• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A Controversial Review of the Immaculate

FaeryChild

Junior Member
Apr 13, 2014
236
140
New England
✟23,596.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Regarding what you have underlined: that is not an accurate translation and ironically, I am going to quote Martin Luther of all people:

Martin Luther wrote:

"When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom." (That Jesus was Born a Jew)

In Luther's time, people misunderstood the idiom to think that Joseph and Mary did "know" each other. But the problem is that the Greek simply does not and cannot mean that - and even Luther of all people understood that! In fact, the preposition that is usually translated "until" actually implies a continuation, not a cessation.

For example:
Matthew uses the exact same preposition in Ch. 28 v.20, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world". The same word translated here as "unto" is often translated as "until" in Ch. 1 v.25. In both cases, the preposition does not strictly convey the English meaning of "until". It is easier to explain it than to strictly translate it, as it is an idiom (which, again, even Luther recognized!). Jesus is with us always, not just until the end of the world but afterwards as well, perhaps more so. Joseph did not violate Mary, not before marriage and certainly not afterwards!
 
Upvote 0

Magnus Maximus

Warrior
Jul 13, 2010
933
265
✟58,516.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You do know you are the one who asked about Her? I merely provided a possible solution to your inquiry. I believe in the Holy Trinity, the Triune God too.

The Blessed Virgin Mary is Special and Holy, isn't She? She's all about God in Her Messages. God this, God that, God left, God right, God up, God down, God here, God there, God in, God out, God front, God back. She's all about God. I just find Her Utterly Terrific.

My thinking is this. If this Woman named Mary is not suppose to be important, and God is Almighty and can do anything He wants, why would He even need to be carried by the Woman in Her Womb? That's just ridiculous.

Angel Gabriel could have just come to Mary and given Her a Baby and tell Her, "This is God, the Son, look after Him. God don't need no human vessel to pop Him out. He is Almighty and can pop in and out of worldly existence just through His Word. So here is Baby Jesus Christ, He has just been popped into my Arms by God the Father and I present Him to you to look after Him because that is God's Will. You are just His adoptive mother, understand woman? Don't go assuming you're more important than anybody else. You're just a nobody looking after the Redeemer of the World. You're not special. I have to go back to God now. Can't spend all day talking to a nobody like you. Make sure you don't pass any of your human, crappy, diseased, sinful nature and condition to Baby Jesus Christ. You will contaminate Him with your nothingness. That will be totally gross and you will ruin the Plan of Redemption for the whole human race. Got it, Mary? Bye." This is what a lot of people say about Her which makes no sense at all to me.

Mary is more than just a mortal woman. I would not be surprised if She had a pre-existent life. If you look at God's attitude in regards to marriage and procreation, it is solemn and serious in nature. So for God to have a Son through this Woman named Mary, this Woman just by that Deed and Act of God Almighty is Holy. This Woman named Mary while married to Joseph but before they lived together put God first before Her own husband, Joseph to have God's Son. She's like committing adultery with God to bear His Son. But it's not adultery only if this Woman named Mary was married to God first. Otherwise God would be breaking His Own Law. So Mary is one spirit and then one flesh with God. Even Jesus Christ, Her Son talks about the Sanctity of Marriage. Joseph was the adopted husband of Mary and adopted father of Jesus because God willed it so. So basically Joseph was looking after God's Wife and Son because God Himself was not able to do so at that particular point in time.

This Woman named Mary is the Spouse and Mother of Almighty God and Has a Spiritual Connection with the Holy Trinity that nobody else have. Angel Gabriel Hailed Her. Angel Gabriel doesn't hail nobodies. Angel Gabriel did not hail Zechariah, the priest, who was just a worshipper of God, that's all. Zechariah despite being righteous in the eyes of God and even prayed for a baby was not able to believe Angel Gabriel while Mary, who was married to Joseph despite hearing the most ridiculous announcement from anybody in Her entire life believed Angel Gabriel.

Anyway, you don't have to believe in Her. It's done by faith, by choice. Jesus Christ is more than enough for most. It's just that I came to faith in Jesus Christ through Her so I'm one of Her son. She has power over me and I like it that way because She teaches me about God.

