, as straight people, what it would be like to have never had the experience of sitting in a church and not being thought of as the worst sinner in the room. We need to understand what it would be like to have had what people considered to be our sin held up as the worst sin of all--a sin that needed to mobilized against politically, railed against in the media, denounced at every opportunity we had--and then to find a place where we were considered to be no better or worse than everyone else in the room. Think of the sin you struggle with the most (or even the behavior you struggle with the most, whether it is sinful or not), and how you would feel is politicians talk about how people who did what you do are destroying the family; if your church got involved in campaigns to deny rights to people who do what you do and spoke out about your sin while remaining silent about most other sins; if you were told that, while God forgives sinners, the fact that you are continuing in your sin must mean you don't really love God, and so you need to really accept Jesus, change your behavior, and then you'll be a real Christian. In that context, what would you want from a Christian who wanted to show you love? I just cannot imagine that what you'd want is one more lecture.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Well, I think the reason some people keep saying it over and over and over and over is because they aren't seeing a change or anything, but that's just a guess.

But I agree, there does need to be more love w/ it.