Yea, so keep telling me if you wish.
When you do next time, will tell me what these unfulfilled prophecies are?
Thank you. Nothing in the OT about the Messiah's second coming in the flesh. I wouldn't say this is entirely a non-answer, though. I'll address a couple things.Forgive me I'm not really all that educated on the Old Testament so I don't know exactly where in the Old testament these prophecies are I just know they exist I know most of them are in the Book of Micah and the Book of Isaiah but exactly where, I don't know. This also isn't going to be a complete list there are probably many more prophecies that Christ didn't fulfill the first time around. If somebody could help me that would be greatly appreciated. The messiah is supposed to reunite Israel and bring about world peace. Christ did not fulfill that prophecy the first time around and instead came to die for humanity. The book of Revelation says that Christ will do that when he returns by creating a new Heavens and a New Earth and gesturing in a new Era of peace. The Messiah is supposed to be a conqueror like David. Christ was not a conqueror the first time he came which is one reason why the Jews don't think he's the Messiah. The Messiah is supposed to rebuild the Holy Temple and rebuild Jerusalem. Again, Christ destroyed the temple the first time and the rebuilding of the temple and the New Jerusalem is described in the book of Revelation. Also, the Prophet Elijah is supposed to return to the Earth before the coming of the Messiah. This is again fulfilled in Christ's return.
Most of the OT prophecies that Christ did not fulfill the first time around are "fixed" in the book of Revelation when Christ comes back the second time. The Jews think that the Messiah will fulfill all of the prophecies in one swoop and not in two swoops. But prophecy also says that the Jews will reject their Messiah and that one day all of them will accept the Messiah. So... yeah.
A cloud surrounded him in the flesh? Is that so?
First, does a cloud surround him? Is that what the Bible says? Do clouds of heaven surround the Lord? Does He need such a vehicle?
When He comes to judge Egypt, He's on a cloud (Is 19:1). When He comes to judge Nineveh, clouds are the dust of His feet (Na 1:3). Clouds don't surround Him. Maybe in Acts, clouds did surround Him, but that's not what the Bible says.
This is a problem with futurism. It reads into the Bible what is not there, and yet insists that the Bible be read literally.
But I nitpick, and digress.
A cloud took him in the flesh, you say. He's human.
I, on the other hand, say he's divine.
Human beings don't resurrect; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't appear through locked doors; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't leave or appear in clouds of heaven; those are acts of divinity.
Or maybe you can provide examples of a human being doing any of theses of his own volition.
The resurrected Christ was transforming. He was taken out of the apostles' sight in power and glory.
They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being disappear in a cumulus cloud. They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being float up into space.
They saw the Lord taken out of their sight in power and glory.
Are you referring to this futurist belief, that Israel will unwittingly be signing a seven-year peace treaty with the Antichrist?The messiah is supposed to reunite Israel and bring about world peace.
Go back to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. "The Lord himself" will come back. He was and is both fully God and fully human, as he demonstrated while he was on earth and before he went back to heaven. Look at Acts 1:11, where the angels tell the disciples that this same Jesus they see go will come back. He had crucifixion scares on that resurrection body. In Philippians 3:20-21, our resurrection bodies will be "like his glorious body."Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Yes, clouds of heaven; not a stratus cloud, a cumulus cloud, or a fog hovering over a lake. Clouds of heaven.
Jesus also says that he will come “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.” (Mt 24:27) He comes as light from all directions. Also as the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thes 4:16). To repeat, a trumpet of God, not marching band brass.
The Bible does not describe a flesh-and-blood return of Christ.
When we consider all the ways that the Parousia is prophesied, we see that he comes everywhere. Lightning lights up the sky all around. The nature of his coming may elude us until we grasp it in the context of scripture. The way that Jesus comes—on clouds of heaven, as a call from God, as lightning—cannot be manifested in flesh and blood. A man cannot come in these ways. Christ’s advent is rather a return in power and spirit that the Scriptures corroborate. How much more glorious and momentous an advent that would be than to come in the body of a man.
Think about that for a moment, about limitations imposed on flesh and blood, even Christ’s. When in the flesh, Jesus performed miracles and amazed the crowds around him, and even some who heard by word of mouth. His miracles impacted locally. If he were to be a man again, what would change? What would his impact be globally and for all time? Would he really effect a worldwide utopia? Of course not. Even a return in power and spirit would not effect such an “idyllic” world. John the Divine says the wicked still live on the earth despite the presence of the kingdom. God’s kingdom does not vanquish evil from the world. It confronts evil and challenges it, but wickedness still persists outside the gates.
So where does the idea of a corporeal return come from? The church fathers? Dispensationalists? Who knows?
Certainly not from the Scriptures.
Well first I am not a futurist but rather a partial Preterist Amillennial that being said, I don't see how Jesus being taken up in a cloud in flesh or spiritual form would have any impact on His ascension. Basically we really do not know what condition He was in. At that time the Apostles saw Him in the flesh so the assumption is He went away in the same manner.
Blessings
Jesus always used the phrase "Son of the Man" in reference to His parousia.Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Yes, clouds of heaven; not a stratus cloud, a cumulus cloud, or a fog hovering over a lake. Clouds of heaven.
Jesus also says that he will come “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.” (Mt 24:27) He comes as light from all directions. Also as the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thes 4:16). To repeat, a trumpet of God, not marching band brass.
The Bible does not describe a flesh-and-blood return of Christ.