God bless you.

Simply awesome--possibly the best post I have ever read.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,172
Florida
Visit site
✟811,723.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Ave Maria - Hail Mary. We know of only a few verses from the Gospel to describe her. It would be wrong to worship her. I think some have gone astray imagining themselves to be praying in conversation to Mary, the saints or each other. Some might have gone astray praying with false ideas about God. Women who successfully raise their offspring may be praised, even if they do not hear such praise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I just need to get something cleared up. I feel someone needs to explain where all the exaltation and use of praises commonly offered to God being offered to someone that no one in the bible ever used on a departed saint...:mad: What chapters did we look over, what sins have been made for not recognizing "Virgin", are we going to hell because she's a lot more than we think she is, are we worshiping the doctrinal correct way, biblical correct way or the traditional correct way, is the bible authoritative or not in deciding this "theotokos" issue, who's is the Mary mother of Christ? seriously.

These are not praises that are meant for God only. If you read the whole thing carefully, not only do you see the acknowledgement of the existence of God but also the fact that she is stated as "created".

spiritual Mother of mankind is a title interpreted through scripture. 1st case is with Christ on the Cross in where he gave her to the apostle. "Son behold thy mother..." this was to symbolize that all apostles of Christs where to see her as mother. She obviously can't be the physical mother of christians so in logic she becomes the spiritual mother. It doesn't mean she birthed/created our spirit, but just in reference to who Christ is.

I've heard pastors and other youth leaders get praised for their service to God. I recall one Pastor who on his birthday got greeting cards from his church members stating how close he is to God. How he is the highest person in of that church. How he is a great blessing. How highly valued he is in the church around the neighborhood. Should this be wrong too.

Unless you see words that really state Mary to be a creator - with out any mention of the name of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, then you are taking it way over your head. If you can say good things to other people here on earth for their service to Christ and just being a great person in general then you shouldn't have problems with people saying good things to people in heaven. Especially a person who was chosen by God to be his mother. Remember when you say Christ you are saying God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Linet Kihonge

Shalom
Aug 18, 2015
1,012
229
Nairobi
✟24,980.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
These are not praises that are meant for God only. If you read the whole thing carefully, not only do you see the acknowledgement of the existence of God but also the fact that she is stated as "created".

spiritual Mother of mankind is a title interpreted through scripture. 1st case is with Christ on the Cross in where he gave her to the apostle. "Son behold thy mother..." this was to symbolize that all apostles of Christs where to see her as mother. She obviously can't be the physical mother of christians so in logic she becomes the spiritual mother. It doesn't mean she birthed/created our spirit, but just in reference to who Christ is.

I've heard pastors and other youth leaders get praised for their service to God. I recall one Pastor who on his birthday got greeting cards from his church members stating how close he is to God. How he is the highest person in of that church. How he is a great blessing. How highly valued he is in the church around the neighborhood. Should this be wrong too.

Unless you see words that really state Mary to be a creator - with out any mention of the name of the Father/Son/Holy Spirit, then you are taking it way over your head. If you can say good things to other people here on earth for their service to Christ and just being a great person in general then you shouldn't have problems with people saying good things to people in heaven. Especially a person who was chosen by God to be his mother. Remember when you say Christ you are saying God.

Hi, Cis.jd I don't have an issue theotokos in as far as regarding Mary as the mother of God in the context, "Jesus is God." I do believe she was the most blessed woman and I feel for her for what she had to go through when she saw her son being crucified for something he had not done. I of all the people do not look down on Mary at ALL. She was Christ's mom and Christ meant the whole world to her. I don't need any sacred traditions to tell me that, it's written. I don't believe she's not a worthy mention considering she has been that for a long time.

So, I won't contest her importance in regards to how the Angel Gabriel considered who she was. The only issue I have is the issue of being considered a sinnless person because she gave birth to Christ. No one can prove that she did not consumate her marriage after the birth of Christ or not. The issue of grammar is difficult at this point and I'm not sure if it's in effort of defending the Mariology doctrine or indeed that was the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

All the same, this thing of Mary being sinless fakes Jesus' incarnation!!! It was either he was 100% man and 100% God or just 100% God.
 
