A Controversial Review of the Immaculate

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

If you claim Mary is a sinner, you dishonor the Word of God.

sinner
ˈsɪnə/
noun
plural noun: sinners

1. a person who transgresses against divine law by committing an immoral act or acts.

The Word of God states that Mary is a Servant of the Lord.

38 Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.

handmaid
ˈhan(d)meɪd/
noun
archaic

1. a female servant.
   • a subservient partner or element.
     "this is not to say that the researcher simply becomes the handmaid of the practitioner"

The Word of God states Jesus Christ as Servant of the Lord.

15 When Jesus realized this, he withdrew from that place. Many (people) followed him, and he cured them all,

16 but he warned them not to make him known.

17 This was to fulfill what had been spoken through Isaiah the prophet:

18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

If you say Mary who is a Servant of the Lord is a sinner, then you are also saying Jesus Christ who is a Servant of the Lord is a sinner.

If you do not know the difference between a Servant of the Lord and a sinner, you might as well flush your Bible down the toilet.

God bless you.

 

[Alithis]

It's been interesting reading people's posts, but I'm I right to understand that some hold that Mary is without sin without the merits of Christ?
If so, this is a dangerous claim!

Mary is not God, though worthy of respect - in this we may agree. However, the Holy Bible is crystal clear on that all human beings have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. To teach anything otherwise is the polar opposite of the gospel.

the origins of this ,mystical being they have renamed "mary" is nothing short of shockingly anti chrsit

 

[JacksBratt]

I will drag this thread behind until I understand what this verse meant,

"But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus."

ENGLISH 101
I didn't know the market sold kales and other vegetables until I went there.
I was not aware she was flying to London until I bumped into her on the streets.
The professor was not aware of the new student until he looked up.
The car's Chauffeur didn't see the red sign until he passed the crossed sign.

Now what does the word insinuate. It says, that the professor had no clue there was a new student and only became aware of him when he looked up.

Enough!

"In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

Joseph was the descendant of David not her. But she was most favored to have carried Jesus. It doesn't mean sinless it means "FAVORED"

Gen 6:8, "8But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD."

Actually, Mary was a descendant of David. Both Joseph and Mary were King Davids descendants. Of course there is controversy of Mathew's genealogy of Jesus' descendants compared to Luke's genealogy.

Either way, in our earthly human arguments over this, we will have to understand that Jesus is the heir to Davids throne. If not then our faith is based on smoke and mirrors, anything but solid facts and truth. It then leaves us lost.

 

[mikpat]

Over the years and on almost every religious forum some one eventually comes along and voices some opinion on Marian devotions, depending on the denomination of course. . Protestantism held in contempt what had been bedrock concepts of the faith, including Marian devotions.
Also I might add, depending on the forum and monitors, attacks on devotion to the Mother of God could become vicious, full of redicule, calumny and abuse. One the their favorites consisted of babbling about how Catholics kneel before a statue of Mary and worship.
BTW——-uhhh I don't think "trangenderism issues, abortifacients, drones, public urination, birth control pills, are in the Bible but if you are a sola scriptura, Im sure one can find some phrase that will satisfy.
If any one is interested, suggest reading the "The Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary".

Sancta Maria——-Ora Pro Nobis.

 

[JacksBratt]

The Word of God states that Mary is a Servant of the Lord.

I am a servant of the Lord too. As are my Christian friends. I am still a sinner.

 

[JacksBratt]

You are incorrect

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you."

The Greek kecharitomene means favored by grace, graced. Its tense suggests a permanent state of being "highly favored," thus full of grace. Charity, the divine love within us, comes from the same root. God is infinite Goodness, infinite Love. Mary is perfect created goodness, filled to the limit of her finite being with grace or charity.

Blessed art thou among women

Luke 1:41-42a "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women..."

Luke 1:48 "For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed."

Among all women is a way to say the highest/greatest etc. of a group in Semitic languages (these words would likely have been spoken in Aramaic). Mary is being called the greatest of all women, greater than Ruth, greater than Sarah, greater than EVE! Since Eve was created immaculate (without original sin), Mary must have been conceived immaculate. And, although Eve fell into sin by her own free will, Mary must have corresponded to God's grace and remained sinless. She could not otherwise be greater than Eve. Thus, as the Fathers of the Church unanimously assert, Mary is the New Eve who restores womanhood to God's original intention and cooperates with the New Adam, her Son, for the Redemption of the world.

https://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/rosary/scripture.htm

Sorry, not one translation that is common to the churches around here, pen that as a translation of scripture. We must be careful not to inscert words when they are not there.

The KJV does not say Full of grace or even Hail Mary.

It says:

“Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God."

 

[Albion]

You are incorrect

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.

Luke 1:28 "And coming to her, he said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you."

But if we click on that link in your own post, we find that it says "highly favored."

 

[mikpat]

But you were not the Mother of God. The understanding is that Christ Jesus, befitting who He was/is at the time of the birth and being raised by Mary, that the Mother of God be sinless…..