Or, the Catholic claim that Jesus returned spiritually, around the time of Constantine or Charlemagne. Effectively. They do not stand by this enough to have put it in their catechism, because it is terrible distortion of Revelation and all Prophecy.Yes it is a terrible distortion of Revelation, Prophecy and Catholic teaching. The Church has never taught such a ridiculous teaching. Please if you want correct Catholic teaching use a Catholic source. Otherwise you are going to get this sort of non-sense that Catholic’s see and even hear on some Protestant TV programs all the time.
Titus may have been instrumental in the judgment. That was all.Jesus always used the phrase "Son of the Man" in reference to His parousia.
I am going to take a stab here and say couldn't it be possible that he was referring to a flesh and blood man in the form of Titus in 70ad? [
First time phrase is used in Bible:
Num 23:19
God is not a man -- and lieth, And a son of man -- and repenteth! Hath He said -- and doth He not do it? And spoken -- and doth He not confirm it?
Last time used: what does it mean by "one like as a son of man"?
Rev 14:14
And I saw, and behold!a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;
Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'
27 for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;
37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man
39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away. Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.
The Jews actually asks Jesus who is this Son of Man?
Jhn 12:34
the multitude answered him, 'We heard out of the law that the Christ doth remain -- to the age; and how dost thou say, That it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up? who is this -- the Son of Man?'
Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting upon the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us.....
After His ascension:
Act 1:12
Then did they return to Jerusalem from the mount that is called of Olives, that is near Jerusalem, a sabbath's journey;
Coincidentally, Titus and his elite 10th Legion encamped on the Mount of Olives with a direct clear view of the Temple on the east side of the City.
https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
This map shows the location of the 1st century Mount of Olives in relation to the Temple/Jerusalem to the east.
And just for info, this map shows the position of the Roman Legions under about 40 yrs later.
Titus and his 10th Legion is camped on the Mount of Olives.
.................................
But I nitpick, and digress.
A cloud took him in the flesh, you say. He's human.
I, on the other hand, say he's divine.
When Christ returns he will return in the same physical body that he has when he rose from the grave and every one will be able to see his return.
That Jesus's body would not see corruption doesn't mean that his corporeal body would last forever. Human flesh decays. By definition, that's what it does. If Jesus' body did not decay, it was not human; it was divine.Paul states that the earth has one type of flesh and the heavens have another type of flesh. Thus when we rise, we are sown in a natural body (our current flesh) and risen in a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:39-44 Not all flesh is the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another, and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the splendor of the heavenly bodies is of one degree, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is of another. The sun has one degree of splendor, the moon another, and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
Paul states the spiritual body that we will be transformed into is like the glorious body of Jesus
Philippians 3:21 who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.
According to John, what we will be (spiritual body) has not been revealed yet. But when Christ appears will be like his glorious body
1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
**So if Jesus is still in his fleshly body upon his return, John is wrong, for that body was revealed to the disciples for 40 days post the resurrection until the ascension.
We were never promised that our flesh would not see decay. Only Jesus was prophesied to never see decay. Thus he was raised in his same fleshly body, with the same holes in his hands a side.
Acts 2:27 because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.
Then upon ascension into heaven he was glorified into a body that has not been completely revealed to us.
That Jesus's body would not see corruption doesn't mean that his corporeal body would last forever. Human flesh decays. By definition, that's what it does. If Jesus' body did not decay, it was not human; it was divine.
When Paul sees Jesus on the road to Damascus, he does not see a human body; he sees light. Later, he sees even further transformation; he sees Christ's body as the church.
Like Elijah, Jesus returned in spirit and power. But more than Elijah, Jesus returned everywhere. Like lightening, visible from east to west, Jesus is everywhere.
True enough.As a fellow preterist, I agree RB. My point was that:
1.) Jesus' fleshly body, not our bodies, was prophesied to never see decay (acts 2:27). Jesus' earthly fleshly body, post resurrection, was no different than his earthly fleshly body pre resurrection, because of that promise (acts 2:27). He was able to do miraculous things pre resurrection and post resurrection with his same fleshly body.
2.) Paul makes it specifically clear that our resurrection is NOT from natural flesh to natural flesh like Jesus, but from natural body TO SPIRITUAL body (1 Corinthians 15:44).
3.) What we WILL be, this resurrection from natural body to spiritual, has not yet been revealed. But when it is, THEN WE WILL BE LIKE HIM (1 john 3:2).
Thus, IF Jesus, in heaven, is still in his earthly fleshly body, then our resurrection will make us like him: another earthly fleshly body. This belief contradicts points 2 and 3 above. if Jesus is still in his earthly fleshly body in heaven, then what we will be like has already been revealed, as it was revealed to the disciples in the 1st century prior to Jesus' ascension. AND if our resurrection is like Jesus and we will be like him, then we go from natural flesh to natural flesh, which directly contradicts Paul's teaching of natural to spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:44).
Thus the purpose of Jesus being resurrected in the same exact earthly flesh was to fulfill scripture (his flesh would never see corruption). I believe that upon entrance into the heavens, he was glorified and thus no longer has a fleshly body, but is spiritual. Thus, when we are resurrected from natural to spiritual, we will be like him.
Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Yes, clouds of heaven; not a stratus cloud, a cumulus cloud, or a fog hovering over a lake. Clouds of heaven.
Jesus also says that he will come “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.” (Mt 24:27) He comes as light from all directions. Also as the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thes 4:16). To repeat, a trumpet of God, not marching band brass.
The Bible does not describe a flesh-and-blood return of Christ.
True enough.
To wait on a flesh-and-blood return is pointless. It's not even biblical. And I, for one, am not waiting for him. I rejoice in his presence now.
Hello tampasteve.If he does not return in flesh and blood and fulfill the remaining prophesies that were not fulfilled the first time around then he is and was not the messiah.
Zechariah 14:3-4
Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.