Upvote 0

Linet Kihonge

Shalom
Aug 18, 2015
1,012
229
Nairobi
✟24,980.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Regarding what you have underlined: that is not an accurate translation and ironically, I am going to quote Martin Luther of all people:

Martin Luther wrote:

"When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom." (That Jesus was Born a Jew)

In Luther's time, people misunderstood the idiom to think that Joseph and Mary did "know" each other. But the problem is that the Greek simply does not and cannot mean that - and even Luther of all people understood that! In fact, the preposition that is usually translated "until" actually implies a continuation, not a cessation.

For example:
Matthew uses the exact same preposition in Ch. 28 v.20, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world". The same word translated here as "unto" is often translated as "until" in Ch. 1 v.25. In both cases, the preposition does not strictly convey the English meaning of "until". It is easier to explain it than to strictly translate it, as it is an idiom (which, again, even Luther recognized!). Jesus is with us always, not just until the end of the world but afterwards as well, perhaps more so. Joseph did not violate Mary, not before marriage and certainly not afterwards!

Let's use multiple translations

"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus." (NIV)
"but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus." (ESV)
"but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus." (NASB)
"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS." (KJV)
"but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus." (HCSB)

Is there a translation that uses the word differently. Please bring it up if I misquoted the verse.

"unto" has been replaced with "to" and variation of "until" have been "till" unless my English needs serious revitalization I think logic has become expensive at this point in time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dawn7
Upvote 0

Linet Kihonge

Shalom
Aug 18, 2015
1,012
229
Nairobi
✟24,980.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Joseph and Mary were a very hot couple and they slept with each other after Jesus was born.

Let's polish the Grammar that confused CCs.

"....she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit." (NIV)
"... she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit." (ESV)
"..... she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit." (NASB)
".... she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." (KJV)
".... she was pregnant by the Holy Spirit." (HCSB)

Mary never had a child "with" the HOLY SPIRIT but "through" "from" "by" and "of" the Holy Spirit meaning it was nothing like what you say. It was an "in vitro fertilization" process. You embarrass GOD!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0

Daniel9v9

Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Site Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
2,145
1,831
40
London
Visit site
✟600,601.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
It's been interesting reading people's posts, but I'm I right to understand that some hold that Mary is without sin without the merits of Christ?
If so, this is a dangerous claim!

Mary is not God, though worthy of respect - in this we may agree. However, the Holy Bible is crystal clear on that all human beings have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. To teach anything otherwise is the polar opposite of the gospel.
 
Upvote 0

Linet Kihonge

Shalom
Aug 18, 2015
1,012
229
Nairobi
✟24,980.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Listen, teaching the Gospel isn't easy and leading a people into righteousness isn't a walk in the park. So I respect what all clergy have tried to teach their "flock" and more so, the sacrifices made to ensure we all have a sound gospel of the Lord. The only thing I'm having problem with is that Logic has been used to create something that has never been in existence before. This thing is ALIVE and ACTIVE, it does wonders, and more so, it exists in Shrines more than anywhere else.

Therefore, until Scripture supports this "conception stuff" I don't know what we have in our Shrines. It's expensive, it's leading many people into thinking there's a new powerful presence besides the TRIUNE and it's MARY! So at the end of the day, RCC should be responsible for anything that happens that could otherwise contradict scripture and is answerable to anything that's not within the Holy Bible's confines. Therefore, traditions are of sound suppositions but there's nothing like good tradition that's not within sound spirituality and the LORD's word if it isn't consistent. :rage:
 
Upvote 0

Magnus Maximus

Warrior
Jul 13, 2010
933
265
✟58,516.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hi, Cis.jd I don't have an issue theotokos in as far as regarding Mary as the mother of God in the context, "Jesus is God." I do believe she was the most blessed woman and I feel for her for what she had to go through when she saw her son being crucified for something he had not done. I of all the people do not look down on Mary at ALL. She was Christ's mom and Christ meant the whole world to her. I don't need any sacred traditions to tell me that, it's written. I don't believe she's not a worthy mention considering she has been that for a long time.