Dear JacksBratt, I am happy for you that you consider yourself a "servant of the Lord."

As for me,,,,just a struggling follower of Christ, sinful, yes of course.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Peace be with you.

If you claim Mary is a sinner, you dishonor the Word of God.

sinner
ˈsɪnə/
noun
plural noun: sinners

1. a person who transgresses against divine law by committing an immoral act or acts.

The Word of God states that Mary is a Servant of the Lord.

38 Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word." Then the angel departed from her.

handmaid
ˈhan(d)meɪd/
noun
archaic

1. a female servant.
   • a subservient partner or element.
     "this is not to say that the researcher simply becomes the handmaid of the practitioner"

The Word of God states Jesus Christ as Servant of the Lord.

15 When Jesus realized this, he withdrew from that place. Many (people) followed him, and he cured them all,

16 but he warned them not to make him known.

17 This was to fulfill what had been spoken through Isaiah the prophet:

18 "Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom I delight; I shall place my spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

If you say Mary who is a Servant of the Lord is a sinner, then you are also saying Jesus Christ who is a Servant of the Lord is a sinner.

If you do not know the difference between a Servant of the Lord and a sinner, you might as well flush your Bible down the toilet.

God bless you.

"Moses, the servant of the LORD" Joshua 12:6

"After these things, Joshua son of Nun, the servant of the
LORD, died at the age of a hundred and ten." Joshua 24(29)

servant of the LORD doesn't mean that.

 

[FaeryChild]

The issue is whether or not one really believes in the Incarnation. If you really believe God entered into humanity, that Mary became pregnant with God... then it logically follows that God nourished her body - that God and Mary shared everything the same way a woman does when pregnant with a child. Thus, Mary had to be sinless, at the very least, before becoming pregnant with God. Likewise, after having had God inside of her, it would have been violation to have had carnal relations.

These things are not things that Catholics invented in the Dark Ages to be a pain - these are things that logically follow from a genuine belief in the Incarnation. They have also been believed since the beginning of the Church. To compromise on these issues is to slip into a Gnosticism which fails to recognize the very earthy, very fleshly, very bodily understanding of the Incarnation. Jesus' flesh comes from Mary's flesh.

Accept the Incarnation and all that must logically follow because of it.

The all-holy Trinity is worshiped through the veneration of the all-Immaculate Theotokos!

 

[JacksBratt]

But you were not the Mother of God. The understanding is that Christ Jesus, befitting who He was/is at the time of the birth and being raised by Mary, that the Mother of God be sinless…..

Dear JacksBratt, I am happy for you that you consider yourself a "servant of the Lord."

As for me,,,,just a struggling follower of Christ, sinful, yes of course.

As Christians we are all part of the body of Christ and His servants. We don't have to be sinless to serve Him.

If Mary was sinless it would void this scripture:
Romans 3:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

In the Christmas song "Mary Did You Know" the lyrics even state that Christ delivered her:

Mary, did you know
That your baby boy, would one day walk on water?
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy, would save our sons and daughters?
Did you know
That your baby boy, has come to make you new?
And this child that you delivered will soon deliver you

I know its just the lyrics to a song but it indicates that it is common knowledge that even Jesus' mother needed to be saved by faith in her own son.

If she did not need to be saved, if she was not a sinner then she could have died for our sins. Christ was the only human to live a sinless life. He lived in the flesh of a human, was tempted as all men are, remained sinless and as a result was worthy of bearing my sins on the cross. If they could have found one sin in Him the whole thing would have been a farce.

Mary was special to God and chosen to be the earthly mother of Christ but she was not sinless. Not before or after Christs birth. She needed salvation just like you and I. She was judged by Christ as all humans are, at the time of her death. We do not pray to her, pray for her or worship her. That would be sinful.

 

[chevyontheriver]

It's been interesting reading people's posts, but I'm I right to understand that some hold that Mary is without sin without the merits of Christ?
If so, this is a dangerous claim!

It would be a very dangerous claim, but not a claim that any thinking Catholic would ever make. Mary has been redeemed by the merits of Christ, at least according to Catholic teaching.

Mary is not God, though worthy of respect - in this we may agree. However, the Holy Bible is crystal clear on that all human beings have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. To teach anything otherwise is the polar opposite of the gospel.

Mary is not God. You do have that right. And Mary is redeemed according to Catholic teaching, not by her own merits but entirely by her Son. She would have fallen short of the glory of God but for the intervention of God before her birth. We believe she was blessed before she was born, and thus no exception to the rule that everyone needs Jesus but that she did not actually sin. You can believe what you want about her but we see her as kecharitomene, endowed with grace, following Luke chapter 1:28.

You say all humans have sinned. What would you say about a three day old baby? How about a three day old baby that was baptized right after birth?

 

[chevyontheriver]

(And people wonder why I have such disdain for Protestant "pastors" and "teachers" who deceive their people and teach falsehood as if it is nuggets of truth!!!)