So, I won't contest her importance in regards to how the Angel Gabriel considered who she was. The only issue I have is the issue of being considered a sinnless person because she gave birth to Christ. No one can prove that she did not consumate her marriage after the birth of Christ or not. The issue of grammar is difficult at this point and I'm not sure if it's in effort of defending the Mariology doctrine or indeed that was the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

All the same, this thing of Mary being sinless fakes Jesus' incarnation!!! It was either he was 100% man and 100% God or just 100% God.

And [the Archangel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greetings this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.


Mary had to be sinless--nothing inpure could carry God--she was the new ark of the covenant as Jesus (who of course she bore) was the new covenant. She could not be in sin.

Second Gabriel said "full of Grace and she was in the Lords favor" Therefore (based on the time) she was under the law not grace, how could she be full of grace, and how if she was not already filled with God's grace could she keep every aspect of the law to be in God's favor. Therefore she had to be sinless.

and of course she was a perpetual virgin- how could any stain come upon the ark of the covenant

I just found this: https://www.stpeterslist.com/2022/4-biblical-reasons-mary-is-the-new-ark-of-the-covenant/

How is Mary a More Perfect Ark?
The New Testament perfects the Old, and whereas the old Ark of the Covenant had been lost, God provided a new and more perfect one – an immaculate woman. The Ark moves from being a human artifact of wood and gold, to a the highest honored and highest human creature3 The presence of God is perfected insofar as the Second Person of the Trinity becomes Incarnate, and his mission is the forgiveness and satisfaction of mankind.

Why does the Angel say “Full of Grace?”
Entire bulwarks of the Catholic tradition are built upon this phrase, but a brief sketch is necessary to understand Mary’s unique role in salvation history. Grace – as we know it – did not exist before the victory of Christ; moreover, the Old Testament sacrifices forgave sins, but they could not offer proper satisfaction for them – they left man in an infinite debt due to sin. The angel stating “full of grace” points to Mary as Immaculate, the pure vessel of Christ’s Incarnation, the virgin and sinless flesh from which Christ would draw his human nature. Mary was “full of grace” because the was born without original sin and had remained sinless in order to be the New Ark of the Covenant, the Mother of God. It is important to note that Mary’s grace is still rooted in Christ, and is orientated toward the mission of salvation. Both Mary’s biblical roles as the New Ark of the Covenant and of the New Eve articulate a need for her to be perfect in relationship to Christ, not to mention the greatest need of all – it was from her Christ drew his humanity.

Christ is the eternal Logos, the word Incarnate the Ark contained the word of God as did Mary.


2. The Contents of the Arks

The Word of God in the Stone Tablets 4
The Word of God Incarnate


And he took the [tablets of the] covenant and put it into the ark, and put the poles on the ark, and set the mercy seat above on the ark;

Christ’s perfection of the Tablets of the Covenant or more commonly called the Tablets of the Ten Commandments is multifaceted. The most complete perfection is the overall understanding the the primary “Word of God” is not Scripture, but Christ. Christ is the Living Word, the Logos.5

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. […] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

Moreover, the Tablets of the Covenant represented the old convenant and its laws. Christ comes and perfects those laws, most notably during his Sermon on the Mount.6 Changing the Laws requires the proper authority, and to change divine laws requires divine authority. Christ, as the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity, obviously had the divine authority and he demonstrated it both as the Eternal King in the lineage of King David and as the Eternal Priest in the lineage of Melchizedek.7


 
  • Like
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Magnus Maximus

Warrior
Jul 13, 2010
933
265
✟58,516.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
“Be mindful of us, most holy virgin, who after childbirth didst remain virgin; and grant to us for these small words great gifts from the riches of they graces, O thou full of grace. Accept them as though they were true and adequate praises in they honor; and if there is in them any virtue and any praise, we offer them as a hymn from ourselves and from all creatures to thee, full of grace, Lady, Queen, Mistress, Mother of God, and Ark of sanctification” (Orat. In Deip. Annuntiat, nn. 13, 14. Int. Opp. S. Athanasii) (Blessed Virgin, p. 80). St. Athanasius (c. 296-373)

Of course Mary is a queen- As Jesus descended from the royal line of David and would sit of the davidic throne as King of Israel. In the Hebrew tradition the Mother of the King would be titled as Queen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It's been interesting reading people's posts, but I'm I right to understand that some hold that Mary is without sin without the merits of Christ?
That's correct. This is the belief, and it's a required belief in the Roman Catholic Church, having been asserted by what the church considers to be an "infallible" Papal decree.