Take a chill pill. Breath. Say your prayers. Nothing you can do here is going to change anybody. It's just going to leave you with burnt hair and them disappointed they couldn't get you to renounce your faith. They know Mary is a sinner and will not be convinced otherwise until some considerable time after they enter purgatory and have it all explained to them. They will spend most of their purgation denying purgatory for that matter.

 

[Light of the East]

Read Matthew 15:1-14

You don't even know what you posted, do you?

You said in your post (which I hi-lited) that we are not to either add to or subtract from the Word of God. Those exact words are only found in Revelation.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What you posted doesn't say anything even close to what is in Revelation.

What Jesus condemns is the traditions of men. Since you are a Protestant, I shouldn't expect you to understand the difference between the traditions of men and Holy Tradition, so I will explain it to you.

If a Baptist preacher runs around teaching that God is only pleased when preachers wear polyester suits, that is tradition of men. It has no historic background and no reference to the Scriptures.

When the Church taught at the Council of Nicea that Jesus is truly God Incarnate, opposing the heresy of Arias, that was based on Holy Tradition. What does that mean? Holy Tradition means that this is what the Church has taught and believed from the beginning .... even when there was NO BIBLE.

Do you understand that much of what was taught in the first four centuries, including the writings of the Apostles and St. Paul, was not considered "scripture" and was transmitted orally. The Pharisees, no doubt, said the same thing you are saying "Oh, you are making stuff up and adding it to the Word of God."

There was no canon of Scripture in the fourth century. It would not become canon until almost 100 years later. That is why Holy Tradition was and is still so important. It is what the Church has always taught.

Now....as far as "adding to the Word of God," that is a PROTESTANT DISTINCTIVE.


PROTESTANT DISTINCTIVES NEVER TAUGHT BY THE APOSTLES: (i.e. false man-made doctrines)

Rapture of the Church (No such thing exists)
Lord's Supper as crackers and grape juice (Bible calls for bread and wine, not saltines and Welch's)
Lord's Supper not the Body and Blood of Christ in truth (Jesus said "This IS my Body...this IS my Blood")
Baptism does not save ("The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us" 1 Peter 3:21)
No central authority or single body of Christ called "The Church" (Bible speaks of "The Church" not 40,000 churches)
Making a decision for Jesus saves you (Cannot find the words "Make a decision for Christ" in the Bible. False doctrine invented by C.G. Finney, apostate heretic evangelist of the 1800's)
No bishops in Evangelicalism (The Bible lists "bishop" as an office of the Church)
No incense in worship (Revelation shows the heavenly worship using incense)
Denial of the priesthood and hence, the Sacraments (Nowhere in the Bible does it say directly "There is no longer any need for priests)
Forensic justification (faith alone-legal forgiveness) (Luther And Calvin's heresy, based on atrocious interpretation of the Greek in Romans 3 and 4)

there's more...that's enough

 

[Geralt]

The issue is whether or not one really believes in the Incarnation. If you really believe God entered into humanity, that Mary became pregnant with God... then it logically follows that God nourished her body - that God and Mary shared everything the same way a woman does when pregnant with a child. Thus, Mary had to be sinless, at the very least, before becoming pregnant with God. Likewise, after having had God inside of her, it would have been violation to have had carnal relations.

These things are not things that Catholics invented in the Dark Ages to be a pain - these are things that logically follow from a genuine belief in the Incarnation. They have also been believed since the beginning of the Church. To compromise on these issues is to slip into a Gnosticism which fails to recognize the very earthy, very fleshly, very bodily understanding of the Incarnation. Jesus' flesh comes from Mary's flesh.

Accept the Incarnation and all that must logically follow because of it.

The all-holy Trinity is worshiped through the veneration of the all-Immaculate Theotokos!

'the logically follows' is the root of all heresy. the truth of the matter is Mary became a nobody after the incarnation, not even the apostles mentioned or highlighted her name or role in any of the epistles. what the rcc did is made fantastic claims, stories, and 'logically follows' argument from single line verses in scripture and made this to be at par with scripture.

so why did the apostles never highlighted any of her superlative roles (assuming the rcc is correct) in their epistles ? here is the bottomline -> because if one will ignore the rcc's version of mary and her supertitles and roles and throw it out the window, the gospel remains the same. marianism has no value and is actually a deterrent to the gospel of jesus christ. its a total waste of time and devotion (which basically classifies it as idolatry) in this case as it diverts giving glory to God himself.

 

[chevyontheriver]

But if we click on that link in your own post, we find that it says "highly favored."

When we reference Scripture in this forum the forum software adds a link all on it's own to the text according to the KJV. It's not like a link to the KJV was ever intended by the poster. That the KJV does not have it right is not the fault of the poster.

 

[dawn7]

There's no need to be so beligerent. I suggested you read Matthew because you base much on the traditions and precepts of man.

 

[dawn7]

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[dawn7]

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[dawn7]

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