Although Scripture doesn't support the idea, the theory is that God the Father kept Mary from being conceived in sin like every other mortal is...because he knew that she would be the Earthly mother of Jesus. And then there is the belief that she never did commit any sins of her own at any time throughout the rest of her life. That's also without Scriptural support.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
scripture does support Mary was and is sinless
No, it doesn't. Those who claim some proof are forced to create some strained analogies from figurative and poetic language found here or there in the Old Testament and on to the Book of Revelation. Then they string them together and say that they've interpreted something as indicating something about Mary--even though none of it mentions Mary. I could prove that unicorns and Godzilla exist if I were to take this approach to Scripture.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,294
6,495
63
✟596,843.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The scripture states that Mary "found favor with God"
It does not say she was sinless anymore than Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses, Daniel, Elijah, Enoch, Noah, or any other of the magnificent and grand people of the bible were.

No man is without sin. No woman either as it is taken to be the proverbial "man" meaning anyone who is a member of mankind.

She found favor with God and God knew that Joseph would not activate the traditional punishment for women who had children out of wedlock and, especially, not his (Joseph's) child. Joseph "her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily."

Joseph could not have been a "just man" if he had slept with Mary and this was his child. If he was going to divorce her, he would have been a hypocrite if he was the father or "knew" Mary. This was not Joseph's child. Mary was a virgin. She was not sinless. Joseph needed an angel to explain what was expected of him and accept God's plan for the two of them.

Mary was righteous and the proper woman for God to choose for the mother of His son Jesus to be born to and be God made man and savior of the world.

Also, Mary and all the saints are dead. As they were very special people, they were all still just human and sinful people. They cannot hear our prayers and in fact we are not to pray to them. We are only to pray to God and Jesus Christ is our mediator between God and men.



1 Timothy 2:5King James Version (KJV)

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Before Christ's death on the cross people had to make sacrifices and have the priest make atonement for them in the Holy of Hollies. At the time of Christ's death, when He commanded His spirit into God's hands, the veil at the temple was torn from top to bottom. This signified that we no longer had separation between God and men. We now had Christ as our savior and mediator.

I need no priest now, I can talk directly to Jesus. I will not pray to Mary or any Saint as this is unacceptable and, also, of no use as they cannot hear my prayer or answer it. They are merely humans. Special humans, yes, but sinful humans who were in need of salvation just like you and me.

So, Mary was righteous as was Noah. But sinless, no, a virgin at the birth of Christ, yes. However, she had other children after Jesus.

Mark 6:3King James Version (KJV)
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,703
1,536
New York, NY
✟153,657.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Hi, Cis.jd I don't have an issue theotokos in as far as regarding Mary as the mother of God in the context, "Jesus is God." I do believe she was the most blessed woman and I feel for her for what she had to go through when she saw her son being crucified for something he had not done. I of all the people do not look down on Mary at ALL. She was Christ's mom and Christ meant the whole world to her. I don't need any sacred traditions to tell me that, it's written. I don't believe she's not a worthy mention considering she has been that for a long time.

So, I won't contest her importance in regards to how the Angel Gabriel considered who she was. The only issue I have is the issue of being considered a sinnless person because she gave birth to Christ. No one can prove that she did not consumate her marriage after the birth of Christ or not. The issue of grammar is difficult at this point and I'm not sure if it's in effort of defending the Mariology doctrine or indeed that was the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

All the same, this thing of Mary being sinless fakes Jesus' incarnation!!! It was either he was 100% man and 100% God or just 100% God.

Ok, i see. I have no problems with your opinion or skepticism on certain things about Mary, such as her being a full virgin. As weird for a Catholic to say, i really don't understand the big deal as to why it is important if she had sex with Joseph after Jesus' birth. I honestly don't know and don't take any issue on it either way.

However I don't think that Mary being sinless fakes Jesus' incarnation. If we think reflect on scripture, God always had to be surrounded by pure purity. For example, the whole burning bush and the whole Arc of the Covenant. God had to have the things he actually touched be fully clean from sinful hands.. so it would make sense that the womb in which he would manifest in flesh from had to be fully clean as well.

One actual support of Mary being sinless is the fact that Jesus referred to her as "Woman". This was a title that is referenced in Genesis when God said to the serpent "I would put enmity between you and "The Woman"...". It's just like the title "son of Man" in which Jesus referenced himself as.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gabriel Anton
Upvote 0

Linet Kihonge

Shalom
Aug 18, 2015
1,012
229
Nairobi
✟24,980.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Acts 6:8, "Now Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people."

And [the Archangel Gabriel] came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greetings this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.


Mary had to be sinless--nothing inpure could carry God--she was the new ark of the covenant as Jesus (who of course she bore) was the new covenant. She could not be in sin.

Second Gabriel said "full of Grace and she was in the Lords favor" Therefore (based on the time) she was under the law not grace, how could she be full of grace, and how if she was not already filled with God's grace could she keep every aspect of the law to be in God's favor. Therefore she had to be sinless.

and of course she was a perpetual virgin- how could any stain come upon the ark of the covenant

I just found this: https://www.stpeterslist.com/2022/4-biblical-reasons-mary-is-the-new-ark-of-the-covenant/

How is Mary a More Perfect Ark?
The New Testament perfects the Old, and whereas the old Ark of the Covenant had been lost, God provided a new and more perfect one – an immaculate woman. The Ark moves from being a human artifact of wood and gold, to a the highest honored and highest human creature3 The presence of God is perfected insofar as the Second Person of the Trinity becomes Incarnate, and his mission is the forgiveness and satisfaction of mankind.

Why does the Angel say “Full of Grace?”
Entire bulwarks of the Catholic tradition are built upon this phrase, but a brief sketch is necessary to understand Mary’s unique role in salvation history. Grace – as we know it – did not exist before the victory of Christ; moreover, the Old Testament sacrifices forgave sins, but they could not offer proper satisfaction for them – they left man in an infinite debt due to sin. The angel stating “full of grace” points to Mary as Immaculate, the pure vessel of Christ’s Incarnation, the virgin and sinless flesh from which Christ would draw his human nature. Mary was “full of grace” because the was born without original sin and had remained sinless in order to be the New Ark of the Covenant, the Mother of God. It is important to note that Mary’s grace is still rooted in Christ, and is orientated toward the mission of salvation. Both Mary’s biblical roles as the New Ark of the Covenant and of the New Eve articulate a need for her to be perfect in relationship to Christ, not to mention the greatest need of all – it was from her Christ drew his humanity.

Christ is the eternal Logos, the word Incarnate the Ark contained the word of God as did Mary.


2. The Contents of the Arks

The Word of God in the Stone Tablets 4
The Word of God Incarnate

And he took the [tablets of the] covenant and put it into the ark, and put the poles on the ark, and set the mercy seat above on the ark;

Christ’s perfection of the Tablets of the Covenant or more commonly called the Tablets of the Ten Commandments is multifaceted. The most complete perfection is the overall understanding the the primary “Word of God” is not Scripture, but Christ. Christ is the Living Word, the Logos.5

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. […] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

Moreover, the Tablets of the Covenant represented the old convenant and its laws. Christ comes and perfects those laws, most notably during his Sermon on the Mount.6 Changing the Laws requires the proper authority, and to change divine laws requires divine authority. Christ, as the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity, obviously had the divine authority and he demonstrated it both as the Eternal King in the lineage of King David and as the Eternal Priest in the lineage of Melchizedek.7
 
Upvote 0